Miracle Control

[sauce]

I have had problems with the mirror, any way to get above 50-50? It seems first turn top just wins it. Would you force of will that sucker?

yes, this has been the gospel truth in cbtop mirrors since forever. must fow the top.

[Guy I Don't Know]

Koby, are you being serious?

I think a list is in order to give you better advice, I personally have not seen a problem playing against goblins, Although I do play three entreat the angels which stellar in the matchup, so how about post your list and we can see what we are working with.

[Anusien]

I have had problems with the mirror, any way to get above 50-50? It seems first turn top just wins it. Would you force of will that sucker?

I usually don't, but I have some trump in my deck to break Countertop locks. I save Force to stop their trumps. Counterbalance occupies this interesting place in the mirror where it's usually not that great.

[Guy I Don't Know]

I usually don't, but I have some trump in my deck to break Countertop locks. I save Force to stop their trumps. Counterbalance occupies this interesting place in the mirror where it's usually not that great.

When you say trumps, do you mean engineered explosives or oblivion ring? What cards do you play that trump counterbalance?

[TarmoX]

Koby, are you being serious?







And from Max Sjoblom's GP Ghent Top 8 report: http://www.gatheringmagic.com/maxsjo...rt-1-the-deck/
"Among the currently popular other decks, the only really bad matchup is Goblins,..."

http://www.gatheringmagic.com/maxsjo...he-tournament/
"When my opponent played a turn-one Skirk Prospector, I felt that I was in trouble. Goblins is the worst matchup for this deck, as I discussed in the strategy article."


Maybe you're a better Miracle player than these other guys. If you're right, then this deck has virtually no bad matchups, and there'd be no reason to play any other deck but this one.

My friend is a good player........ then i agree with Kl'rt and hope someone can help me to find some way (cards or playstile) for dealing with these haste fucking little monster

[Koby]

Koby, are you being serious?

Quite serious. I'm playing Kobie Spaeth's list with SFM. Terminus to reset the board, SFM to get Batterskull. Win the game. I'm also playing 1 EE maindeck, 2 more SB, and 1 Pyroclasm to add more sweepers. I'm ALSO playing 3 SCM to rebuy StP. The deck essentially becomes all removal after sideboard. I can understand versions that are dicking around with Counterbalance maindeck will be having problems. That's to be expected since Cavern of Souls just takes a giant shit on your deck.

EDIT: and AEther Vial.

If you guys don't remember this time last summer when Batterskull was printed - every tribal deck just bricked. This isn't much different from that vein.

[csy]

in all fairness Koby, what you're playing would be closer to UW/x blade than Miracle control.

[Kl'rt]

in all fairness Koby, what you're playing would be closer to UW/x blade than Miracle control.

Agreed. Spaeth's list is actually Blade Control with Terminus rather than the typical Miracle lists discussed in this thread.

Goblins have a lot of trouble fighting Blade Control.

[Guy I Don't Know]

I think keeping in spell pierce on the play is helpful to nab aether vial, although I board it out on the draw. basically you have a good shot of winning if they don't have vial, and won't win if they resolve and get it up to four most games. Having four ways to remove it once it hits play plus force of will I think is the way to beat goblins without jamming your sideboard with four moat or something. Pithing Needle, disenchant, And banishing stroke all work, and engineered explosives may but seems a little slow on the draw (haven't tested ee)

[Koby]

in all fairness Koby, what you're playing would be closer to UW/x blade than Miracle control.

Agreed. Spaeth's list is actually Blade Control with Terminus rather than the typical Miracle lists discussed in this thread.

Goblins have a lot of trouble fighting Blade Control.

In all fairness, Control decks with Miracles belong in this thread. :\
I think Spaeth's deck is just something between the two rather, and aims to play more control rather than aggro. I think the presence of Counterbalance + SDT in the 75 lean it closer to Miracle control rather than UW Blade based tempo.

That said,
Tribal is going to stress the limits of maindeck Counterbalance these days. I can't imagine why someone would pick up the traditional CB/top ala Reid Duke for a metagame that consists of Vials & Caverns. True, you have a good tool against Combo, but in the USA those matchups are few and far in between.

[Tammit67]

I have had problems with the mirror, any way to get above 50-50? It seems first turn top just wins it. Would you force of will that sucker?

The mirror comes down to Top, CB, and Jace. Focus countermagic into stopping your opponents and resolving yours.

Forcing so early is awkward since you are down a card. I'd usually not force top and save mine for setting up one of the other two.

EDIT: At Koby: I picked up this list since I have more experience with CB then I do SFM. Mirrors involving SFM I will straight lose due to inexperience. Tribal isn't that prevalent here just yet, while RUG and Stoneblade are. CB crushes those two.

I will absolutely consider the sfm list, although my initial testing after Hayne top 8'd the BoM with it (If I recall correctly), it was trying to jam too many things into one deck for it to be focused. Perhaps the Spaeth list manages it more to my liking

[menace13]

EDIT: At Koby: I picked up this list since I have more experience with CB then I do SFM. Mirrors involving SFM I will straight lose due to inexperience. Tribal isn't that prevalent here just yet, while RUG and Stoneblade are. CB crushes those two.

I will absolutely consider the sfm list, although my initial testing after Hayne top 8'd the BoM with it (If I recall correctly), it was trying to jam too many things into one deck for it to be focused. Perhaps the Spaeth list manages it more to my liking

The list from BOM had only Bstorm and StP as the only cards with the full 4 playsets. The rest of the list is 2's and 3's, Also it had a few singletons like, Crucible, Entreat, Clique. My instinct after so many games is that the deck should have as many 4 of's that it can play in order for it to be actively doing something consistently and early in every game.

Goblins and Merfolk become easier with SFM and in some match ups it keeps the opponents sideboard plans honest with their removal(even more so in mirrors).
I don't think Goblins can be beat w/o a early Moat or unmolested SFM for Jitte/Batter(Entreat for 5 tokens?).

Considered going up to 4 Entreat in current list without any SFM because it beats so many things even if only resolved for 2 tokens. An end of turn/instant Entreat is so over the top for a Cbalance deck to do something that powerful and tricky.

[Final Fortune]

In all fairness, Control decks with Miracles belong in this thread. :\
I think Spaeth's deck is just something between the two rather, and aims to play more control rather than aggro. I think the presence of Counterbalance + SDT in the 75 lean it closer to Miracle control rather than UW Blade based tempo.

That said,
Tribal is going to stress the limits of maindeck Counterbalance these days. I can't imagine why someone would pick up the traditional CB/top ala Reid Duke for a metagame that consists of Vials & Caverns. True, you have a good tool against Combo, but in the USA those matchups are few and far in between.

If you're moving away from Counterbalance and towards Stone Forge Mystic, is there any use in fishing Queit Speculation out of the folder and playing around with Lingering Souls and Deep Analysis?

[CorpT]

Quite serious. I'm playing Kobie Spaeth's list with SFM. Terminus to reset the board, SFM to get Batterskull. Win the game. I'm also playing 1 EE maindeck, 2 more SB, and 1 Pyroclasm to add more sweepers. I'm ALSO playing 3 SCM to rebuy StP. The deck essentially becomes all removal after sideboard. I can understand versions that are dicking around with Counterbalance maindeck will be having problems. That's to be expected since Cavern of Souls just takes a giant shit on your deck.

EDIT: and AEther Vial.

If you guys don't remember this time last summer when Batterskull was printed - every tribal deck just bricked. This isn't much different from that vein.

I don't think it's necessarily that good for the SFM/Terminus deck. That's what I was running at Legacy Champs and was run over by Goblins. In one game I could not find a Terminus. In the next game he had an answer for every Batterskull I played. They do have a lot: Stingscourger, Gempalm Incinerator, Tin-Street Hooligan plus plenty of ways to find them.

And I had almost as much removal as you (-1 EE).

[Anusien]

When you say trumps, do you mean engineered explosives or oblivion ring? What cards do you play that trump counterbalance?

If you think of the time when CB decks all ran Tarmogoyf, your trump card would be a card that beat Tarmogoyf and Counterbalance. Trumps were things like Elpseth, Knight-Errant, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Vedalken Shackles, Sower of Temptation.

Beating CB the card is easy (it was very easy to find trumps against Stoneforge Mystic). Now the question is what trumps are there that dodge CB and also beat Entreat? Your own Entreat is the easy one.

[Guy I Don't Know]

If you think of the time when CB decks all ran Tarmogoyf, your trump card would be a card that beat Tarmogoyf and Counterbalance. Trumps were things like Elpseth, Knight-Errant, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Vedalken Shackles, Sower of Temptation.

Beating CB the card is easy (it was very easy to find trumps against Stoneforge Mystic). Now the question is what trumps are there that dodge CB and also beat Entreat? Your own Entreat is the easy one.

Not countering top or counterbalance with force of will was very helpful advice, Thanks! I see saving FOW for Jace or Entreat helps out a lot. Would you like to tell me what cards you specifically play? If you want I can guess, Gather Specimes? Commandeer? Those seem very narrow. I am guessing you are talking about entreat, FOW, Jace, and Vendilion Clique. Vedalken Shackles Sort of helps but only can neutralize an entreat over a few turns.

[Anusien]

So far Clique seems to be the best answer to all the relevant things (Entreat, Jace) but it can eat it to CB.

[Koby]

So far Clique seems to be the best answer to all the relevant things (Entreat, Jace) but it can eat it to CB.

It can still be the best way to fight Clique too. Sorta like how Jace is the best anti-Jace.

[rxavage]

I run 2 V.Clique in the board and he Always impacts the game, she enables miracles and defends against them in the mirror. So far I've been running 2 EtA along with 3 SFM, batterskul, and Jitte. I don't want to cut the Angels completely because it seems to come through at those times when nothing else can win the game, I was thinking of switching one with Elspeth 1.0. I've also been trying to figure out if I should try and test Crucible of Worlds with Wastes, Factories, and adding a 4th terminus main. Or maybe I'm just messing the deck up.

[menace13]

I run 2 V.Clique in the board and he Always impacts the game, she enables miracles and defends against them in the mirror. So far I've been running 2 EtA along with 3 SFM, batterskul, and Jitte. I don't want to cut the Angels completely because it seems to come through at those times when nothing else can win the game, I was thinking of switching one with Elspeth 1.0. I've also been trying to figure out if I should try and test Crucible of Worlds with Wastes, Factories, and adding a 4th terminus main. Or maybe I'm just messing the deck up.

Crucible is amazing in any control match up. It is basically draw 1 land every turn if you have a fetch in the yard.

I wouldn't play Elspeth over the 2nd or 3rd Entreat. Entreat trumps Elspeth in a head to head(almost everything else too)