Is Vexing Susher viable as an SB option now that miracle CB controls are popping left and right?
I'd rather play more Sulfuric Vortex or CMC>2 Burn like Rift Bolt/Thunderous Wrath, because they support the game plan much better.Originally Posted by Abantau
I might try going for 16 creatures with 4 of each, somehow vexing gives some kind of first turn explosivness ive been lacking with only the guides.
Guess i'll do some more testing.
You think Vexing Devil is more explosive than guide? Vexing says 4 damage on him with the opponent not spending a card to deal. Guide says at least 2 damage (4+ most of the time) with your opponent having to spend a card to deal with him. I dont think its very close.
If that is your opinion, you do not understand how to play this deck at all. Snapcaster is actually one of the worst cards in the deck (every card is "good", obviously, otherwise we wouldn't be running them, but Snapcaster is closer to the 30th card than the 3rd card in the deck, so to speak). The best card in the deck is Goblin Guide, and the choice is not very close.
It is an interesting choice, having the option to push through counterbalance is good. Worth testing, just as long as double red won't be an issue.
With that said, I like this game plan better, having our spells uncounterable while still spending resources to do so via Shusher is good but a resolved Vortex is better IMO. It applies the pressure we need for only 3 mana.
To force or not to force? That is the question.
I'm only quoting some player here who has said that and he has a lot of top 8's to back it up. Also that's my opinion, knowing to play the deck and not knowing has no direct connection to it. I could very much remember the games where Goblin Guide has made me lost but none to Snapcaster.
And I can also remember the games where a hand flooded with Guides made me win and a hand flooded with Snapcasters made me lost.
Snapcaster is not good alone, Guide is. Snapcaster is 3 mana, Guide is 1. In my opinion, that says pretty much everything in a deck that is supposed to be aggressive with multiple one drops.
I do not see the reason to debate on whether Goblin Guide or Snapcaster is the better card in the deck. They both serve different purposes and deserve a spot in the maindeck.
Guide is good against control and combo where you need to apply pressure fast and be the aggressor in the match
Snapcaster is good against decks where you need to be the control deck. Plus IMO he is the best card in the mirror. Snapcaster to Brainstorm is one of the best plays you can do in the mirror to be ahead.
To force or not to force? That is the question.
I am playing 20 lands and Snapcaster is the best card in the deck. Versions with 18 should play something else.
I had plans to play all legacy tournaments at Gen con, new sleeves, new perfect fit..., "unfortunately" my team had to play top8 at World Magic Cup so i had to skip my chance to win Brainstorm painting(I was the worst player, team "manager"
).
I don't see why you would want to cut guides. Guide is the best turn 1 play almost every time. And like has been said, snapcaster and guide serve different roles. Snapcaster is great in this deck. Let's you do serious game ending damage with a single price to progress. Or he snaps a LB eot and then attacks for a 3 mana lava axe, or he gets to be a draw spell? I don't think I would go below 3 Snaps.
Took this to another Top8 finish at a local tournament (BCI Makati, Philippines) 80+ players
Maindeck:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Fire/Ice
2 Price of Progress
3 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
2 Daze
1 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Arid Mesa
2 Island
2 Mountain
Sideboard:
2 Submerge
4 Surgical Extraction
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Echoing Truth
1 Spell Pierce
1 Price of Progress
2 Smash to Smithereens
2 Sulfuric Vortex
I was expecting lots of UW miracles, hence the mainboard Vortex, as it turns out I dodged all of them today
Round 1 - Dredge
Game 1
He fails to find a discard outlet on his opening seven but kept anyway so he ended up having to go to the discard step to get things going. The pressure from 2 flipped delvers got there as he kept a really slow start.
Game 2
He kept a hand with darkblast as his only dredger, I hit it with Surgical extraction and then two guides make quick work of him as he never got another dredger.
1-0
Round 2 - Maverick
Game 1
Early turns are a bit hazy in my memory as I kept no notes but I remember I got him down to 6 life and then he stabilized with Maze of Ith on my lone delver, got killed by Knight of the Reliquary soon after that.
Game 2
He missed his land drops for turns 2 and 3, so I used surgical extraction on his Misty rainforest and it paid off, as he drew his 2nd land too late.
Game 3
This was almost like game 1, he stabilized at 6 life but I drew Chain Lightning to pair up with my Lightning Bolt to deal lethal.
2-0
Round 3 - Affinity
Game 1
Triple goblin guide, there was a point where he sacrificed 2 artifact lands and a signal pest to save his Arcbound ravager and it looked like it would foil my guides, but burn got him eventually.
Game 2
He resolves a Chalice of the Void for 1, luckily I am already holding Smash to Smithereens, applied pressure with delver and countered his two attempts on resolving Tezzerret, Agent of Bolas.
3-0
Round 4 - Junk
Game 1
Got hit with 2 thoughtseizes and hymn to tourach, but I still managed to stick a Delver and burned him eventually.
Game 2
He kept a slow hand with Bojuka bog as his first land drop, it came to a point where price of progress would be lethal, he was at 8 life and he was forced to use wasteland on his Bojuka Bog, I got another price of progress in hand but it got extirpated, luckily I was able to follow it up with grim lavamancer and lightning bolt!
4-0
Round 5 - Hive Mind
Game 1
Counter wars on a hardcasted hive mind, it resolves, he casts pact of the titan, I lose on my upkeep (was 1 mana away from paying it).
Game 2
Got him to 4 life with an active lavamancer in play. Hive mind resolves and I got a lose the game trigger on my upkeep to pay, but he notices that I can shoot him down to 2 at the end step and kill him on the upkeep before the pact trigger resolves and we were on to game 3
Game 3
Early pressure from two goblin guides made him go for it early, fortunately I countered it and got lethal damage before any pact triggers goes on my stack
5-0
Round 6 - BW Stoneblade
Game 1
Early flipped delver and got burn for his guys.
Game 2
Kept a one land hand (Volcanic Island) proved to be very, very wrong to do, as wasteland made quick work of me and I drew blank for 4 turns, by the time I drew another land 4 spirit tokens were chipping my life away.
Game 3
Kept a one lander again this time it consisted of (Arid Mesa, Goblin Guide 2x, Lightning BOlt, Chain Lightning, Brainstorm, Delver of Secrets) it turned out alright as I got the burn for his Vampire Nighthawks and the 2nd land came just in time (turn 4 draw).
6-0
Round 7 - ID
6-0-1
Finished 1st after the swiss! The top8 opted to skip the playoffs as it was getting late. Got an underground sea for my efforts.
Thoughts on the deck:
I might up my submerge count to 3 again as the Maverick match was really close, the maindeck is very solid with only 2 flex spots (fire/ice and sulfuric vortex), depending on what meta you are expecting this should be adjusted accordingly other than that I wouldn't change a thing.
Thanks for reading!
Last edited by karaxu; 08-29-2012 at 01:52 AM.
To force or not to force? That is the question.
@karaxu
Hey dude congrats on the top 8. I'm the 6th seed on the top 8 of that same tournament, awesome finish and cheers to us. I was also lucky to dodge Counter-top Miracles on all 6 Rounds lol
Might as well make a tournament report:
Maindeck: 60
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Price of Progress
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce
1 Daze
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Mountain
2 Island
4 Arid Mesa
3 Misty Rainforest
Sideboard: 15
3 Red Elemental Blase
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Force of Will
2 Thunderous Wrath
1 Fireblast
Can't remember exact details so I'll just summarize what I remember
Round 1 - UR Delver
Game 1
Don't remember much but he ran out of burn for my creatures and I have burn for his. This is usually a game of creature control to avoid damage and I guess I just drew more stuff than lands this game.
Game 2 (In 2 REB, 2 Thunderous, 1 Fireblast Out 3 Force of Will, 1 Price of Progress, 1 Spell Pierce)
He mana flooded again. Game was decided at one turn when he casted Snapcaster Mage and I had the REB for it. He spell pierced a brainstorm earlier so he had no protection for Tiago.
Round 2: Affinity (Thopter Foundry Main Deck and 1 Sword of the Meek)
Game 1
He locks me out with Thopter Foundry and Sword of the Meek combo. I scoop when he starts gaining 4 Life and 4 Tokens per turn.
Game 2 (In 2 Smash, 2 Wrath, 1 Fireblast, 2 Vortex Out 3 Force, 4 Spell Pierce)
I was able to draw Smash to Smithereens and Grim Lavamancer on my opening hand. Smash for his Chalice and Grim for his creatures. I drew my Sulfuric Vortex before he lays down his Thopter Foundry.
Game 3
He mulled to 5 and was able to laydown the Thopter Foundry. When he was down to 10 I casted Price of Progress with him having a lot of non-basics. He sacrifices the lands to Thopter Foundry but 2 Flipped Delvers and 1 Grim Lavamancer was too much.
Round 3 Enchantress
Game 1
I brainstorm thrice with fetches and never see a counter for his Solitary Confinement. he eventually Solitaires me out.
Game 2 (In Force of Will, 2 Vortex, 1 Fireblast Out 1 Price, 3 Chain Lightning)
I start with a Delver and a turn 2 Brainstorm into Goblin Guide. I lay down a Lavamancer at some point. On his 4th turn I Spell Pierce his liquify on my flipped Delver and he pays 2. Then he plays an Elephant Grass and I Force of Will it to swing for Lethal. He fails to draw some Enchantresses this game
Game 3
My opening hand was crazy good, Spell Pierce, Force of Will, Delver, Lands and Cantrips. My Delver blind flips into another Spell Pierce and I top deck another Force of Will. I countered his searched Enchantress' Pressence and have answers to his defences.
Round 4 - UW Delver
Game 1
We both run out of gas but I win the top deck war with Goblin Guide, Snapcaster and Grim Lavamancer
Game 2 (In 2 Wrath, 2 Vortex, 2 REB, 2 Smash Out 3 Force, 4 Spell Pierce, 1 Price of Progress)
I keep a hand with only 1 fetchland and 1 brainstorm but 1 Delver, 1 Guide and 2 Chains and 1 Lightning Bolt. I figured I can atleast burn out his threats if things go sideways. He proceeds to Daze my 1st Guide and Wastelands my Volcanic Island. I draw into an Island but no red mana to cast my red spells. I lose. He also dropped a Jotun Grunt which I can't really answer and the turn before I scooped he casted a Geist of Saint Traft.
Game 3
He had the better draws and my early threats got removed. He lays down an early Geist of the Saint Traft and I race with my Goblin Guide. He then lays a Jotun Grunt but eventually he forgets to pay his Jotun Grunt upkeep cost and we call a judge to decide. His Jotun Grunt dies but he still has his Geist. I price him for 6 to keep up with the race because his Geist has already hit me twice. I misplay by not blocking the Geist when he laid down Jitte and equipped it this was after the Judge call and I just totally lost focus, I purposely didn't attack my Guide but there didn't block! That cost me the match :(
Round 5 Aggro Bant
Game 1
He armadillo cloaks a Birds of Paradise with Unstable Mutation then Spectral Flights it later on. OUCH!
Game 2 (In 2 Wrath, 1 Fireblast, 2 Vortex Out 3 Force of Will 2 Spell Pierce)
I keep a 1 lander with 2 Guides, 3 Bolts. I Miracle a Thunderous Wrath and then burn his face. My second land came the turn I burn him out. He kept a hand with no acceleration and his 3rd turn Geist of Saint Traft had to block one of the Guides.
Game 3
I burn his mana dorks and land a Grim Lavamancer. His Troll Ascetic comes in too late to my 1 Grim Lavamancer, 1 Flipped Delver and 1 Goblin Guide.
Round 6 Affinity (Tezzeret)
Game 1 (Same as round 2 but no Vortex, I keep a Force in and another card)
I turn 1 Delver flip into some removal for his Vault Skirge. Price of Progress and Burn get me the win.
Game 2
I get smashed when he lands an early Etched Champion with a Cranial Plating and a Ravager. I turn 1 Goblin Guide and turn 2 Goblin Guide and burn his creature. I should have played my Lavamancer earlier.
Game 3
This went to time but I was able to Smash his Cranial Plating but he makes a great tech play by hitting his own Cranial with Nature's Claim gaining him 4 life and fizzles my Smash. I have 2 Lavamancers in play to control the board and we reach the last 5 turns. He casts a Ravager and an Etched Champion, he has 4 Lands in play and proceeds to cast Tezzeret. He can't attack because he is low on life and I price of progress him but he sacs 3 of his lands to Ravager to avoid Bolt Range. I double Grim his Tezzeret and he runs out of artifacts and I block his 7/7 Etched Champion. I top deck a Chain Lightning.
Round 7 Hive Mind (ID into top 8)
Last edited by blindspotxxx; 08-26-2012 at 08:32 PM.
@blindspotxx, good job sir! congratulations to us!
How are you liking the thunderous wraths? I'm guessing thats for the UW miracle matchup, and I noticed no submerges in the sideboard, granted maverick is not that rampant in our metagame but we never know, my maverick matchup was close.
To force or not to force? That is the question.
It seems someone finally managed to T8 an SCG event with this deck again. Here's the list, for those not in the know:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=48926
It seems he's playing a much slower list than we've been discussing here. He's playing the same number of lands as most of the decks here, but he's definitiely playing for a longer game; he's cut all 4 Goblin Guides (and not playing Vexing Devil either), he's playing Clique and Jace in the maindeck, and he's playing less soft countermagic (Spell Pierce, Daze) and more hard countermagic (Spell Snare, Force).
Personally, I'm not sure I like this approach; I feel as though these changes slow down the deck by at least 1 turn, and I feel as though I'm already at least 1-2 turns too slow against most decks in the format. That said, he T8'd an SCG event and I haven't, so I guess I'm probably wrong.
The one thing I don't understand about his list is the Smash to Smithereens. Does that card actually still do anything anymore? I'm thinking of cutting them from my deck completely. I suppose in a slower build you need it for the long game against Stoneblade...
Chalice on one is a problem, and 3 dmg is nice. Smash to Smithereens will be staying in my sideboard.
Did you see this gem: http://media.wizards.com/images/magi...sxiwmed_en.jpg
I think that it has too much potential to not get played in this deck (Fire/Ice, Forked Bolt, Spell Pierce slots)
With 4 Brainstorm and 2-4 Ponder, I'd rather play the right answer than this overcosted Shock/Pierce/Looting/Study. Fire and forked bolt can 2-1, this can't. Pierce counters for U, this can't (we are not playing counterspell after all..)
I am liking them very much but I was only able to use them once lol Yep well I treat the Maverick Matchup now like burn. Just prevent life gain and burn to the face. Submerge has won me games against Maverick but well I guess extra 5 damage to the face would also result the same.
@Anen
I agree with your comment here :)
@Ertai87
I don't like his list to be honest but you're right it's something to think about. I guess he wants to play more grindy matchups? Smash to Smithereens is still boss I'd never cut that down, but yeah sideboard is for meta and as you can see I fought like 2 Affinity decks and it shined well.
@Fanattic: Anen is right: I'd rather just figure out which of those effects I want and play those rather than pay more mana to have the versatility. In a deck that only plays 8 actual mana sources, 2 mana is a lot.
Chalice is a big deal, you're right, but how many Chalices are seeing play right now? There is almost no MUD around these days and Merfolk doesn't play it anymore. Is it worth playing 2 cards for matchups that we can't win without them, but that we'll likely never play anyway?
I love the look of that SCG deck. Clique seems pretty good right now. Look at the top 16 for the event:
Storm
Belcher x2
Reanimator
Omni-Tell
Painted Stone
Against which of those is Guide better than Clique? Maybe reanimator since getting their life total low enough to shut of Reanimate and Grisselbrand activations is key, but that's about it.
And flying w/ 3 power is pretty good. If you can survive the short game (and w/ as much burn and counter magic as he had you should be able to) then you're in good shape.
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