Return to Ravnica Spoilers

[Lemnear]

They needed more Regrowth effects?

Unless the DCI unresticts merchant scroll, ponder and brainstorm i guess chaining gushes/Ancestral recalls via regrowth effects is the only Way to return as a cOmbo-engine

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

What are your reasons if you don't mind me asking?

The mana effect is unreliable enough to be worrisome, considering that that would be the main reason to run it. And the other two effects are middling, or when they're not they're too slow (not having haste.)

[Oiolosse]

You're right, the Shaman's graveyard hatability won't do much against combo decks because it will take too long to come online. The lack of reliability of it's ramping is also very relevant. But, I think it's great against control and midrange decks utilizing (or just involving) the GY. This says nothing that it's creating a life differential at the same time. I think that's awesome. I can see it alongside Bob and a suite of board control.

Thank you Vacrix for saying everything I was too lazy to type.

[evanmartyr]

Abrupt Decay and Dryad Militant are the only truly reasonable cards that I know will be slotted into existing decks.

I could see Izzet Charm being used, it seems good.

Clearly RIP is an amazing sb card, but at 2 mana it's a cheap lock piece that randomly screws with a lot of decks, and is half the win condition. Kind of like Lodestone Golem + Humility against RUG. If this doesn't see some maindeck play I'll be surprised.

I like Deathrite Shaman, I'm just not sure it's consistent enough to be amazing. At least it can always attack for 1, and is splashable into pretty much any deck that would care to run it.

Cyclonic Rift is clearly reasonable. Dunno if it's better than Repeal, but it may be in some decks that stand a chance at Overloading it.

I disagree with you somewhat IBA; I think the main reason to run Deathrite Shaman would be the graveyard shennanigans, not the mana acceleration.

[Vacrix]

You're right, the Shaman's graveyard hatability won't do much against combo decks because it will take too long to come online. The lack of reliability of it's ramping is also very relevant. But, I think it's great against control and midrange decks utilizing (or just involving) the GY. This says nothing that it's creating a life differential at the same time. I think that's awesome. I can see it alongside Bob and a suite of board control.

Thank you Vacrix for saying everything I was too lazy to type.

Yeah I think that its ability to mana ramp will be negated against decks like Merfolk, Elves, Goblins, DNT, ie. decks that don't play fetches. It means you'll need a hand with a fetchland to use it as a mana ramper. Even so, I'd think that GB would be good against these decks anyway due to Deed and Pulse.

I wouldn't be so sure that its graveyard hating abilities won't be relevant against combo. If you can get off a good Thoughtseize early or a Hymn and stop a combo player from going off you can follow that up with some damage. Then, removing Rites of Flame or stopping Cabal Ritual from reaching Threshold could be relevant while cutting off IGG or PIF can force them into an early Ad Nauseam at a lower life total. Granted this isn't why you want to play the card but I'm sure there will be games where Shaman will give a combo player problems.

Shaman's strength is that there are powerful graveyard focused strategies in Legacy (Loam, Reanimator, Dredge) that this card solve as a maindeck 1 drop.. but also there are graveyard focused cards such as KoTR, Ooze, Goyf, Goose, Snapcaster, Lingering Souls that people don't or can't always side in graveyard hate to deal with. Shaman answers these creatures without diluting deck space while providing utility as a 1/2 answer to early threats like Lackey with the color versatility of Birds of Paradise, and the reach (though not spot removal) of Grim Lavamancer. IMO its the best card out of RotR on par with the viability of Abrupt Decay.

[Lemnear]

I'm pretty sure the obligatory 2 fetches in graveyards during the First 3 turns (experience) are enough to Run Shaman as accelerator during the relevant own turns 2/3/4. After turn 4 i expect this used for it's both reach-abilities only.

Noble hierarch's only long-term use is exalted for other creatures and a horrible topdeck. I feel that here Shaman have advantages too

[Phoenix Ignition]

What are your reasons if you don't mind me asking?

I'm assuming just logic. No mana dork existed in black before, so saying "no black deck wants one" precludes the possibility that it could be effective based on the fact that it currently is not. Perhaps mana dork will make a new deck viable, and perhaps even quite good.

Like saying "No dog could ever act the role of Lord Macbeth" and then finding a dog who can talk and saying "We don't need acting dogs, they aren't any good!" when, in fact, no dog was able to act before the discovery of the new one.

[Hanni]

They key thing about Shaman is its versatility. It doesn't do any of the roles "great," and there are plenty of other cards that do those roles much better. The difference here, is that this can provide multiple different roles, that are all fairly useful.

Mana ramp is best during the first few turns of the game, and I suspect any deck that runs this to also run a healthy amount of fetches to support it. The fact that it can be cast off either black mana or green mana also gives it more ease to cast in a B/g/x deck, vs the other manadorks. If you want to drop first turn Swamp to protect vs Wasteland and setup a turn 2 Hymn, you can still do that.

Secondly, I think the lifegain ability is seriously being overlooked. B/g decks tend to have fairly bad life management, especially in decks that run stuff like Thoughtseize. Burn decks are generally a bad matchup for B/g decks, where the lifegain would be relevant (and most Burn decks run creatures that die after use). It will probably eat a burn spell instead, but that's still helpful.

Then you tack on the additional graveyard hate, which has all sorts of benefits in Legacy. Don't look at this as your primary graveyard hate, but rather as a supplimental tool. It's a nice bonus.

The ability to damage the opponent without the red zone (similar to Grim Lavamancer, minus the targeting of creatures obviously) rounds out the versatility.

Also, this card can easily be ran in a deck with Ooze, no different than running multiple Ooze in the same deck. They compete for the graveyard resource, but Shaman only eats 1 card a turn, and Ooze only grows from exiling creatures.

I see this card being Legacy playable. The question is, what currently viable deck(s) want this guy?

[Offler]

The casual player that's suppressed deep in my super-ego is excited that Firemind's Foresight can retrieve Invoke the Firemind, Epic Experiment, and something useful like Brainstorm.

Time to start brewing Riku of the Two Reflections

thumbs up. Every tutoring card which searches for more than one card is potential win condition... Tooth and nail and similar...

[Malchar]

The casual player that's suppressed deep in my super-ego is excited that Firemind's Foresight can retrieve Invoke the Firemind, Epic Experiment, and something useful like Brainstorm.

Time to start brewing Riku of the Two Reflections

Firemind's Foresight can only search for instants, so you can't get invoke the firemind or epic experiment. Apparently the Firemind didn't have that much foresight after all.

[Annatar]

You forgot Lingering Souls and Garruck also saw play in Maverick

Honestly, I've never seen Garruk Relentless in any Maverik list, or even legacy lists for that matter, what so ever. Lingering Souls, however, is being played in various stoneblade variants, so you could probably chuck it in Thought Scour's slot.

[lordofthepit]

They key thing about Shaman is its versatility. It doesn't do any of the roles "great," and there are plenty of other cards that do those roles much better. The difference here, is that this can provide multiple different roles, that are all fairly useful.

Mana ramp is best during the first few turns of the game, and I suspect any deck that runs this to also run a healthy amount of fetches to support it. The fact that it can be cast off either black mana or green mana also gives it more ease to cast in a B/g/x deck, vs the other manadorks. If you want to drop first turn Swamp to protect vs Wasteland and setup a turn 2 Hymn, you can still do that.

Secondly, I think the lifegain ability is seriously being overlooked. B/g decks tend to have fairly bad life management, especially in decks that run stuff like Thoughtseize. Burn decks are generally a bad matchup for B/g decks, where the lifegain would be relevant (and most Burn decks run creatures that die after use). It will probably eat a burn spell instead, but that's still helpful.

Then you tack on the additional graveyard hate, which has all sorts of benefits in Legacy. Don't look at this as your primary graveyard hate, but rather as a supplimental tool. It's a nice bonus.

The ability to damage the opponent without the red zone (similar to Grim Lavamancer, minus the targeting of creatures obviously) rounds out the versatility.

Also, this card can easily be ran in a deck with Ooze, no different than running multiple Ooze in the same deck. They compete for the graveyard resource, but Shaman only eats 1 card a turn, and Ooze only grows from exiling creatures.

I see this card being Legacy playable. The question is, what currently viable deck(s) want this guy?

Here's what I don't like about the card. It looks versatile on paper since it has three abilities which are pretty cool and serves as graveyard hate to boot.

But in reality, fewer than three abilities will be available to you in the early game, since it's restricted by the card types in the graveyard, and you're constantly munching on it to boot. The card is pretty miserable in the late game, unless your opponent is already at a really low life total, has no way to deal with a creature, but attacking is not an option for some reason. And as graveyard hate, this is as bad as it gets, since you have to wait a turn, invest mana, and are limited to removing one card per turn (and it has to be a creature, land, instant, or sorcery at that), so you're hopefully using this card for the other utility.

Finally, the fact that your opponent can fizzle any of the three abilities (even the "mana ability", since it targets a card) makes it even worse. If you try to hit a card in your opponent's graveyard to disable Snapcaster and to hit for two damage, they can simply flash in Snapcaster in response and use that card. Or tap Relic of Progenitus. Or activate Scavenging Ooze's ability to fizzle whatever you would have done with the Shaman.

This is a borderline card IMO. I don't think you can jam it into most green and black decks, or even something like Rock where it might initially seem suited. I think the best bet is with Combo Elves (which Infinitum suggested), since it's easily found with a GSZ and provides some useful reach with its "black" ability for a deck that sometimes gets stalled out by a Moat or Peacekeeper (or even Worship or Energy Field), in conjunction with Birchlore Rangers to produce black mana as well as Wirewood Symbiote and/or Quirion Ranger to shock the opponent multiple times a turn.

[Vacrix]

Here's what I don't like about the card. It looks versatile on paper since it has three abilities which are pretty cool and serves as graveyard hate to boot.

But in reality, fewer than three abilities will be available to you in the early game, since it's restricted by the card types in the graveyard, and you're constantly munching on it to boot. The card is pretty miserable in the late game, unless your opponent is already at a really low life total, has no way to deal with a creature, but attacking is not an option for some reason. And as graveyard hate, this is as bad as it gets, since you have to wait a turn, invest mana, and are limited to removing one card per turn (and it has to be a creature, land, instant, or sorcery at that), so you're hopefully using this card for the other utility.

Finally, the fact that your opponent can fizzle any of the three abilities (even the "mana ability", since it targets a card) makes it even worse. If you try to hit a card in your opponent's graveyard to disable Snapcaster and to hit for two damage, they can simply flash in Snapcaster in response and use that card. Or tap Relic of Progenitus. Or activate Scavenging Ooze's ability to fizzle whatever you would have done with the Shaman.

This is a borderline card IMO. I don't think you can jam it into most green and black decks, or even something like Rock where it might initially seem suited. I think the best bet is with Combo Elves (which Infinitum suggested), since it's easily found with a GSZ and provides some useful reach with its "black" ability for a deck that sometimes gets stalled out by a Moat or Peacekeeper (or even Worship or Energy Field), in conjunction with Birchlore Rangers to produce black mana as well as Wirewood Symbiote and/or Quirion Ranger to shock the opponent multiple times a turn.

Note that the abilities don't fizzle. They aren't costs because they are behind the colon. So they are just effects. That means you can still do direct damage or gain life if your opponent has an Ooze on the board or something and tries to remove what you remove in response. Granted, against an Ooze you ought to be spending any extra mana removing those creature anyway. Your opponent might have the opportunity to Snapcast something in response to your target but it forces them to do it when its not necessarily ideal, and if they are Snapcasting a Sorcery you can just use Shaman at the end of turn and try to tap them out to avoid Spell Pierces by forcing a Snapcaster when you want to resolve something.

Shaman > Hierarch in the late game most of the time. If we are talking about mana dorks, Shaman is more likely to be relevant in the late game than any of your other manadork options since it has Lavamancer-esque reach. As grave hate, I don't think its bad at all. It comes down early and when it doesn't, its likely you are playing discard anyway to slow them down. Sure it doesn't have haste and you have to spend mana but has Hanni was saying, it compliments Scavenging Ooze nicely as another grave hate option that you can run in the main deck to deal with these cards that aren't really grave centric strategies but still utilize the graveyard to be powerful.

[Lemnear]

Just while the previous Poster mentioned it: Is the remove clause relevant for triggering the Second-sentence-effect? Doesn't seem a requirement or cost by the spelling. I'm confused ... :/

[lordofthepit]

Note that the abilities don't fizzle. They aren't costs because they are behind the colon.

If all targets of an ability are removed, the entire ability fizzles. If it were a cost, then your opponent wouldn't even have a chance to respond to the removal, which would make this card a little better (and make other cards that work similarly absolutely insane).

[Malchar]

The abilities will fizzle if the targeted card is removed in response to the activation because the ability will have lost all of its targets. Also note that the ability which adds mana is not a "mana ability", so you can't activate it during the resolution or announcement of a spell or other ability. Of course, this doesn't really matter because you can always use it before you need it. You probably won't get called out, but you'd have to activate it in response to a daze in order to have the mana. You can't let the daze resolve and then activate it during.

[lavafrogg]

Can someone help me with the math with how often the card will not be able to hit a land on turn 2?

in a deck with 8 fetches and 4 wastelands.... 24% so 25% for all intents and purposes. And we will say you are playing a deck with just fetch lands, best case scenario is fetch lands and wastelands. So the percentages are roughly 50% turn 2 mana acceleration in a optimal situation and 25% against a deck with all basics. Considering the amount of 1cc disruption or 2cc beaters the deck would most likely play the option of eating a land and going to 3 mana will only be needed in certain situations anyways. In addition to the percentages of having lands that do not go to the graveyard is the percentage of games you will not open with a death rite shaman, which will be a high percentage of your games anyways.

Current options GB decks use: mox diamond, veteran explorer, dark ritual.

Even without accelerating you to three mana on turn 2, deathrite shaman provides great utility that can drop on turn one and is not dead in the late game. You have to remember that the life gain and life drain is in addition to every other positive benifit the card has...ie removing cards from the graveyard.

[Humphrey]

Honestly, I've never seen Garruk Relentless in any Maverik list, or even legacy lists for that matter, what so ever. Lingering Souls, however, is being played in various stoneblade variants, so you could probably chuck it in Thought Scour's slot.

check GP Ghent T8 Decklists for example

Garruck and Elspeth are often played in Maverick MD or SB to beat UW Miracles

[menace13]

Firemind's Foresight can only search for instants, so you can't get invoke the firemind or epic experiment. Apparently the Firemind didn't have that much foresight after all.

It is better suited for non-black decks where Merchant Scroll would be also played. Right now I thinks its best applications are in Ruhan, Niv, and Nin to tutor Counterspells, and Removal. Riku doesn't really play a ton of Instants at all, same for Animar, or Maelstrom wanderer.

Def Not Legacy Playable.

[Einherjer]

check GP Ghent T8 Decklists for example

Garruck and Elspeth are often played in Maverick MD or SB to beat UW Miracles

They're not only great vs Miracle, Garruck is hardly beatable for Stoneblade unless you do not have some oppressing board-state already.

Greetings