Everytime I try to play 19 lands, I get punished by drawing all of them. *sigh* Never doing 19 lands ever again with this deck.Originally Posted by Koby
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Find me on MTGO as Koby or rukcus -- @MTGKoby on Twitter
* Maverick is dead. Long live Maverick!
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Is there any way to mix luck? I play 20 lands and played an 8 rd Swiss yesterday (17 total games) and had a 7-card no-land mulligan three times!
You must be a very lucky person. Personally with 19 lands i have problems.
Stifles, Probes, Overmaster, 1 or 2 Omniscience, Cliques, Jaces, Karakas, REB, More Accel, What ever you think you will be facing the most, pack a few answers for.
Drawing and cantrip into land gets worse for this deck after the first few (3+)are already in hand or play. 18 lands can be supported and it has before-The old GP list-. There is a minimum of 8 Cantrips, 4 Sol lands, and 4 Accelerators in most every build easing the 18 land count. Land slots would be replaced with additional acceleration like Seething Song, and Simian Spirit Guide. Playing 5 or more Sol Ring lands also helps.
I still get those too. The hands that are just terrible are the 2 cantrip hand that you shuffler after your Ponder finds bricks, then hit a pocket of lands afterwards. More lands = more dead draws.
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Find me on MTGO as Koby or rukcus -- @MTGKoby on Twitter
* Maverick is dead. Long live Maverick!
My Legacy stream
My MTG Blog - Work in progress
Has any of you tried out Snapcaster Mage? With 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, some Spell Pierce and some Flusterstorm, and of course 4 Show and Tell, seems that helps...
More expensive cantrips and Show and Tells? No thank you, I'd rather keep these slots for protection/1mana cantrips.
I have a a different view on this:
- What is most important for the deck is to control it's draw. Therefore I play 11 cantrips. "Basic Island" Ponder/Preordain is what I want except for having nut-draws.
- The nature of the combo is that you have 8 creatures where you don't want more than 1 and half of the enablers (sneak attack) are usually also bad/clunky in multiples. Hence, you get a lot of virtual mulligans or clunky hands you should mulligan.
- Mulligan with this deck is not necessarily a bad thing because the power level is so high and you have to "trust in randomness" that you get better hands going down to 6 or 5 on a regular basis.
Now comes the math (which I do not calculate, I judge by my feeling):
Which scenario hurts more (compare 18 lands (13 blue sources) with 4 petal vs. 20 lands (15 blue sources) 3 petal)
Assume you already have 4 mana sources drawn. How much more likely is it to draw an extra manasource on an unfiltered draw (keep in mind only 1 manasource more in the 20 land build)?
-> too lazy to calculate but I guess it is negligeble and experiences of people going up to 19 and then beeing flooded for some games is just variance and has to be evaluated without the emotions.
How often should you mulligan to 6 and to 5? (I think the number is pretty high; Courious what you think.)
How much more often willl I end up without a blue source if I mulligan to 6 or 5.
here I know the number out of MWS for the opening 7:
- 15 blue sources chances are 88% to get a blue source;
- 13 blue sources chances are 84% to get a blue source;
If it is already 4% in the opening hand, I guess the number will add up to a significant amount going down to 6 and 5, which makes a high number of blue sources necessary (and please don't tell me to win games with a temporary blue source).
Another factor is of course how often will your opponents deck try to disrupt your mana development? Tipp: (In legacy probably the most common forms of disruption.)
To be fair what is not calculated is how much more you can go off 1 turn earlier running 1 petal more, but I think this number is again pretty low.
My conclusion:
Beeing able to comfortable mulligan to 5 and beeing more resistant vs. mana disruption (wasteland, Port, Thalia, Daze, Pierce) is much more important than getting a little bit more flooded. Of course I am open to be convinced otherwise if someone can show the math behind the argument.
Currently playing: Elves
I also think that more lands are better. Especially against the decks without counters that can only stop you with mana denial it is extremely comfortable to be immune to that denial; same against RUG.
Chris' GenCon winning list played 25 mana sources (it's also my stock list right now) and it feels just right. Especially with more Petals/Spirit Guides you are really explosive. With 18 lands I often have the 1 Tomb hand.
I've been tinkering with a janky Ug version of this deck, and i was wondering what you guys thought.
Lands//21
2 ancient tomb
1 city of traitors
3 island
4 misty rainforest
4 tropical island
2 flooded strand
1 wooded foothills
4 mutavault
creatures//13
4 emrakul, the aeons torn
3 griselbrand
1 progenitus
4 mothdust changling
1 shapesharer
cheat spells//8
4 descendant's path
4 show and tell
spells//18
4 force of will
4 brainstorm
3 spell pierce
4 sensei's divining top
1 intuition
1 personal tutor
1 worldly tutor
sideboard//
3 echoing truth
2 karakas
4 tormod's crypt
1 flusterstorm
1 spell pierce
2 krosan grip
1 moment's peace
1 intuition
With descendant's path you actually get to cast emrakul to get the extra turn. This deck was inspired by a noob online playing tribal treefolk, but I still like the idea. Changeling-> win
Simple enough. The deck does not have much to say for itself as far as speed against any of the current lists, but it's usually fast enough. The little critters actually do a lot when facing a ridiculous amount of innocent bloods/smallpox/gatekeepers, but other than that they just try to stall/activate the path.
This isn't a UG-Version of Sneak & Show, it's a different deck. ;-) Wrong thread I think.
Could he find a home in Sneak & Show? :D
Suffers from the same issues as the big green persist guy: Swords to Plowshares. Both are basically playable only with Sneak Attack, and that is not what this deck wants from it's creatures.
Some of my friends sell records,
some of my friends sell drugs.
I agree with hopo, you never want your creature to get stp'ed (and not get at least 7 new cards out of the deal :)).
Even without the STP consideration, by the time I get sneak attack online I feel I am often so far behind that I need Anihilator 6 to win. This beast far away from playable.
Currently playing: Elves
I agree that the new wurm doesn't come close to making the cut with Emrakul and Griselbrand available. That speaks to the power creep of Magic today. A few years ago, he would have been a nice addition to a Sneak Attack deck.
I see more than others do because I know where to look.
Why is so bad, in late game to play again and again your ponders, your brainstorms and your spell pierce ? And from sideboard your Pyroclasm, and your Surgical Extraction ? As I said before this deck has 9 open slots for cards. Some players play Misdirection or Intuition or Overmaster or Flusterstorm or Daze or anything else. So, Snapcaster could be an option.
Well... after 4 hours playtesting, I figured out that Snapcaster is not so helpful. I spend 2 mana and 1 more, and with that cost i could play an Intuition and get anything I want. Im not a very lucky person, and sometimes after 2-3 ponders and 1 Snapcaster I still missed to get a creature. That's my first observation. I cut Snapcaster and return back to Intuition.
Observation no2 : Iam wondering when ppl will switch back to Progenitus. Cards like Mangara of Corondor, Oblivion Ring, Gilded Drake and ofcourse Swords to Plowshares and Karakas are a big trouble.
I test a version with 3 Emrakuls, 3 Griselbrands, and 3 Progenitus. From some early matches Progenitus won me some games. And that's very promising.
What I think is The best version of this deck, runs Omniscience in addition to 2 to 3 Sneak Attacks. The lists are all over MTGO.
Sample list:
60 cards
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
20 lands
3 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Griselbrand
6 creatures
4 Brainstorm
4 Burning Wish
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Lotus Petal
4 Omniscience
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
3 Show and Tell
2 Sneak Attack
34 other spells
With only 4 Force of Will and 3 more pseudocounters ? No thanx.
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