That is usually the case, legacy players usually stick to their decks.
If ever a strategy becomes popular (burn for instance), most decks will only change a couple of cards in their sideboard to address it.
So if you are expecting more stoneblade decks, I suggest adding more sulfuric vortex and smash to smithereens in the deck, but do not change it drastically as you might weaken your other matchups.
To force or not to force? That is the question.
Just want to share my experience with Price of Progress.
So far, playing PoP in small tournaments (low entry fee) was awfull. People are playing rdw, elves, dredge, merfolk and other cheaper decks with basics mana base.
By contrast, high entry brings people with expensive mana bases and then its punishing time
Anyone else?
Hey,
in my opinion Pop isn't that great in small tournaments. A lot of Decks without Duals and more and more ppl play around Pop as they see the first Red Card.
There is another Matchup bothering me alot lately.
How to beat Mono R Goblins?
Maybe i play the Matchup wrong but testings with standart UR lists put me somewhere near the 10% chance of wining a game vs Goblins.
I dont know how to adress the Matchup with the Sideboard. And in game 1 the Matchup is just awful.
I tried Rough / Tumble but it doenst even change anything. Goblins just swarm again after i played Roguht /Tumble
Any idears how to beat it ? Or is a Meta with Goblin players just not suited for UR ?
regards Dmnd
could try a bit of standard tech and use bonfire of the damned?Originally Posted by Dmnd
Regarding price of progress, that's just the way it is, you have to predict the metagame on what is the correct number to use. Personally I run 2 in the main and 1 in the side, as I don't like to see it in my opening hand and just need to draw to it as a finisher.
Goblins are favored against us, it all depends on how aggressive your draws are, I like to take the aggro role in this matchup as trying to control them is not possible. Early delver flips help this very much, always try to gauge if it is better to just burn them or their creatures. Bonfire is interesting as compared to Rough/Tumble it does not hurt our goblin guides, worth testing IMO.
To force or not to force? That is the question.
Burn out their Piledrivers, Counter their Lackey's and hope to land a Jitte to remove any thing else they happen to get. If you let them get board presence then they will turn that into silly combo's that gainthem advantage on top of advantage. U/R actually does not have the issue vs Goblins, as I also run a U/R Dreadstill deck and it mows through Goblins (it is a whopping 10 or so card change from my U/R Delver deck). Fire / Ice is a great card for the U/R decks so hopefully your using that and I have found that using some Man-Lands can help in the U/R decks as well.
Hope that helps.
Thanks for your advice,
i think i will test Bonefire and also Man-lands doesn't sound that bad.
I always wantet to try Standstill with Manlands in UR ... and shifting to Dreadnought crossed my mind too ;)
I thought of Searing Blaze but double R also means that Wlands of the Goblin Deck will hit more often.
Perhaps i just try to be faster at killing and only Counter Pyrokinesis
Lets see how well it will work on my local tournament on Saturday
regards Dmnd
I actually don't run Standstill in my Version with Dreadnoughts although I know most people would.
I have found that more Dig and Burn are more important than potential Card draw, especially as my meta has a few too many AEther Vials where Standstill is dead in the water.
Check out the Dreadstill - enter the fist thread to do some comparisons etc as the two decks are quite good, and I thought that marrying the two of them would be fun; I got lucky that it actually works in my area well enough too.
What's your Dreadstill List with U/R? I'm a little curious :)
I have trouble deciding between 18 and 19 lands. There are times when I just draw too much land and I hate it :) I'm just afraid of multiple Mulligans when I have 18 Lands and get mana screwed. I was thinking of including Ponder instead of the 19th Land.
The key to the match up with Goblins is an early Delver that Flips, or multiple weenies early on. Otherwise it will be very difficult to win as Goblins have the firepower and card advantage to beat us.
It follows both the Delver and the Dreadstill core lists; but also deviates a little from both. I find it fun to use as it plays a lot like Delver, right until you drop a 12/12 trample bomb on the table.
Deck List
4 x Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 x Delver of Secrets
3 x Snapcaster Mage
2 x Grim Lavamancer
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Force of Will
3 x Spell Pierce
3 x Daze
2 x Fire/Ice
2 x Ponder
3 x Lightning Bolt
4 x Stifle
2 x Trickbind
3 x Flooded Strand
3 x Scalding Tarn
3 x Volcanic Island
3 x Wasteland
3 x Island
1 x Mountain
4 x Mishra's Factory
Sideboard
2 x Engineered Explosives
2 x Tormod's Crypt
3 x Surgical Extraction
2 x Echoing Truth
1 x Gilded Drake
2 x Spell Snare
3 x Pyroblast
I do not suggest this list for anyone in a large meta, this is a fun list; but it has helped to learn how to play true Delver lists better. It helps to teach when to be aggressive and when to play the control game so I like it a lot.
Hope it helps someone out there
lavamancer, stifle, beb, rough/tumble, topor orb.
Gonna post a report soon. Went to a 3-3 Finish on our last Saturday's major tournament Legacy Wars. Winner got a set of Force of Will :(
Learned a lot though :) Fireblast also sucks so I'm removing it from my sideboard and making it into a Flames of the Bloodhand.
Finished 4-2 on the same tournament as blindspot. Started at 0-2
@blindspot, funny you would say that, I was actually thinking of adding more burn to the deck. I'm currently testing thunderous wrath and fireblast, with fireblast being more "reliable".
To force or not to force? That is the question.
Thing is Fireblast was in my opening hand in 2 games last tournament. It's one piece, call me unlucky lol I couldn't burn the opponent or his creatures without being all in. Also I was unlucky to have only 1 mountain in the whole game which is odd. (Volcanic Island got wastelanded and I drew my 2 islands in the deck). When the 2nd mountain came it was all over. What I like about Thunderous Wrath is it doesn't cause you to be all in if you were kinda screwed on lands.Finished 4-2 on the same tournament as blindspot. Started at 0-2
@blindspot, funny you would say that, I was actually thinking of adding more burn to the deck. I'm currently testing thunderous wrath and fireblast, with fireblast being more "reliable".
I also changed my land configuration to 2 Misty Rainforest instead of 3 Misty and 3 Arid Mesa and I upped my Arid Mesa count to 4. I noticed that in the games where I went to the burn plan and sided out my counters, I only needed like 1 blue source most of the time. Sulfuric Vortex is 1RR and Fireblast requires more mountains, these are also the matchups where Wasteland is in the opponent's decks. In the combo matchups we can just fetch our Volcanics for Blue source and they don't have Wasteland anyway.
Here is the 75 which I brought to last Saturday's Tournament (Legacy Wars Sept. 15, 2012)
Main Deck:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Price of Progress
2 Daze
4 Spell Pierce
3 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Mountain
2 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Arid Mesa
Sideboard:
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Smash to Smithereens
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Force of Will
1 Flusterstorm
1 Fireblast
2 Thunderous Wrath
4 Surgical Extraction
Tournament Report: (40 Players) <-- Could've been more if not for the Typhoon and Flooding lol
Round 1 (Omnitell)
Game 1
I play some early beats and a lavamancer, on the turn he casts Show and Tell with Griselbrand he was down to 3 and cannot draw from his Griselbrand. I have a Bolt in Hand and he has no counter.
Game 2 (In: 2 Vortex, 1 Flusterstorm, 1 Force of Will, 2 Red Elemental Blast, Out: 4 Chain Lightning, 2 Price of Progress)
I get 2 Goblin Guide beats and he casts Pyroclasm. I figure I don't have any other clocks and prolonging the game will only make him have more time to set up. I use my Force of Will. Next turn he Show and Tells Omniscience and I flip a Sulfuric Vortex. I made this mistake because I thought he was on Sneak Show only to figure out he was using Omniscience. The Vortex is for the Griselbrand, he plays an Emrakul and Griselbrand and seals the deal.
Game 3
I keep a hand with Force of Will and Daze and a Delver. Delver Flips early and is joined later on by a Goblin Guide. He casts a turn 2 Burning Wish which I Daze because I'm sure he's going for an Overmaster. The next turn he casts another Burning Wish which I let resolve and he fetches Show and Tell. He casts Show and Tell on the 4th Turn with no Back-up and I Force of Will. :)
Standing: 1-0-0
Round 2 (Maverick)
Game 1
My Opponents starts with a 1 Land Hand and 2 Noble Hierarchs. I proceed to Chain Lightning and Lightning Bolt his Hierarchs while my Goblin Guide deal the beats. I get to see his Top deck and know that he's not getting more land. I then lay down my Grim Lavamancer and he finally top decks his land but it's too late. I force of Will his Thalia at some point when he had 2 mana from the Hierarchs.
Game 2 (In: 2 Thunderous Wrath, 1 Fireblast, 2 Smash to Smithereens, 2 Sulfuric Vortex. Out: 3 Force of Will, 4 Spell Pierce)
I lack my early damage from my one drop due to his 2nd turn Maze of Ith and my Burn spells don't reach his life total until he connects with Jitte and ooze. I hit him with Price of Progress for 6 at one point, have double bolt and just play like a burn deck but I lack 3 damage >< Lesson, Spell Pierce > Sulfuric Vortex. Why fear jitte?
Game 3
I get stuck on 2 Lands this game and miss my 3rd turn land drop but I top deck my 2 Islands later on. At one point during the 2nd turn I had to protect my Red Mana so I wasted my own Brainstorm by Dazing it to keep the Volcanic Island back to my hand. My Fireblast and Sulfuric Vortex laugh at me because by the time I got 2 Red mana, I was facing 1 Dryad Arbor,1 Thalia,1 Noble Hierarch, 1 Qasali Pridemage and Kotr and a Jitte. We should have been a draw this round but both of us failed to hear that time is up and no one said anything. We were the only players left and of course I lost that round. I had a huge amount of burn spells to throw at his face but still lacked the last few points of damage.
Standing: 1-1-0
Round 3 (Burn)
Game 1
I get stuck on 2 lands but a lot of gas from Delvers, Guides and Bolts. I know how to beat a Burn Deck because I used to be burn. Just let most of the 3 Damage spell hit you and Counter those that can hit you for more than 3 damage. He packs some Vexing Devils but they are boltable so I just let them resolve. Eventually he runs out of gas when he casts a lethal Fireblast and I Daze it. By the end of the match I still have a Force of Will in Hand. Lived with 3 Life left lol
Game 2 (In: 1 Flusterstorm, 2 Thunderous Wrath, 1 Fireblast Out: 3 Price of Progress, 1 Force of Will)
Same thing happened this game as I was able to Bolt his Hellspark Elemental twice. It didn't help that I had turn 1 Delver Flip into Goblin Guide and him getting stuck on 2 Lands. After the match he shows me his hand of Flamerifts and Burn but lacks the mana to toss them all to me. Yey for winning a bad match up :)
Standing: 2-1-0
Round 4 (Manaless Dredge)
Game 1
I can't interact with his deck so I try to race with my Delver. Unfortunately, he Dread Returns a Stinkweed Imp and blocks my Delver with 2 Narcomoebas and 1 Stinkweed Imp. I Bolt the Imp but the Narcomoebas still kill my Delver. My counter spells laugh at me being stuck in my hand as he swarms me with Ichorids, Zombie Tokens and 2 Bloodghasts.... OUCH!
Game 2 (In: 4 Surgical Extraction Out: 3 Price of Progress, 1 Force of Will)
I draw an almost perfect hand to beat his Deck with Double Surgical Extractions. He discards his Golgari Grave-troll and I know that if I extract his Dredgers he can have Street Wraith to nullify my Surgical. But I had 2 pcs so I went for it, I was pretty confident in winning and then he Street Wraiths twice. So much for my God Draw being beaten by his anti-God Draw God Draw. ><
Standing: 2-2-0
Round 5 (Countertop Stoneblade)
Game 1
I land some early beats with Goblin Guide and he controls my next creatures. At one point he was on 6 life and like 4 cards in hand and he lays down his Jace. He got to Brainstorm thrice from Jace and stabilizes but doesn't have enough Counters for Price of Progress with mana open for spell pierce.
Game 2 (In: 2 Vortex, 2 Smash, 2 Thunderous, 1 Fireblast, 2 REB Out: 3 Force of Will, 4 Spell Pierce, 2 Daze)
I get some early beats, Kill some Stoneforge Mystics and eventually he taps out for a hardcasted Batterskull. I have the Smash to Smithereens in my Hand and the Batterskull dies. He is on 6 life again when he stabilizes but this time, Counterbalance and Top in play. I don't draw my high cost burn spells and run out of gas. He then proceeds to draw a Vendillion Clique and equips a Jitte. This game I manage to kill a Jace with my Goblin Guide and Grim Lavamancer but problem is he has Terminus on Top lol. Should have just went for the damage rather then the Jace.
Game 3
With 15 Seconds left, we decide to give the win to someone and split prizes. In the end he gives me the win and I promise to give him 2 packs of RTR if I get to top 16. (3 packs prize one is for me 2 is for him)
Standing: 3-2-0
Round 6 (Zoo)
Game 1
My turn 1 Guide meets a turn 1 Kird Ape. I Force of will his Kird Ape to get some tempo and I was thinking he was similar to a burn/sligh build. Turns out on his turn 2 he lays down a 3/4 Tarmogoyf. Another 3/4 Tarmogoyf which becomes a 4/5 and a Lavamancer. My Goblin Guide can't keep up and my Price of Progress doesn't reach lethal.
Game 2
I go to my Fair Deck sideboard of less counters and more burn. I draw my Fireblast in my opening hand once again laughing at me as he Wastelands my Volcanic Island and he plays a Thalia. Turns out he was playing BIG ZOO! Such a bad matchup! Tarmogoyf, Knight of the Reliquary mop me up. I also made a mistake in sideboarding here as I took out my spell pierces. On this game I opened with Turn 1 Delver which gets a Chain Lightning and I can't protect it. I also can't race this deck because he has better board position and creatures, I can't control him either because his Big Creatures are un-boltable. Talk about a bad matchup!
Standing: 3-3-0
Final Record: 3-3-0 Should have been 2-2-2 in reality lol
Thoughts on the deck, I will be putting Grafdigger's Cages instead of Surgical Extractions. Manaless Dredge is scary and well I don't board in much Surgical Extractions for the combo matchups anyway. My singleton Fireblast will now be changed into Flames of the Bloodhand, it's more reliable :) or maybe I can play the 4th Price of Progress.
Also, what can we do against Zoo? sligh zoo is easy because creatures are boltable but the one with Tarmogoyfs and Knight of the Reliquaries seem to be really bad matchups.
Last edited by blindspotxxx; 09-17-2012 at 06:42 AM.
That's why I've played Submerge. ;)
Hey folks,
i have a question again. In my Meta the Maverick Players started to play Gut Shot alot in Sideboard. This Card gives me nightmares. My best Cards vs Maverick aka Grim Lavamancer and Delver of Secrets get killed easily.
One or two month ago i concidered Maverick as my "auto-win" matchup nowadays it feels like the other way round.
Sometimes i get the feeling Mono R Burn has more Power and better overall MU's then UR has.
So my general question is: What role do you play when you are up against the familiar faces like Maverick / RUG / Goblins more the controle part or maximum aggression?
I cant figure out how to win with this deck atm.
I will start to test super agressive lists with Turn 3-5 kills. Ofc i will post results ;).
And then again i also want to test more defensive lists maybe with Standstill and Mishras Factory. Anybody already got test results with Mishra and Standstill ? I would be glad if you could share your opinion with me.
regards Dmnd
Well in those situations submerge wouldn't have helped me either way :) Maybe depends on the meta but Maverick at my place isn't super popular. It's more of the control decks and combo. I was just unlucky lol
I've been thinking the same thing too. I am suddenly lost in this deck lol In those match ups you must be the aggresor. Our early threats dying is a huge problem. That's how I win most of my Maverick, Rug and Goblin matchups. Stick a Delver or a Lavamancer, if they're killed off it's very hard to win. When it reaches the long game we are done for vs Goblin's card draw engine, Rug's Tarmos and Ooze and Maverick's large reliquaries, equipment and life gain.
I approach the "fair decks" matchup (maverick, nic fit, etc.) by transforming to the best burn deck my deck can be
Side out all counterspells and even bring in a couple of surgical extractions, I've beaten a maverick player by getting rid of all his swords to plowshares and also getting rid of his fetchland when I saw him miss his land drop (not that recommended though)
To force or not to force? That is the question.
I agree with the first part of this. You want to be as aggressive as possible because once the maverick players are able to "play" with their knights, you're pretty dead. And I agree with siding out counter spells but there is no way it is right to have surgical in your deck over spell pierces. Surgical says discard a card and pay 2 life, sounds bad right?I approach the "fair decks" matchup (maverick, nic fit, etc.) by transforming to the best burn deck my deck can be
Side out all counterspells and even bring in a couple of surgical extractions, I've beaten a maverick player by getting rid of all his swords to plowshares and also getting rid of his fetchland when I saw him miss his land drop (not that recommended though)
This is an article about what I'm playing in the SCG Atlanta Invitational this weekend. My current take on this deck (the list I'm running) is at the end.
http://roxiecards.com/magic/atlanta-...tional-primer/
Read your articles and primer. What's your strategy against Miracles and how do you board against them? Do you do your best not to let Counterbalance resolve?
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