I understand what you mean that's why i still put 2 pcs. But they have 4 sensei's divining top that you won't counter anyway. With top you won't get any information and basically make them have a single sided howling mine. Not to mention they have brainstorm as well, I just hate it when after 6 turns they have a full grip while you run out of gas. Your opinion is appreciated though, I hope some other UR delver players post their opinion on this, well when I side in and out the choice is spell pierce or goblin guide. So it might be an argument about these 2 cards.Originally Posted by H3llsp4wn
There was even one time I tried to side out all creatures lol and just burn them to the face while protecting the board from counterbalance. Worked once, but failed another time.
Two pieces won't do it, since you ALWAYS want to apply pressure as fast as possible. Countering Tops is something I like to do against Miracle players, as it basically blanks a lot of their cards or makes them significantly weaker. Not to mention to screw with their game plan of being in control and get answers in time.
Hey hellspawn, any advice on what you do with a counter top miracle match up? how do you sideboard and what is the strategy that you use?
Thanks! I think cutting guides is not a good idea, the key in this matchup IMO will be to apply early pressure then resolve a Sulfuric Vortex.
To force or not to force? That is the question.
I've also begun cutting Goblin Guide. Only because I've shifted to a CB-Top package.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Forked Bolt
3 Price of Progress
3 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Ponder
3 Volcanic Island
4 Island
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
The idea is to play the same creature package without Goblin Guide + Burn spells 5-x. Instead, I've played Price of Progress as my main finisher, and a Counterbalance soft lock. The only matchup where you DON'T want CB is Maverick, and certainly this deck would be weaker to G/w, but it can be the nuts against Rug, U/w, and all sorts of combo decks. The cards you really don't want against Control are the Burn Spells right?
In general, you'll need to use them on their life total, which is card disadvantage. Creatures are better, because at least they demand an answer. Delver into Counterbalance puts a control opponent on his heels, and very quickly. Now he should respond by killing your delver, but then does he allow counterbalance? How prepared are enemy control decks for CB from the Aggro player in that matchup?
Thoughts on this list? It's definitely not a burn deck...
Well, I think we have a better game against combo with the countermagic than without it, but I don't like playing the "Do you have the Force" lottery at any point in the game; it just doesn't make me comfortable. I feel as though playing the current countermagic suite gives us a losing percentage against combo in general (although it depends heavily on which combo deck we're discussing; I think we're positive against Dredge, slightly negative against Reanimator, and very negative against Storm and Sneak/Show) and devoting zero sideboard slots to beating it only makes the situation worse.
I feel as though, if you want to beat combo, you need to devote sideboard slots to it, and if not, then you may as well play a more streamlined maindeck and use those 10-12 sideboard slots you're using for the transformational sideboard on better spells.
That said, of course, my sideboard has the same number of anti-combo slots as yours does. Just because I'm not sure you're doing it right doesn't mean that I'm sure I'm doing it right.
Interesting take. My issue with it is that, on a list-vs-list comparison, you're basically playing RUG circa GP Indianapolis, except you're playing Price of Progress instead of Tarmogoyf. I think I know which of those 2 cards I'd like to be playing, and it's not red. Furthermore, if you consider the numbers involved, Counterbalance actually does stone nothing against Miracle Control, contrary to your statement. Remember that a Terminus cast for 1 still has a CMC of 6.I've also begun cutting Goblin Guide. Only because I've shifted to a CB-Top package.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Forked Bolt
3 Price of Progress
3 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Ponder
3 Volcanic Island
4 Island
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
The idea is to play the same creature package without Goblin Guide + Burn spells 5-x. Instead, I've played Price of Progress as my main finisher, and a Counterbalance soft lock. The only matchup where you DON'T want CB is Maverick, and certainly this deck would be weaker to G/w, but it can be the nuts against Rug, U/w, and all sorts of combo decks. The cards you really don't want against Control are the Burn Spells right?
In general, you'll need to use them on their life total, which is card disadvantage. Creatures are better, because at least they demand an answer. Delver into Counterbalance puts a control opponent on his heels, and very quickly. Now he should respond by killing your delver, but then does he allow counterbalance? How prepared are enemy control decks for CB from the Aggro player in that matchup?
Thoughts on this list? It's definitely not a burn deck...
The strategy is pretty much the standard procedure: Apply pressure and try to keep them from either sticking a CounterTop lock or clearing the board.
I board in two Sulfuric Vortex, because Miracles is a VERY slow deck and CMC3 has a high chance to go through a CounterTop. Two blasts come in as well.
Depending on the player and list I board out a mix of PoP, a Ponder and a FoW or a Spell Pierce.
I like to keep a decent number of counters so I don't get blown out. I don't want to witness any miracles and getting your clock removed sucks too. ;)
My meta is filled with Miracle and CounterTop in general, so I'll swap my Submerges for Thunderous Wrath, Rift Bolt or something similar (CMC > 2).
With miracles filling the meta my SB looks like this:
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Smash to Smithereens
2 Pyroblast
1 Spell Pierce
1 Price of Progress
3 Thunderous Wrath
My 60 is same with Yours Karaxu.
Ok thanks for the advice. I know the top is a key part of his deck but without balance top ain't that useful really. For me it's kinda hard to counter the Top, my counter suite on game 2 is 3 Pyroblast, 4 Spell Pierce, 1 Daze (If I'm playing). I take out Force of Will so I don't get 2 for 1 often because Countertop Miracles is like Stoneblade. Funny thing, loading up on more high cmc burn really gets the job done. I'll find out next Thursday if my strategy will still work :)
My sideboard looks like this:
3 Pyroblast
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Smash to Smithereens
4 Surgical Extraction
1 Fireblast
2 Thunderous Wrath
1 Force of Will
Main Deck is standard Andrew Schneider List but I placed the 4th Spell Pierce.
Top gives so much value, it's insane. It might not be obvious, but digging for answers, land drops and such is all the Miracle deck wants to do.I know the top is a key part of his deck but without balance top ain't that useful really.
I don't like Daze in the MU, because they can easily play around it. I thought about Fireblast too, but running it into a CB->Terminus leaves you with -2 lands, while Wrath just makes you tap a Mountain. Of course, the setup sucks, but often games against Miracle end up "grindy", which makes Wrath easier to miracle.
I didn't even consider countertop when I was adding the burn to my board, and going over 1 cmc seems like good idea. Hmm, riftbolt is sweet, but bad against stifle. I guess I have to try thunderous wrath.
Wrath isn't that good against Stifle either (I understand that it's going into your hand, but it still sucks, if you had to set it up), but this isn't an issue against Miracle. My meta is pretty limited, so I can nearly ignore Canadian and other Stifle lists (there's a max. of 1 Canadian). Don't forget, that you can cast Rift Bolt for 3 without the fear of Stifle anyway, although tapping out and getting to 3 isn't something you want to or can do against Canadian.
Anyway, I am still pondering between the two...will have to test some more in the upcoming tournaments.
Does anyone actually even play Stifle anymore?
EDIT: Also Thunderous Wrath is super-duper awful against Stifle. They can Stifle the Miracle trigger and strand the burn spell in your hand. Not quite as awful as Rift Bolt, but I'd say that if Rift Bolt is unplayable due to Stifle, then so is Wrath.
Last edited by Ertai87; 08-21-2012 at 06:38 PM.
Problem is it's really hard to like counter a 1 cost artifact so I'm thinking lay down threat turn one then counter the counterbalance. Yeah but I don't really like running 3 Thunderous Wrath so I run 1 Fireblast. Casting both of them on the same turn is sweet as well. I'll post results on the match up.
This is the current list im working on!
Creatures 14
4 delver of secret
4 vexing devil
4 snapcaster mage
2 goblin guide
Instant/sorcery 28
4 lightning bolt
3 chain lightning
3 thunderous wrath
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 daze
4 force of will
2 vapor snag/price of progress
land 18
4x tropical island
4x scalding tarn
2xIsland
2xmountain
3xflooded strand
2x wooded foothill
1x arid mesa
Been trying to work with vexing devil for a few weeks now and ended up looking at a deck they call *FIREFLY* I would need help on building a sideboard any info or feedback are welcome !(first post on thesource)
I think your Tropical Islands should be Volcanic Islands. Also, I would never drop down to 2 Goblin Guides. In my opinion this card is amazing in U/R-Delver. I do not like Snapcaster Mage in this deck, especially in such a an aggressive build as yours. It simply requires too much mana. So my suggestion is to cut 2 Snapcaster for 2 Goblin Guides.
So they just stifle the miracle trigger, I'm not very good at this. And I think stifle has been showing up less and less.
So I've been pondering more on how to approach the UW miracle matchup, I've thought about Runeflare Trap, with them using brainstorm and Jace, that is enough to cast the trap for its alternate cost, too bad the trap's CMC is 6 they could still counter it via counterbalance with terminus.
To force or not to force? That is the question.
I tried that aswell but came back to 4 snapcaster. It give me more mid game options with the amount of instant and sorcery Im pitching early game.
Don't ever cut Goblin Guide in the main deck until something better comes along. At the end of the day U/R Delver is still a burn deck with some counters to not lose to combo. I agree with you Snapcaster Mage is the best card in the deck so you can't really cut that. I would suggest cutting Vexing Devil to be honest.
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