[Deck] Dredge

[Final Fortune]

How is Sun Titan ever better than Griselbrand?

[Michael Keller]

How is Sun Titan ever better than Griselbrand?

Sun Titan doesn't necessitate having to pay seven life for its triggered ability, and for all intents and purposes (virtually) wins you the game on the spot - much like Griselbrand would.

However, Griselbrand buries Sun Titan as far as utility in Dredge goes. Drawing cards or flipping your deck at the cost of seven life is ludicrously good.

[Vandalize]

Sun Titan can bring back Bloodghasts by putting a land into play. And as they win the game the same, Sun Titan is strictly better than Griselbrand in Bloodghasts lists.

Still, with Ichorids I'd definetely go for Griselbrand, if I was running Dread Return at all.

[Fizzeler]

A dredge deck did top 16 the recent Open
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=48942
I am curious on why he chose to play Sphinx Of Lost Truths, while it is good I think the slot could have been another Careful Study or Griselbrand

As for Bloodghasts Vs Ichorid, I personally prefer Ichorid as it sacs itself (then again I play a very close to Quadlazer list) and beats a bit harder. The advantage to Bloodghast being easier to recur than Ichorid as you don't have to feed 4 of them just one, but they don't remove themselves for Bridges so you have to get a Sac outlet to remove them

EDIT: Izzet Charm, this card does 3 things at instant speed one of which loots, it may be UR to cast, but I think it warrants some testing, the instant Loot ability + Countermagic on a card seems insane as this will give the deck more resiliency to Graveyard Hate

[Ghiwo]

Hi, I'm new here, and also new playing Dredge; I'm still learning how to play the deck, but I read all the Thread and found it really useful.

I started playing Dredge about 3 months ago, during that time I converted to Anusien's simil-quadlaser LEDless list.

What I would like to ask is mainly about sideboarding. I really liked the idea of Griselbrand in the board, and understood its use reading at page 65, but I can't imagine what are its match-ups. When do you usually board it? Against what?

Another question: one of the first things I learned, reading here, is that we usually have to board out breakthrough G2. Is replacing it every time with 4 Nature's Claim a good choice? Or are there better choices?

Talking about MD, do you think that 16 lands in a LEDless list could be fine? Or should I go down to 14?

Thanks a lot!

P.S. I'm Italian, so sorry for my English!

[TerribleTim68]

...P.S. I'm Italian, so sorry for my English!

Oddly, your english seems better than a lot of Americans.

[Final Fortune]

Hi, I'm new here, and also new playing Dredge; I'm still learning how to play the deck, but I read all the Thread and found it really useful.

I started playing Dredge about 3 months ago, during that time I converted to Anusien's simil-quadlaser LEDless list.

What I would like to ask is mainly about sideboarding. I really liked the idea of Griselbrand in the board, and understood its use reading at page 65, but I can't imagine what are its match-ups. When do you usually board it? Against what?

Another question: one of the first things I learned, reading here, is that we usually have to board out breakthrough G2. Is replacing it every time with 4 Nature's Claim a good choice? Or are there better choices?

Talking about MD, do you think that 16 lands in a LEDless list could be fine? Or should I go down to 14?

Thanks a lot!

P.S. I'm Italian, so sorry for my English!

SBing in 2xDread Return and 1xGriselbrand is for the Surgical Extraction/Snapcaster decks, where you're diversifying your kill conditions to prevent a double Surgical Extraction from completely blowing you out of the game.

You do not have to board out Breakthrough game 2, and in fact I believe boarding out Breakthrough game 2 is an obvious mistake unless you can put your opponent on Tormod's Crypt post-board, i.e. Affinity, Trinket Mage.dec etc. and even then you want to SB out Lion's Eye Diamond before you SB out Breakthrough.

As far as LEDless Dredge is concerned, I use Anusien's list -1 Tarnished Citadel, -1 Golgari Thug and -1 Ichorid for +3 Tireless Tribe, and I think 11 Golden Lands, 11 Dredgers and 7 discard creatures is where the deck wants to be.

[Fizzeler]

So I have been tinkering with Izzet Charm a bit and came to this list:

4 Lotus Petal
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Breakthrough
3 Izzet Charm
4 Careful Study
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

You lose LED for Lotus Petal to more consistently get UR and drop Faithless Looting for Izzet Charm, warrants testing still I have just been solitairing with it.

Another advantage is the ability to run Ground Seal post board (siding out DR and Zealot for 3 Ground Seal) in addition to having Counterspells for their GY hate

[NecroYawgmoth]

Why Play Izzet Charm over... lets say Zombie Infestation, Ideas Unbound or Wild Guess?

[Fizzeler]

Why Play Izzet Charm over... lets say Zombie Infestation, Ideas Unbound or Wild Guess?

I see your point

I think the utility of a Spell Pierce post-board though seems good as it can also remove Scavenging Ooze and counter Surgical Extraction

[TerribleTim68]

...I think the utility of a Spell Pierce post-board though seems good as it can also remove Scavenging Ooze and counter Surgical Extraction

I'd rather SB Firestorm to deal with Scavenging Ooze. Not to mention that, to me, dropping Faithless Looting seems insane since I tend to cast it from the yard more often than from the hand. Izzet Charm doesn't have that option.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Please stop posting about Izzet Charm. It is not good enough. I don't have to test it to tell you that. Dredge will never play a spell that can't be cast from hand for one. Never. Otherwise, we'd all be using 4 Tolarian Winds. Sure, you may cast Breakthrough for x=1 once in a while, but that's the exception, not the rule.

And seriously, look at the cards you cut: Lion's Eye Diamond and Faithless Looting. Instead, you get Lotus Petal and Izzet Charm? Um....

[Fizzeler]

I'd rather SB Firestorm to deal with Scavenging Ooze. Not to mention that, to me, dropping Faithless Looting seems insane since I tend to cast it from the yard more often than from the hand. Izzet Charm doesn't have that option.

Point taken

Please stop posting about Izzet Charm. It is not good enough. I don't have to test it to tell you that. Dredge will never play a spell that can't be cast from hand for one. Never. Otherwise, we'd all be using 4 Tolarian Winds. Sure, you may cast Breakthrough for x=1 once in a while, but that's the exception, not the rule.

And seriously, look at the cards you cut: Lion's Eye Diamond and Faithless Looting. Instead, you get Lotus Petal and Izzet Charm? Um....

Okay

On another note has anyone had positive results using Gravecrawler after board or is Nether Shadow just strictly better?

[TerribleTim68]

...On another note has anyone had positive results using Gravecrawler after board or is Nether Shadow just strictly better?

Gravecrawler - Costs 1 mana, no haste, 2/1.
Nether Shadow - No mana, haste, 1/1.

Personally I don't like either of them. I could see where Gravecrawler could be an issue on those times where you don't have a land because your Gemstone Mine ran out of counters or something. I don't like the small body of Nether Shadow either. But that's just me.

I'm still looking for more feedback on that "Ghoultree out of the board" situation myself.

[Fizzeler]

Gravecrawler - Costs 1 mana, no haste, 2/1.
Nether Shadow - No mana, haste, 1/1.

Personally I don't like either of them. I could see where Gravecrawler could be an issue on those times where you don't have a land because your Gemstone Mine ran out of counters or something. I don't like the small body of Nether Shadow either. But that's just me.

I'm still looking for more feedback on that "Ghoultree out of the board" situation myself.

I think the Ghoultree option is cute, but not that good, all things considered

I was thinking of Crawler because Nether Shadow is to small and Ashen Ghoul (While good) needs you to have B at your upkeep for recursion, Crawler could help you beat, but you do need a Zombie for it to be useful

Mainly I am hitting Propaganda all to often and trying to find ways to combat it, as the player will drop it and then force your ways of removing it so I need a second recurable dude that can beat as Nether Shadow is to slow and Ichorid can only com back for so long, I can see Ghoultree shining under Propaganda though

[Vandalize]

I think the Ghoultree option is cute, but not that good, all things considered

I was thinking of Crawler because Nether Shadow is to small and Ashen Ghoul (While good) needs you to have B at your upkeep for recursion, Crawler could help you beat, but you do need a Zombie for it to be useful

Mainly I am hitting Propaganda all to often and trying to find ways to combat it, as the player will drop it and then force your ways of removing it so I need a second recurable dude that can beat as Nether Shadow is to slow and Ichorid can only com back for so long, I can see Ghoultree shining under Propaganda though

Ashen Ghoul: Requires B, and needs 3 creatures above him. 3/1 haste.

Gravecrawler: Requires B, a Zombie. 2/1 no haste, can't block.

Hmm, Ashen Ghoul is strictly better than Gravecrawler.

[Fizzeler]

Ashen Ghoul: Requires B, and needs 3 creatures above him. 3/1 haste.

Gravecrawler: Requires B, a Zombie. 2/1 no haste, can't block.

Hmm, Ashen Ghoul is strictly better than Gravecrawler.

Is Ghoul better than Nether Shadow if I only run 13 lands? (seeing as Shadow requires no mana to recur, but is very small, while Ghoul requires B, but has 3 times the power)

[igri_is_a_bk]

No, if you depend on Dread Return, then Nether Shadow is the best creature to fuel that. It all depends on your build. Ghoul and Ichorid make for grinding, aggro games. Shadow leans towards a combo build with a DR finish.

[Anusien]

If Surgical Extraction is that big of a problem, what about running your own Surgical Extraction?

*) Counters their copy by taking the card they targeted and leaving your deck intact.
*) Stops them from Snapcaster Mage
*) No mana and instant speed
*) Synergizes with Cabal Therapy
*) Value in the mirror

[Final Fortune]

Ashen Ghoul: Requires B, and needs 3 creatures above him. 3/1 haste.

Gravecrawler: Requires B, a Zombie. 2/1 no haste, can't block.

Hmm, Ashen Ghoul is strictly better than Gravecrawler.

Disagree, the difference between Gravecrawler and Ashen Ghoul is that even tho' Gravecrawler is worse from your graveyard he's better from your hand, where you can play him directly and apply pressure thru' Gravecrawler and Putrid Imp beats.

I'm not saying I'd play Gravecrawler or Ashen Ghoul right, because frankly I don't care about Tormod's Crypt anymore in a world of Surgical Extractions, but Gravecrawler isn't strictly worse than Ashen Ghoul. When I did play Gravecrawler, the most annoying aspect of the card was having to play 4 Gravecrawlers and 4 Putrid Imps where Ashen Ghoul was less demanding at ~2 Ashen Ghouls and ~3 Putrid Imps.

@Anusien

I think all of the Surgical Extraction, Faerie Macabre and Coffin Purge effects are just completely unreliable, about the only way this has ever been an effective strategy (SBing directly against Surgical Extraction) is to use Street Wraith to instant speed draw your dredgers vs the 1st Surgical Extraction