[Deck] Goblins

[B-rad]

oh another debate! tarfire is so good against flipped delvers, as well as stoneforge mystics. it also helps do those extra few points of damage at the end, which added to extra chieftain damage over warchief, and also opponents using fetchlands to hurt themselves, have won me many tight games. being able to matron and ringleader for tarfire and keeping the mana curve low makes them very playable in a removal heavy chieftain / winstigator build.

I feel like you're losing a lot of flexibility with the way you built your deck. One of the biggest strengths goblins has is it's ability to play any role required depending on what you're facing. You seem to be all in on the aggressive get you dead build whereas I like to be able to play what is needed in each matchup. There are times where being the aggressor is right but other times I wanna play a midrangey type game and port/waste them while sticking a dude here or there. Sure you can Tarfire delvers but you can also just GI them and not give Tarmogoyfs the tribal boost.

[orcanmail]

ok my sb helps

3 pyro v maverick etc
4 chalice of void
2 tormods crypt
2 relic of progenitus
3 thorn of amethyst
boartusk ( currently )


so i can play delay with wastelands and thorns and chalices to get to mid game if i want.

also chieftains have pressure at start, but still get the mid game as well with matrons and ringleader

also very flexible, vials and gempalms uncounterable, stingscourgers bounce off vial, warfren instigators give more lackey effects, still got piledrivers to race, krenko is a beast, sgc also finishers, and of course heart is still matrons, ringleaders and lackeys.
Game 1 tarfire is still damage, stingscourgers and gempalms goblins, so no dead cards.

i've beaten goblins, reanimator, maverick, rug delver, show and tell, and many others with this mono red build.

i don't like rishadan port, and card draw, creatures, direct damage and tricks is formidable.

[Annatar]

When it comes to removal spells I think the safest bet is not to put all your eggs into one basket. As long as it is varied enough there will be very few situations you won't be able to wiggle out of. However, two restrictions apply:

1) It has to be a card that can be fetched out via Goblin Matron or Goblin Ringleader
2) It has to be a card that can help Mogg Lackey connect on turn two

With that in mind, my removal choice for the maindeck is as follows:

2 Mogg Fanatic
2 Tarfire
1 Stingscourger
2 Gempalm Incinerator

Mogg Fanatic is probably the weakest of the bunch, but I play him because there is a substantial amount of Dredge in my metagame and a smattering of Elves, so having another out to Bridge from Below that can also take out a Putrid Imp, not to mention all non-Nettle Sentinel one drops in an Elf deck, can't be all bad.

[Greenpoe]

(2) Raging River
I stumbled over this card. I won't explain in detail what my thoughts are behind this card - I'm waitring for you to gve your impressin on this, first. Please read the card carefully before commenting on it.

Caterwauling Boggart might be 4 mana, but it is superior to Raging River.

[magicmerl]

When it comes to removal spells I think the safest bet is not to put all your eggs into one basket.

I like my removal spells to also draw me cards. For that reason, I think that 4 Gempalm Incinerator is a must.

Goblins is a bunch of mana accelerants (lackey, vial, warchieft), a bunch of library manipulation (ringleader, matron). Really most of the rest of the deck should be removal spells and glue cards to make the rest of the deck stick together well.

However, two restrictions apply:

1) It has to be a card that can be fetched out via Goblin Matron or Goblin Ringleader
2) It has to be a card that can help Mogg Lackey connect on turn two

Agreed to both. I don't think that Pyrokinesis is a MD card.

Do you count Sharpshooter as a removal spell?

[Sasan]

Ok I read your messages and opinions and want to share my current goblin deck list with u. I would love some comments :D

Goblins Maindeck

4 Arid Mesa
1 Badlands
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Mountain
3 Rishadan Port
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
4 Wasteland
________________________________

4 Goblin Lackey
1 Skirk Prospector
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Mogg War Marshal
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Hooligan
4 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Siege-Gang Commander
________________________________

4 AEther Vial
________________________________



Sideboard
1 Stingscourger
1 Tin Street Hooligan
3 Earwig Squad
1 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pyrokinesis


Is the mana base ok? Any sideboard suggestions? Can I use earwing squad against reanimator too besides relic? I feel 3 graveyard hate cards are not much so perhaps I can achieve some hate by earwing squad and taking them away precious cards for their combo.

[Annatar]

@magicmerl

It think you're favouring the cantrip effect of Gempalm Incinerator over it's reliability as a removal spell. We already have, arguably, the best card advantage engine in the format (Goblin Matron + Goblin Ringleader) so insisting on incidental removal with card draw attached doesn't seem reasonable to me.
I didn't qualify Goblin Sharpshooter as a removal spell since it fails the 2nd criteria I have for those spells (help Goblin Lackey connect on turn two)

@Sasan

First thing that comes to mind is that you are playing way to few mana sources. Playing less then 22 in a deck as mana hungry as Goblins is just asking for trouble.

Earwig Squad also fails to impress. It takes a lot of serious work to get this card to do what you want it to do against the decks that don't leave you with the time to do so or have very real means to stop you in the process. If I understood correctly, the crainal effect happens only if you cast the squad by paying it's prowl cost. This "could" happen as early as turn two even through countermagic, but more likely you will play it on turn three or later, when the game is more then likely already over against most of the combo decks. Chalice of the Void would be my recommendation for a sideboard card against combo, by reasoning it is way more flexible and has applications in a wider assortment of matchups.

[Nelis]

@magicmerl

It think you're the cantrip effect of Gempalm Incinerator over it's reliability as a removal spell.

I'm missing a word here. What do you mean to say here?

so insisting on incidental removal with card draw attached doesn't seem reasonable to me.

Do I interpreter you correctly here that you don't see Gempalm as a very important removal spell? Oh wait one of your previous posts explains your reasoning. I completely disagree with your thinking. To me gempalm is the best removal spell we can wish for. I find it a very reliable removal spell and the cantripping has saved my ass numerous times especially in smoothing draws to get to the 4th or 5th land. Having said that I think I do understand why you don't like it that much because sometimes its too slow to get rid of the early threats*. But the cantripping and the fact that it cant be countered compensates for its slowness. And its ability to kill larger creatures should not be underestimated. Another reason could be the different ways of playing goblins, I almost always play the deck in a controlling way. Thats why I run 4 MWM and 4 Gempalm, setting up early game to finish my opponent off in midgame. * I see you're very focused on getting that first turn lackey through. That's probably why you are so set on your removal configuration.

When it comes to removal spells I think the safest bet is not to put all your eggs into one basket. As long as it is varied enough there will be very few situations you won't be able to wiggle out of. However, two restrictions apply:

1) It has to be a card that can be fetched out via Goblin Matron or Goblin Ringleader
2) It has to be a card that can help Mogg Lackey connect on turn two

With that in mind, my removal choice for the maindeck is as follows:

2 Mogg Fanatic
2 Tarfire
1 Stingscourger
2 Gempalm Incinerator

Mogg Fanatic is probably the weakest of the bunch, but I play him because there is a substantial amount of Dredge in my metagame and a smattering of Elves, so having another out to Bridge from Below that can also take out a Putrid Imp, not to mention all non-Nettle Sentinel one drops in an Elf deck, can't be all bad.

It seems to me you in a way are putting all your eggs in one basket if your main focus is getting your lackey to hit. Of course its nice to actually have it connect on turn two but its not a necessity because of our card advantage engine. We can afford the longer game. It seems to me it is because you restrict yourself to that line of reasoning you feel the need of varied removal spells. I personally think it's not necessary.

[Sasan]

@magicmerl

It think you're favouring the cantrip effect of Gempalm Incinerator over it's reliability as a removal spell. We already have, arguably, the best card advantage engine in the format (Goblin Matron + Goblin Ringleader) so insisting on incidental removal with card draw attached doesn't seem reasonable to me.
I didn't qualify Goblin Sharpshooter as a removal spell since it fails the 2nd criteria I have for those spells (help Goblin Lackey connect on turn two)

@Sasan

First thing that comes to mind is that you are playing way to few mana sources. Playing less then 22 in a deck as mana hungry as Goblins is just asking for trouble.

Earwig Squad also fails to impress. It takes a lot of serious work to get this card to do what you want it to do against the decks that don't leave you with the time to do so or have very real means to stop you in the process. If I understood correctly, the crainal effect happens only if you cast the squad by paying it's prowl cost. This "could" happen as early as turn two even through countermagic, but more likely you will play it on turn three or later, when the game is more then likely already over against most of the combo decks. Chalice of the Void would be my recommendation for a sideboard card against combo, by reasoning it is way more flexible and has applications in a wider assortment of matchups.

thanks for the great input :D

so what would you cut for the 22nd mana source?

and is chalice really superior to e. squad? ok it is good vs storm..but is it also good against omni tell? as show and tell costs 3 mana you must spend 6 to effectively counter it with chalice. am I right?

[Asgar]

Hey Players of the Cutest Legacy Deck :)

Im going to the Big Legacy Tournament in Milan and want to pick up my Petdeck for this, but heres the Problem. I've read and read and read and just couldn't Figure out, what 75 are best for such a Tournament. I went to Amsterdam last year and made a reasonably 7-2 into day 2, where i got eaten up by 3 RUG-Decks in a Row.
The list is from before the Show and Tell Era, before Cavern of Souls aaand as i said not that well positioned against RUG.

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Warren Instigator
1 Tin-street Hooligan
3 Warren Weirding
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang-Commander
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Mountain
1 Swamp
3 Badlands
2 Taiga
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port

Sideboard

4 Leyline of the Void
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Perrish
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Pyrostatic Pillar

Choices:
Instigator is great against Combo and is on the Question part (can you handle me?) instead of the Answer part (i can stall you for 1-2 more turns <-- MWM)
Weirding is good, because it allows you to take the Control Plan all in all, its hard removel against Mongoose, Stoneforge and anything, that comes of from a reanimation spell or Show and Tell at Turn 2. Not really bad against mother or Hierarch either.
2 Chieftains, because they make your Wennies bigger. If you have a bunch of 2/2s and 3/3s, instead of 1/1s and 2/2s, that makes a difference. Also more fast-dmg cards against Combo, Next to Pile and Instigator.


I See Cavern changed a lot in possibilities and the massive Storm hate (wich made me won 3 of 4 Combo-Matches in Amsterdam) has now to be against Sneakshow and Omniscience, too.

I'd love to hear suggestions from you guys, how i could adapt my list. The nicest new list i saw here was from Tobias Dreger, so maybe if you tell me my Ideas are not longer suitable, I'll just play something like that with a slightly different SB and 1 Chieftain for the 4th MWM.

Best Greetz,
Asgar

[Annatar]

thanks for the great input :D

so what would you cut for the 22nd mana source?

and is chalice really superior to e. squad? ok it is good vs storm..but is it also good against omni tell? as show and tell costs 3 mana you must spend 6 to effectively counter it with chalice. am I right?

Well, since Omni-tell can "go off" on turn one on the play, there aren't that many things you can do about it. Stick to those Red Elemental Blasts and just hope for the best. If you didn't stop Show and Tell, you might get a shot at killing Omniscience before they do something nasty with it.

For the 23rd land I would probably cut a Piledriver.


@ Nelis

Truth be told, at this point in my local metagame playing that much removal maindeck doesn't make much sense, since over half of it is made up by combo decks. I could probably cut Tarfire for the 3rd Gempalm and a MWM. This setup will probably do better against RUG Delver, since MWM is quite good in that matchup. I might miss Tarfire against Elves but I think can live with it.
The reason why I'm going to try and cut Tarfire and not Mogg Fanatic is that, at this point, there are no decks with Stoneforge Mystic at large, whereas Dredge is a popular deck choice.

[jrw1985]

thanks for the great input :D

so what would you cut for the 22nd mana source?

and is chalice really superior to e. squad? ok it is good vs storm..but is it also good against omni tell? as show and tell costs 3 mana you must spend 6 to effectively counter it with chalice. am I right?

I would cut 1 MWM from your list. He's great against fair decks but gets cumbersome against combo. I've been running three and loving it.

Chalice is certainly better than E Squad when you're going to die T2. It isn't great against OmniTell since they play a higher curve and can really afford to wait to go off. But E Squad is OK against some of their lines of play. Regardless, Chalice should only ever come in against Omni if they're playing Lotus Petals and you're on the play. Otherwise it's a waste of a slot. E Squad is ok but remember that they have Wish targets that Earwig can't touch, and once they've sculpted a winning hand E Squad can't touch it anyway. Earwig has been touted as an anti-combo card, but I honestly just find it better when it's removing equipment or silver bullets. It's really too slow to be a reliable anti combo card, and the fact that it can't touch cards in hand is also a big strike against it.

[Nelis]

@ Nelis

Truth be told, at this point in my local metagame playing that much removal maindeck doesn't make much sense, since over half of it is made up by combo decks. I could probably cut Tarfire for the 3rd Gempalm and a MWM. This setup will probably do better against RUG Delver, since MWM is quite good in that matchup. I might miss Tarfire against Elves but I think can live with it.
The reason why I'm going to try and cut Tarfire and not Mogg Fanatic is that, at this point, there are no decks with Stoneforge Mystic at large, whereas Dredge is a popular deck choice.

I understand that you play fanatic if Dredge is rampant and why you're so set on Lackey connecting. Maybe its better if you play another deck in that metagame?

[Annatar]

I understand that you play fanatic if Dredge is rampant and why you're so set on Lackey connecting. Maybe its better if you play another deck in that metagame?

I'm biased towards Goblins. I've been playing it longer then most of the players in my "meta" played Legacy and I am competent that I can outplay them or just plain bash their face with a tuned goblin list.

I've won almost all of my Wastelands by playing it, I'm still making good results with it (finished 1st in a small 4 round tourney yesterday) so I will continue to play the deck until that changes, if it does at all.

[Sasan]

I would cut 1 MWM from your list. He's great against fair decks but gets cumbersome against combo. I've been running three and loving it.

Chalice is certainly better than E Squad when you're going to die T2. It isn't great against OmniTell since they play a higher curve and can really afford to wait to go off. But E Squad is OK against some of their lines of play. Regardless, Chalice should only ever come in against Omni if they're playing Lotus Petals and you're on the play. Otherwise it's a waste of a slot. E Squad is ok but remember that they have Wish targets that Earwig can't touch, and once they've sculpted a winning hand E Squad can't touch it anyway. Earwig has been touted as an anti-combo card, but I honestly just find it better when it's removing equipment or silver bullets. It's really too slow to be a reliable anti combo card, and the fact that it can't touch cards in hand is also a big strike against it.

Perhaps Thorn of Amethyst could slow down combo Decks?

My current sideboard idea is:
-3 red elemental blast
-4 relic
-3 thorn of Amethyst
- 3 Pyrokinesis
- 1 additional Hooligan
- 1 additional Stingcourger

Is this sideboard ok?

And thanks I will cut one MWM and add a mountain und cut the badlands and replace it with another taiga as I dont have black cards anymore. Or should I add another mountain instead of taiga as it is not a target for wastelands? :)

[GoboLord]

You should really start playtesting and thinking yourself. Don't get me wrong, you are welcome asking for advice here (this is actually what keeps discussion going), but in the end you will get several advices from different people and you have to build the deck yourself with those tips in mind.
I am strongly leaning towards 21 or even 20 lands since you are lowering your manacurve with more MWMs. Your sideboard is O.K., but I find Chalice > Thorn of Amethyst.

[Sasan]

You should really start playtesting and thinking yourself. Don't get me wrong, you are welcome asking for advice here (this is actually what keeps discussion going), but in the end you will get several advices from different people and you have to build the deck yourself with those tips in mind.
I am strongly leaning towards 21 or even 20 lands since you are lowering your manacurve with more MWMs. Your sideboard is O.K., but I find Chalice > Thorn of Amethyst.

Playtesting is difficult if there are not many magic events in town or friends playing magic. That is why I must approach my deck choices more theoretically.

[Annatar]

Perhaps Thorn of Amethyst could slow down combo Decks?

My current sideboard idea is:
-3 red elemental blast
-4 relic
-3 thorn of Amethyst
- 3 Pyrokinesis
- 1 additional Hooligan
- 1 additional Stingcourger

Is this sideboard ok?

And thanks I will cut one MWM and add a mountain und cut the badlands and replace it with another taiga as I dont have black cards anymore. Or should I add another mountain instead of taiga as it is not a target for wastelands? :)

As a lot of people already stated, Chalice of the Void is a better choice as far as combo hate goes.

I would try and diversify your graveyard hate. One of the reasons I like doing this is to make it more difficult for your opponents to hit your hate cards with Cabal Therapy or Pithing Needle. Something like this maybe:

1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Relic of Progenitus

Similar reasoning applies to Red Elemental Blast. You don't want to give your opponents an easy target for Surgical Extraction or something of the sort.

However, if you expect RUG to show up you might want to play two relics instead of one, since they are quite good in this matchup.

So, you might want to try something like this for starters:

2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Stingscourger
3 Chalice of the Void

The final slot could be used for artifact hate but honestly I'm not really sure if it's necessary. It's a metagame choice I suppose.

[magicmerl]

@magicmerl

It think you're favouring the cantrip effect of Gempalm Incinerator over it's reliability as a removal spell. We already have, arguably, the best card advantage engine in the format (Goblin Matron + Goblin Ringleader) so insisting on incidental removal with card draw attached doesn't seem reasonable to me.
I didn't qualify Goblin Sharpshooter as a removal spell since it fails the 2nd criteria I have for those spells (help Goblin Lackey connect on turn two)

Well, I don't play goblins as an aggro deck. I see it more as a combo-control deck, with a card tutoring/draw engine, mana accelerants in the form of lackey/vial/warchief, and a whole bunch of tokens as the combo.

You plan (hitting with lackey on T2) seems especially soft to spot removal. Do any of your opponents run lightning bolt or swords?

I'm missing a word here. What do you mean to say here?

He's saying that I value card drawing too highly (as if that's possible) :)

It seems to me you in a way are putting all your eggs in one basket if your main focus is getting your lackey to hit. Of course its nice to actually have it connect on turn two but its not a necessity because of our card advantage engine. We can afford the longer game. It seems to me it is because you restrict yourself to that line of reasoning you feel the need of varied removal spells. I personally think it's not necessary.

Completely agree.

I am strongly leaning towards 21 or even 20 lands since you are lowering your manacurve with more MWMs.

Actually, I still think that 22 land is right. *If* Goblins is a good deck, then we want more lands to make our powerful deck more consistent. And if it's a bad deck, we shouldn't be playing it. Not giving it an unstable manabase by shaving lands. Surplus lands can be turned into mana denial anyway.

[Sasan]

As a lot of people already stated, Chalice of the Void is a better choice as far as combo hate goes.

I would try and diversify your graveyard hate. One of the reasons I like doing this is to make it more difficult for your opponents to hit your hate cards with Cabal Therapy or Pithing Needle. Something like this maybe:

1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Relic of Progenitus

Similar reasoning applies to Red Elemental Blast. You don't want to give your opponents an easy target for Surgical Extraction or something of the sort.

However, if you expect RUG to show up you might want to play two relics instead of one, since they are quite good in this matchup.

So, you might want to try something like this for starters:

2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Stingscourger
3 Chalice of the Void

The final slot could be used for artifact hate but honestly I'm not really sure if it's necessary. It's a metagame choice I suppose.

Thanks. I will follow your advice. But I think I will go with two relics as I have many RUG /Canadian Decks in my meta.

But Chalice will harm my lackey and aether? and chalice is not good against show and tell decks but great against reanimator and storm. thorn of amethyst is less favorable against storm and reanimator but it slows them down and it is ok against show and tell. so it is perhaps better overall for combo hate in the current meta.