I think that the tokens get removed forever ... not 100% sure ...Originally Posted by 'Nilla Pac
Tokens are like farts in the wind.
If they get bounced, put in the graveyard, exiled, or phased out then they are gone forever.
D. Sphere clearly competes for EEs 1-3 slots.
The casting cost is not an issue. The REB argument is valid but can be ignored for most MUs. The token argument is relevant (L. Souls, EtAngels, Warrens) - those are actually the major reasons I was running EE over O.Ring in the first place.
Now CMC3 is way nicer for our CB curve compared to 0. I'll run 1-2 for a while and see how they perform.
I've been playing Miracle Control since miracles were legal and came to some interesting conclusions :
- In this deck snap caster mage is very rarely a CA ( I never won a game with SCM beats )
- Clique is very good in some MU and utterly useless in others ( that's why I plan 2 in my side board )
- The reason I love this deck is because of it's consistency and solid mana base ( I tried a black and red splash and did not like it )
- I see PPL trying out Ponder or Portent to make the deck even more consistent.
In our deck Preordain is strictly better then both of the other options because it can clear the top of our library wile helping is find the answer that we need .
- Oring is a better overall answer then EE manly because of the existence of Show and Tell deck and the fast that Oring is 3CC ( Now that we have Sphere there is even less reason to play EE)
- Counterbalance is a MUST in the pure Miracle deck and is a bonus in the hybrid version
- now that Miracles is a DTB ppl are finding ways to beat Entreat the Angels That's why I thing that Hybrid version is better right now ( Gives you one more way to stabilize and win and you are less likely to time out )
here is my deck list :
COUNTERBALANCE CURVE :
1CC: 17
2CC: 8
3CC: 3
4CC: 3
5CC: 5
6CC: 3
WIN CONDITIONS :
3 Stoneforge
3 Jace
2 Entreat
Creatures [3]
3 Stoneforge Mystic
Instants [16]
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
Sorceries [8]
3 Preordain
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Terminus
Enchantments [4]
3 Counterbalance
1 Oblivion Ring
Artifacts [5]
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Batterskull
Planeswalkers [3]
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lands [21]
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Karakas
2 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
5 Island
Sideboard:
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Elspeth
2 Relic
2 Surgical
2 Disenchant
1 Path
1 Terminus
1 jitte
1 Humility
2 Clique
I'm also thinking of going for the Hybrid plan. Will test it out. Snapcaster is actually pretty decent from my experience, only when it is paired with other beats like say Factory, together they make a decent clock. I play Snares/Pierce/Counterspells so Snapcaster is really good in my build. I'm starting to like the hybrid builds because going to time is a major problem.
Also it gives opponents headaches when deciding how to board against us. Another strong point is that it gives us some MD solutions to tribal. The downside is that SFM is a target for removal. But a free Batterskull is still good, even if it might come down a little later.
In all honesty, you're already the best late-game deck in the format, and I think Snapcaster just doesn't matter. I really think the hybrid version is better, considering I was losing to it all last night.
A friend was running:
24ish lands
3 SFM
2? Vendilion Clique
3 Jace
3 Counterbalance
4 Top
3 Terminus
1 Entreat
4 Force
3 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
4 Swords
4 Brainstorm
1 Batterskull
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 EE
I can't remember the rest, since I was flipping through the list afterwards. The list was good and definitely did not require Snapcaster.
-Matt
I have been playing kobie spaeth's list for a few weeks now and i kinda like it. Usually the counterbalances belong in the sideboard and I only side it in against specific decks. How is the counterbalance main with SFM and terminus treating you guys so far? Always thought snapcaster mage has its utility in extra counterspells, brainstorms or even a pyroblast on a merfolk seems extremely good to me.
Kaslan, I question your statement that Preordain is better than Ponder or Portent in this deck. It is certainly not strictly better (do you understand the term?) because Portent can enable miracles. In fact, I would argue that it is the worst of the three. It allows you to see three cards while the others both allow four. And I don't think you can use its ability to clear the top of your deck as a point in Preordain's favor, since all three cards do that.
I believe Ponder versus Preordain comes down to the number of shuffle effects in your deck. I don't know where the point of equality is, but your list has 11, which should be enough to push Ponder significantly ahead.
So the real decision should come down to Ponder or Portent, unless you have another reason Preordain might be better.
I'm still not convinced why hybrid version of Miracle Control is preferable over straight Esper Blade. With Esper Blade you lose the Counter-Top but you gain discard and Snapcaster to recur it. With Esper Blade you lose Terminus but you gain Perish and Lingering Souls.
You stated it well -
EsperBlade:
+discard
+/- different sweepers
-Counterbalance
Not every metagame is beat with Discard + Perish; some metagames you want the Terminus and ways to counter blue/all-the stuff for a single mana. Snapping back a Pyroblast is in fact, value.
West side
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Hybrid is much less vulnerable to Wasteland. Esper Blade basically needs all three colors fairly early, so it almost has to fetch duals; I routinely finish games with nothing but basics on the table against wasteland decks with the hybrid build, and have no trouble casting everything I need to cast.
Congrats Adam. How about a tournament report?!
How are you managing to set up T1 Thoughtseize, T2 Stoneforge Mystic, and T4 Jace without fetching up your duals? And how are you fitting that many basics into your three-color list? I was unable to make that work with Esperblade, so I'm curious how you managed to resolve it.
So, my thoughts about win-conditions. A traditional Miracle list with 3-4 Jace, 2-3 Entreat, and some number of snapcasters and Cliques does not have enough win conditions. Snapcasters and Cliques are very unreliable for winning the game, in my opinion, so while they can do some damage I feel like they're more for the utility + trading with other creatures.
The problem is that even with a bunch of search effects, with only 5-7 win-conditions, you first will have trouble finding one and then even more trouble sticking one. Decks can usually deal with a couple threats, via counterspells or combat damage. Additionally, Surgical Extraction is a very real sideboard card, and if you're running so few win conditions matches will be effectively impossible to win under time constraints. While this can sometimes be a benefit in G1, when you lose G1 it makes it really hard to take the match. For this reason alone I think that more win-conditions are necessary. Also consider that needing to pitch Jace to Force of Will is a very real situation, and makes winning that much harder.
This is where it becomes a bit tricky to balance how many win-conditions. Win-conditions generally cost more mana, so if you run too many win-cons your draws can become clunkier. Additionally, you want your win-conditions to fill multiple roles: Able to win game on own, hard to deal with, and do good at controlling the game themselves. I think Jace and Entreat are pretty good in all of these respects.
This is where I think SFM is great addition to buffer the threat density. It keeps the hard to deal with (by bouncing if they try to destroy it or kill your creature), able to win game on own (by turning sideways), and control aspects (Vigilance + Lifelink does a lot of work to control board states) that our win-cons should have. However, what I think it also adds is a much more reasonable mana cost and can impact the board earlier with less setup. As such, draws with a SFM + Jace are much less clunky than something that's like Jace + Entreat. For these reasons I think SFM + Batterskull is a very useful inclusion. So adding SFM + Batterskull really enable you to find win-conditions much faster, while keeping many of the positive elements win-cons should have, while taking out the main negative one, the cost. As an added benefit we get another shuffle effect, which works well with a lot of the deck already.
Well, I am playing the following manabase:
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Academy Ruins
And it works perfectly fine. Ofc T1 TS T2 SFM T3 LS T4 JTMS is hard to manage for basiclands, but this doesnt happen too often.
Well, and while I am at it, let me tell you why I left Terminator and switched to Esperblade.
Terminator is the stronger Controldeck, no discussion. It has way more efficient sweepers and control-elements. Thats for sure.
But Esperblade is so much more flexible in kind of switching roles. This is, what makes it superior in my view. I am attending to two tournaments, in the next two weeks - one local and one big ( Ovino7 ) where I will be playing Esperblade. After that I might try to brew an decent Hybrid. But for now, I see Esperblade as the superior deck, nontheless because its favored against Terminator.
Greetings
I do understand the term and stick to what I said : Preordain is strictly better then Ponder & Portent in this deck.
It is true that mathematically speaking ponder and Portent dig a bit more then Preordain. But the fact that Preordain doesn't require a shuffle effect to dig for the answer you need and cleaning up the top of your library of unwanted cards makes it better.
As for Portent it is the worst of them all ... the slow draw is cute at best, way less effective at finding the answers you need on the spot. Portent triggering miracles is not that effective ... : I for one have never wanted to miracle a Terminus or an Entreat during the upkeep of my opponent. I always want to Miracle during combat or at then of turn to maximize the impact of my Miracles
@Phil, I think the fellas in the blade control thread would love to hear about your blade control decklist.
@Kaslan, I encourage alternative view points but saying strictly better makes it really easy to disapprove your statement. When you have 2-6 lands in play and your only out is terminus being cast before they attack, portent allows you to do so while preordain does not. Therefore in some cases portent is better.
:) I do agree. in that case I will change the strictly but 85% ( number pulled out of my A** ) of the time better :P
Been tinkering with the hybrid list and i think i will use it during this sat mini-tournament
1 Batterskull
4 Sensei's divining top
3 Stoneforge mystic
2 Snapcaster mage
2 Vendillion clique
3 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Spell pierce
1 Counterspell
3 Terminus
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Ponder
3 Jace, TMS
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
1 Glacial Fortress
2 Volcanic island
1 Karakas
4 Island
2 Plains
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