Can you provide the top 8 decklists? Thanks!Originally Posted by blindspotxxx
So, vs RUG, really the best plan is DDD from the get go and then go from there? What do you do game two, same plan? This has to be the worst matchup for me of them all. Is DDD the solid answer then? My fear is, game two, I DDD and he Cabal Therapys that dredger. Then do you just DDD next turn again and pray he doesn't have another Therapy?
My problem is, I really do like the feel of this deck so I really want to stick with it.
My one issue with Manaless Dredge is that you are totally cold to Grafdigger's Cage, which is becoming increasingly common. Scavenging Ooze is also no picnic to play against. What is your current list for it, Hollywood?
As far as surgical extraction goes, I see 3 possible answers
1) Memory's Journey to respond to Surgical. This card doesn't need to be in your hand to be effective, which is a huge plus. It can also mitigate Crypt, rescue Bridges from exile triggers, recycle Narcomoebas, and mess with opposing graveyard decks. The downside is that it costs mana.
2) Additional GY threats. Adding in a couple Ashen Ghoul/Bloodghast/Nether Shadow can keep Surgical from being a problem. It can also speed your clock. The main problem is that every creature besides Narcomoeba and Ichorid has somewhat onerous requirements for recursion, which can be difficult to acheieve in postboard grinds. It's also not as flexible.
3) Just play around it. You can beat 1 or even 2 Surgicals postboard if you play smart, depending on what you have left to play with. This plan doesn't always work, and it can slow you down enough for the opponent to come back.
I decided to go with the Journey plan, and I was super satisfied.
The answer to Maverick's Scavening Oozes and Knights of the Reliquary is the Force Spike Chancellor, it guarantees they can't accelerate their board position with Exalted Hierarch and Green Sun's Zenith T1 and it gives you the time you need to kickstart your Dredging.
Any of the old Manaless Dredge lists we posted with an updated Griselbrand/Flayer of the Hatebound win condition is probably fine, the only cards that were ever in contention were the 12 cards that accelerate your deck or decelerate your opponent, for instance the Lion's Eye Diamond, Cephalid Coliseum, Deep Analysis package vs the Street Wraith, Gitaxian Probe, Force Spike Chancellor package or the Baubles etc. and I think you could honestly SB between the two if you wanted to.
My only problem with Manaless, besides Leyline of the Void and Grafdigger's Cage, is that it's completely cold to Storm/Reanimator without being able to play on the play, open with Lion's Eye Diamond aggressively without Spell Pierce and Daze being online or Duress makes it more or less a metagame deck compared to LED Dredge or LEDless Dredge where you're relying on control to keep combo in check and don't have any pseudo aggro-combo decks like Affinity or Elves to contend with (in addition to having to dodge either the above hate cards or just a lot of SB hate cards in the form of Surgical Extractions and Tormod's Crypts)
@TerribleTime
Don't misinterpret this, but it sounds like you're completely misplaying the aggro-control match up by walking your Putrid Imp into Daze and your mana source into Wasteland, you're not suppose to play Putrid Imp (or Tireless Tribe) before you DDD, people figured this out in the Misstep era out of necessity but it's completely relevent today as well.
For instance if you open,
Cephalid Coliseum
Careful Study
Careful Study
Golgari Thug
X
X
X
Y (Draw)
The correct play is to discard the Golgari Thug, draw a card on your draw step and then play Cephalid Coliseum and cast Careful Study, not play Cephalid Coliseum, cast Careful Study into Daze and then get Wastelanded on your opponent's turn and be shit out of luck for ~3 turns until you can top deck a mana source or DDD.
Putrid Imp is a card you cast aggressively on the play vs. an unknown opponent, not a card you cast reactively on the draw vs an Island.
It's one of the reasons Putrid Imps place in the MD/SB is debatable, you only lead with Putrid Imp in 50% of your G1s and ideally never in your G2s which makes it a G3 card. I only board in the full set of Putrid Imps for G2 because they're a soft answer to Tormod's Crypt, not because they're necessary to start dredging.
Ofcourse, that all depends on whether or not you're able to keep your opening 7, Putrid Imp is actually for your mulligans more than anything.
Maybe we should set aside some space in the primer for actual play situations with opening hands? I think we've discussed card choices to death, and it's clear the skill cap for the deck isn't in card choices but in understanding the mechanics and proper SBing (IMO)
Edit: Also, it sounds like you're misplaying Griselbrand as well, if you don't have enough cards in your deck left to dredge your entire deck without killing yourself then you draw 7 cards and now you have a board position, graveyard position and hand with absolutely no way for your opponent to be able to deal with all 3.
Stop teasing us and post your list allreadyIt's what I'm playing right now, FWIW. While I've been doing really well with it, I am still uncertain if it's the "best" Dredge deck right now in the format..
Our music means nothing, except for what it means to
you.
Seriously! Think of all the additional testing you miss out on!Stop teasing us and post your list allready
This man is a truthspeaker! You deserve a beer - if you see me in Ghent, you may present yourself to me as The Speaker of Truths and I will buy you a beer of choice
Stop teasing us and post your list allready+1
Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells
:16:- (See, now Erratic Explosion's a deck)
Legendary Creature - Horror
Haste, Hexproof, Double Strike, Trample
Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells is indestructible.
Permanents you control can't be sacrificed or copied.
Whenever Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells attacks, defending player gets liver cancer (This effect doesn't end at end of turn.)
13/13
Hi, heres is the list of my top 2 ( ID in the finals ) and all the lists of the rest of Top 8. http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...4&iddeck=65479
My matches were those ones:
Deadgy Ale: 2-0
Delver tempo blade: 2-1
Dredge: 0-2
Maverick: 1-1
UW miracles: 2-0
Delver tempo blade: 2-1
Quarter finals:
MUD: 2-0
Semi finals:
Dredge (the same of swiss): 2-1
Finals:
Soldiers: ID. Think I could win this matchup very easy, but my headacke stops me :(.
Yes, I can post software simulation results for this exact change, from a Thug to a Breakthrough. Drop me the list you want analysed, and I'll get you the chance to hit a godly hand with both.
While it may vary from list to list, my previous analysis all shown that Thug increases the chance by more than BT does.
I will probably drop the Java code too, if someone out there wants to take a look...
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
Awesome, thank you for the post. That helps a ton. Your opening hand run-down actually showed everything I'm doing wrong. I never thought to approach it like that. I have been playing the first couple turns like a "normal deck" where you put lands out and cast spells. It didn't dawn on me to just DDD even when I had spells to play that put stuff in the yard. This deck is so radically different that it's hard to see the little things like that. When you've done the whole "draw a card, play a land, cast a spell" type thing since the beginning of time, that other method isn't so clear or intuitive. So knowing when to do that isn't so simple. Next time I'll be looking to just DDD the dredger and then save the draw spells to dredge with him even more than I am probably doing now.
So to expand on that a bit. Say I have the same hand as above. I DDD the Golgari Thug and pass. Next turn I dredge with him for my draw step. If I hit another dredger I can then play a land and cast the Careful Study, correct? Or do you wait until you can play it around Daze and hope you don't get Wastelanded before that? What do you do if you don't hit another dredger? Do you just discard him again and pass? Do you silently weep inside? Do you curse your deck for hating you?
You're totaly right that I am also missplaying pImp. It didn't dawn on me to view him that way. I had only viewed him as a "get him out there so you have a discard outlet" situation. So with that in mind, is pImp a card you SB out for game 2 then? And then you mention bringing him back game 3 when on the play. I know that would help me find cards to SB out for that game 2.
As for Griselbrand, yea when there isn't enough cards left in the deck I have just drawn 7 and filled my hand back up. But even then I have been less than impressed since you stand a good possibility of having a Moeba or a Bridge in your hand after that or some other configuration of useless cards (by useless I mean "I really wish these weren't in my hand"). Maybe it would help post board to get to your anti-hate hate cards, I don't know. I just haven't fallen in love with the big scary demon in this deck yet, while at the same time I really love the blazing set of plate mail that is Flame-Kin Zealot.
Again, thanks for your post. I think it has helped me more than any other so far. It just never dawned on me to think in a method other than the typical linier approach. Much appreciated.
This should really be in the Manaless forum, but here it is anyhow:Stop teasing us and post your list allready
//Main
[4x] Golgari Grave-Troll
[4x] Stinkweed Imp
[4x] Golgari Thug
[4x] Shambling Shell
[4x] Ichorid
[4x] Nether Shadow
[4x] Street Wraith
[4x] Gitaxian Probe
[4x] Cabal Therapy
[4x] Phantasmagorian
[4x] Narcomoeba
[4x] Bridge from Below
[4x] Dread Return
[2x] Griselbrand
[1x] Sphinx of Lost Truth
[1x] Flayer of the Hatebound
[4x] Dryad Arbor
//Sideboard
[4x] Nature's Claim
[4x] Reverent Silence
[4x] Contagion
[2x] Verdant Catacombs
[1x] Forest
Obviously my meta hasn't been flooded with Reanimator or Dredge, hence the absence of Faerie Macabre. That is subject to change at any time, though.
Last edited by Michael Keller; 08-31-2012 at 03:09 PM.
You saved my Sunday
This man is a truthspeaker! You deserve a beer - if you see me in Ghent, you may present yourself to me as The Speaker of Truths and I will buy you a beer of choice
I like it a lot.
I mean, I am not going to advocate using a 'pseudo' Manaless build over the traditional LED variants that people have been more geared towards recently, as Manaless has kind of dropped off the map a bit. However. a version like that certainly has its merits and operates on a completely different functional level than that of its counterpart, so you have to understand that in a meta where Manaless can thrive it is actually really hard to stop.
Also, I just wanted to try something different.
I don't understand the Phantasmagorian. What is that card doing in your mana-less build? And by that I mean, how do you use it, what is it's purpose? Not "WTF are you doing with that card in your deck!?!?!?"
It is because of Phantasmagorian's second ability. You get it in the yard somehow and use the discard ttee: return Phantasmagorian ability to fill your graveyard with Dredgers,stack creatures for Shadow, sandbagging Bridges etc, the possibilities are quasi endless.
This man is a truthspeaker! You deserve a beer - if you see me in Ghent, you may present yourself to me as The Speaker of Truths and I will buy you a beer of choice
Oohhhhhhhhhhhh.Got it, thanks.
Man, I suck at this Dredge stuff.
Hollywood- nice deck. I might give it a try sometime.
Phantasmorigan can be the best card at times in this deck, but one thing I am questioning, why the sphinx and not Griselbrand?
The Sphinx is for a bit of diversity. There might be times where you won't have the life to activate it, in addition to being legendary. While these are certainly not big reasons for concern, two Griselbrand seems perfectly fine next to another choice which does something without having to pay for its ability.
That is a very interesting Manaless, build
I am curious on the option to exclude Gigapede? or is it to slow for manaless?
Currently Playing:
Dredge, The Rock, Lands, Spiral Tide, Affinity
Putrid Imp a card I don't have to play with G1, always play with G2 and may play with G3, because in G2 I'll SB out Lion's Eye Diamond and SB in Putrid Imps since Lion's Eye Diamond are the worst cards vs Tormod's Crypt, Putrid Imp is a soft counter to Tormod's Crypt and I don't know what hate my opponent is or is not playing. G3 I'll make a decision to keep in or to SB out Putrid Imp based on whether or not I saw Tormod's Crypt and likewise I'll SB Lion's Eye Diamond back in because I'm on the play and not on the draw and can go off vs. Tormod's Crypt before they can play.Awesome, thank you for the post. That helps a ton. Your opening hand run-down actually showed everything I'm doing wrong. I never thought to approach it like that. I have been playing the first couple turns like a "normal deck" where you put lands out and cast spells. It didn't dawn on me to just DDD even when I had spells to play that put stuff in the yard. This deck is so radically different that it's hard to see the little things like that. When you've done the whole "draw a card, play a land, cast a spell" type thing since the beginning of time, that other method isn't so clear or intuitive. So knowing when to do that isn't so simple. Next time I'll be looking to just DDD the dredger and then save the draw spells to dredge with him even more than I am probably doing now.
So to expand on that a bit. Say I have the same hand as above. I DDD the Golgari Thug and pass. Next turn I dredge with him for my draw step. If I hit another dredger I can then play a land and cast the Careful Study, correct? Or do you wait until you can play it around Daze and hope you don't get Wastelanded before that? What do you do if you don't hit another dredger? Do you just discard him again and pass? Do you silently weep inside? Do you curse your deck for hating you?
You're totaly right that I am also missplaying pImp. It didn't dawn on me to view him that way. I had only viewed him as a "get him out there so you have a discard outlet" situation. So with that in mind, is pImp a card you SB out for game 2 then? And then you mention bringing him back game 3 when on the play. I know that would help me find cards to SB out for that game 2.
As for Griselbrand, yea when there isn't enough cards left in the deck I have just drawn 7 and filled my hand back up. But even then I have been less than impressed since you stand a good possibility of having a Moeba or a Bridge in your hand after that or some other configuration of useless cards (by useless I mean "I really wish these weren't in my hand"). Maybe it would help post board to get to your anti-hate hate cards, I don't know. I just haven't fallen in love with the big scary demon in this deck yet, while at the same time I really love the blazing set of plate mail that is Flame-Kin Zealot.
Again, thanks for your post. I think it has helped me more than any other so far. It just never dawned on me to think in a method other than the typical linier approach. Much appreciated.
I'll post 3 configurations of the same deck thru' 3 games,
G1
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Tarnished Citadel
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Breakthrough
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
1 Griselbrand
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
2 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
SB
2 Tarnished Citadels
1 Ichorid
4 Putrid Imp
4 Naturalize
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ingot Chewer
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Wispmare
And now for G2, out 1 Dread Return, 1 Griselbrand, 1 Flayer of the Hatebound, 4 Lion's Eye Diamond and in 1 Ichorid, 2 Tarnished Citadels and 4 Putrid Imp
And now for G3 on the play, if you saw Tormod's Crypt instead of Surgical Extraction, out 2 Tarnished Citadels and 2 Dread Returns and in 4 Lion's Eye Diamonds.
As far as your correct play question, once you draw for your turn and you discard Golgari Thug for your end step, DO NOT replace your draw with a dredge activation on the following turn and hope to hit another dredger. Draw for your draw step and then try to resolve Careful Study, if the opponent counters Careful Study then you pass and draw for your next draw step and try to resolve your second Careful Study. If both Careful Studies were countered and the 2 cards you drew didn't offer you anything, now you Dredge your Golgari Thug and hope the missing land drop from Daze and the card disadvantage from from Force of Will have slowed him down enough for you to get back into the game by dredging manually.
Edit: The deck may be better with -1 Dread Return, -1 Flayer of the Hatebound for +1 Ichorid +1 Flame Kin Zealot since I always SB out the 3rd Dread Return and SB in the 3rd Ichorid and you open a SB space for Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite. My logic was the 3rd Dread Return and Flayer of the Hatebound let me save games vs Propaganda etc, but I think you can just DR Griselbrand, draw 7 cards and win thru' anything but Ensnaring Bridge.
@Gui
Ok, it'd be interesting to take a look at a deck, for example.
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Tarnished Citadel
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Brakethrough
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe
4 Narcomobea
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
Hold the number of Putrid Imp and Tireless Tribe constant and find whether or not the value of the 11th Tarnished Citadel or the 12th Breakthrough is less than the 12th Golgari Thug for opening hands and mulligans. Edit: I know Putrid Imp and Tireless Tribe are the least useful for openings hands and mulligans, but I don't think data can show the importance of being able to discard your entire hand, immunity to Spell Pierce, resiliency to Tormod's Crypt, being able to immediately discard a dredger and disrupt your opponent with Cabal Therapy or the extra creature for Dread Return and flying 2/2 beats and unkillable blocker. You can assume we always have to start the hand with a Dredger if you want, altho' I think hands with Careful Study + Breakthrough or Faithless Looting + Lion's Eye Daimond or Cephalid Coliseum, Breakthrough and Lion's Eye Diamond are keepable personally.
I've been debating -3 Tireless Tribe for +1 Golgari Thug and +2 Dread Return for awhile in this list and just playing my post-board configuration for Dredge G1 to save on the board space, altho' I'm at a loss for what I'd use it for ...
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