All B/R update speculation.

[Final Ritual]

I think we should revisit Survival getting unbanned. We now have snapcaster Mage to rebuy swords and paths. We also have surgicals from the board to fight that deck. At the height of survivalvine control decks didn't have the tools to keep it in check. I believe a deck like stoneblade has a positive matchup against it.

[Lemnear]

I think we should revisit Survival getting unbanned. We now have snapcaster Mage to rebuy swords and paths. We also have surgicals from the board to fight that deck. At the height of survivalvine control decks didn't have the tools to keep it in check. I believe a deck like stoneblade has a positive matchup against it.

People had the option to play maindeck grave hate, spell snare, pridemages or other enchantment-removal but refused to play it because ranting is easier than metagaming.

Hilarious enough that after survival was choped decks began to pack spell snare and artifact/enchantment removal against the uprising stoneblades (SFM+equip)

I would not expect that the DCI touches survival for the next 2 years

[bruizar]

I finally managed to offload 2 of my 8 survivals. I hope it doesn't come back. Not because I think the card is broken but because of those f**ng whiners that got it banned in the first place. It should be so that banning is something that is a nearly permanent step in the game, with perhaps a once in 5 to 10 years re-evaluation.

[Justin]

People had the option to play maindeck grave hate, spell snare, pridemages or other enchantment-removal but refused to play it because ranting is easier than metagaming.

Hilarious enough that after survival was choped decks began to pack spell snare and artifact/enchantment removal against the uprising stoneblades (SFM+equip)

I would not expect that the DCI touches survival for the next 2 years

A format in which you have to play maindeck graveyard hate in order to compete is not a healthy one. Survival deserved to be banned and deserves to stay banned.

[bruizar]

A format in which you have to play maindeck graveyard hate in order to compete is not a healthy one. Survival deserved to be banned and deserves to stay banned.

Let's ban Knight of the Reliquary, Snapcaster Mage and Tarmogoyf next then..

[xfxf]

We don't play dedicated maindeck graveyard hate to deal with those creatures.

[Birkardo]

I do. Awkward meta in my neighborhood.

[Lemnear]

A format in which you have to play maindeck creature hate in order to compete is not a healthy one. Survival deserved to be banned and deserves to stay banned.

Fixed. Dedicating 8+ slots in mainboards for a certain card type in order to be viable is always questionable for the Health or diversity of a format. In vintage it's Common to reserve a huge amount of Space in your 75 for graveyard-, Control- and artifact-hate ... Legacy seem Not to be able to handle more than creatures.

People gladly use 20% of their mainboard for cards like stp, pte, scm or terminus because they think it's normal that in Legacy all evolves around the creature cards. Every time a strategy, that cannot be handled by these common standards, is successful this thread and the like are fired up (storm, S&T, reanimator lately).




Extend topic:

But the fault was made by WotC; printing the best and splashiest effects on creatures only just open-eyed caused the Problems with reanimator, s&T, sneak attack and survival. Look at Griselbrand, eternal Whitness, sfm, snapcaster, revoker, pridemage, KotR, etc. and think about their respective non-creature counterparts.

[(nameless one)]

Again with the Survival talks. What is this, Winter of 2010?

[bruizar]

Couldn't agree with Lemnear more. A format that falls apart without 4x STP is just as broken as one that falls apart without 4x GY hate.

[xfxf]

Decks utilizing creatures is a much bigger set than the decks utilizing the graveyard, so I think playing with creatures is a more essential part of the game compared to playing graveyard based strategies, which is a smaller subset, so I think 4 maindeck creature removal is more acceptable than 4 maindeck graveyard hate. Plus, creature removal doesn't turn on and off the deck with creatures. Graveyard hate turns off the graveyard decks until they are answered which then turns the deck graveyard deck on. So it becomes a question of fighting over the hate.

There's even more. Combo decks like OmniTell, High Tide, ANT don't really run 4 creature removal and are fine with it. But those decks run 3-4 SB graveyard hate even today, so if Survival were to unbanned, combined with Vengevine, it would become the alpha Predator of the meta and even ridiculous decks like OmniTell would have to run some form of hate maindeck in order to survive. I think the comparison between creature hate vs. graveyard hate is misplaced.

[Mr Miagi]

Decks utilizing creatures is a much bigger set than the decks utilizing the graveyard, so I think playing with creatures is a more essential part of the game compared to playing graveyard based strategies, which is a smaller subset, so I think 4 maindeck creature removal is more acceptable than 4 maindeck graveyard hate. Plus, creature removal doesn't turn on and off the deck with creatures. Graveyard hate turns off the graveyard decks until they are answered which then turns the deck graveyard deck on. So it becomes a question of fighting over the hate.

Survival always includes cratures aswell so you have at least 4+ maindeck hate + 3-4 postboard.. don't even start me on the counters in legacy, gsz and pridemage... so that make's it in average like what at least 4-10 maindeck hate and 3-4 postboard?

Playing Survival deck vs Omni or what every Show and tell based deck is a joke.. for the Show and tell deck that is..

[kiblast]

Decks utilizing creatures is a much bigger set than the decks utilizing the graveyard,

That's the current state of things. But if things go differently, you need to adapt.

so I think playing with creatures is a more essential part of the game compared to playing graveyard based strategies which is a smaller subset, so I think 4 maindeck creature removal is more acceptable than 4 maindeck graveyard hate.

Again, this is not a rule written somewhere. If (just a stupid example) you have certain data regarding a certain meta saying that 70% of the players are playing blue.decks, there is nothing wrong in maindecking Choke or Reb. What's essential in a format like Legacy? Something which is only a small portion of the meta today may become a huge contender in 48 hrs. What is acceptable in your own mindset regarding the state of the game is not important. Preconceptions can possibly lead to wrong mindsets (this happened in the Survival era when people refused to change their habits to fight the meta), you want to avoid them as much as possible. There is no rule saying that every UWx.deck has to include:

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

But in reality, when we build an UWx.deck 99% of the times those are the first 12 cards we sleeve. Why? Because we feel those are needed to fight legacy as it is now. But what if, after realizing that Graveyard strategies are taking over aggrocontrol decks, we start feeling that maindeck Surgicals are needed? Just sleeve them.There's nothing wrong with that.

so if Survival were to unbanned, combined with Vengevine, it would become the alpha Predator of the meta and even ridiculous decks like OmniTell would have to run some form of hate maindeck in order to survive. I think the comparison between creature hate vs. graveyard hate is misplaced.

I think you are highly exaggerating the impact of SotF here.

[xfxf]

Graveyard strategies and creatures are apples and oranges. Creatures are a fundemental aspect of the game. Graveyard strategies are strategies just like any other in a broader sense. I find it comical when people get annoyed with a deck (say Stoneblade) and go on a crusade about this other irrelevant card just to prove a point.

But to play your game, I'd be fine with switching my Surgicals from SB to main (I like the card, it has nice art) if majority of the decks utilized the graveyard in a fundamental way (like they do with creatures). If I have to play maindeck hate just for 2 decks in a format composed of almost 60 viable decks then there's a problem. As it is, this abstract idea of a utopic metagame (without preconceptions) revolving around graveyard strategies and the normality of playing dedicated gy hate isn't very meaningful.

[Lemnear]

If i recall the fundamental Description of Magic: The Gathering it's all about a battle between 2 magicians that fight each other with spells and summon allies (creatures), enchantments, and artifacts to achieve victory.

Non is written that creatures have any higher standing than any other Card type. Fact is, that MaRo made it his Personal 7-year-crusade to boost creatures to be on-par with the Old-framed eternal staples, which is a Good idea in general because creatures sucked back then (psychatog was considered One of the best creatures ever printed back then; gives a hint)

But another fact is that at some points he and the other developers did too much. Emrakul as a card is a joke like griselbrand, jin, nacatl, titans, Delver, tarmogoyf (which outclassed EVERY creature printed before, discussed 4 banning and is now outclassed by delver or KotR; hilarious) etc.

Impressions:

Back then - today

Brainstorm - preordain
Mana Drain - cancel
Yawmoth's Will - Past in flames

Kird Ape - Wild nacatl
Serendib efreet - delver of secrets
Juzaam Djinn - Tombstalker
Elvish Warrior/Lhurgoyf - tarmogoyf


@kiblast
I want to take out your post 4 dinner

[xfxf]

Non is written that creatures have any higher standing than any other Card type.

Exactly my point. Graveyard based strategies is not a card type. Creatures are.

Edit: Incase my argument is lost, I'm arguing against the suggestion that the necesity of playing graveyard hate maindeck is akin to playing creature removal and thus it should be considered normal.

[Lemnear]

Exactly my point. Graveyard based strategies is not a card type. Creatures are.

Edit: Incase my argument is lost, I'm arguing against the suggestion that the necesity of playing graveyard hate maindeck is akin to playing creature removal and thus it should be considered normal.

I got your argument before. Seems you missed mine:

I just mentioned, that i cannot see why "creature beatdown" as strategy is the holy cow in Legacy.

Nobody complains that every deck in Legacy (even combo decks like TES) Run creature hate in MB and/or SB but as soon as the need for Stack-, graveyard-, enchantment- or artifact interaction increases, the Forums are flooded with rants and QQ

[LennonMarx]

Creatures have the natural property of being able to deal with themselves. You don't have to have 4 Swords to beat zoo if you also have guys, and a nice sized sub-set of spells that deal with creatures also have the added benefit of killing your opponent. To contrast, the cards that we have now (and certainly had then) to deal with Survival (and graveyard hate in general) deal only with Survival/the graveyard (possible exception to Scavenging Ooze). The game isn't interactive, it's "Is my opponent playing the busted deck? If yes, do I have one of my cards that matters? No? I lose," or "Oh, he's playing a fair deck and I drew double surgical, I guess I lose."

That's a game I can't wait to play.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

Nobody complains that every deck in Legacy (even combo decks like TES) Run creature hate in MB and/or SB but as soon as the need for Stack-, graveyard-, enchantment- or artifact interaction increases, the Forums are flooded with rants and QQ

Well, for one, normal creatures (i.e. not stuff dropping from stupid cards like S&T or other cheaty methods) are not nearly as threatening as other strategies are. Sure, they can be pretty powerful, but nowhere near the power of a Dredged yard, Tendrils plus nine of his best friends, Solitary lock, or the full Stax package.

And more importantly, every color and every archetype can deal with creatures effectively, most of the time with stuff that fits easily maindeck. The same can't be said about other strategies. Blue has a monopoly on good stack interaction (until NuRavnica, where White can run that sweet Cursecatcher Owl, likely in Maverick) and a lot of the other stuff boils down to playing 4x Hope//Pray, and hoping variance doesn't screw you over as you try to draw those hosers along with a playable hand. Also, you're probably down a game because you couldn't interact with the opponent in game one. Good luck.

The core of Maverick (GSZ, Knight+utility lands, utility creatures/hatebears with nice bodies) has been a step in the right direction. Give people some ways to interact with non-critter decks that can safely be run maindeck without being an albatross around your neck. And that doesn't happen to cost 3UU or a card plus a life point. But more needs to be done if you want to stop people from bitching about "creature-challenged" decks. Other colors, other archetypes need stuff they can run in their starting 60 that give them a chance against "unfair" strategies. Not cards that say "I win", but at least something that can make 5-95 matchups into something a little less terrible. Until then, people are going to bitch, because "side in 4x Crypt" or "Mindbreak Trap" will help isn't going to placate them.

[Lemnear]

Well, for one, normal creatures (i.e. not stuff dropping from stupid cards like S&T or other cheaty methods) are not nearly as threatening as other strategies are. Sure, they can be pretty powerful, but nowhere near the power of a Dredged yard, Tendrils plus nine of his best friends, Solitary lock, or the full Stax package.

Staxx? Solitary Lock?

I can swear that at least 6/8 T8-Decks worldwide contain One of These 3 creature strategies:

1) cheat Giant i-win-creature into Play
2) Play a undercosted creature and "brakes" for Opponents gameplan
3) creature bestdown

The discussion about cannonist being "too narrow" to maindeck vs. Storm on this Board was enlightend: People want their 3/3 for G with hatebear abilities.

Look that Lodstone did to vintage! Thalia, new cursecatcher-bird, clique, etc.: It's always problematic if you Print a kill-condition and disruption on the same card, or does anybody think a SPell piece that additionally deal 2 damage to a Target is a good idea? WotC does exactly this atm in regards to creatures.