Pretty much. I haven't done close to enough testing against that deck, but I have to imagine were pretty unfavored in that matchup. Unless they just never draw a swords.Originally Posted by blindspotxxx
Board, +2 Reb, +2 Sulfuric Vortex, -2 Price, not sure what other 2 I'd take out actually. Maybe 1 chain and 1 force? And +2 Smelt if they have stoneforge
If i may ask why take out the Smash to Smithereens for Smelt? :) I've always found Smash to be awesome.
I seriously want to switch to the Lava Spike package, the only thing hindering me is it is easily Counterbalanced :( That's the reason for my Thunderous Wrath, Fireblast sideboard.
Point taken, but with Noble Hierarch in their decks, they can easily play around spell pierce, basically I just don't want to be waiting with counterspells, I want to be the aggressor in the matchup, resolve my threats and have them answer it.
If they used up that first swords, cool then I'll get rid of the rest.
Great article btw.
To force or not to force? That is the question.
Instead of Lava Spike, Rift Bolt is my choice; It cost just 1 red for suspend. Dodge counterbalance with its 3cmc. :-)
@blindspotxxx: The reason I switched over was because I hated losing to spell pierce. Our deck normally has 3 lands in play right? The amount of times I lost to a batterskull because I played smash leaving up 1 mana just to have them spell pierce it was to high. The 3 damage is sweet, I'm not arguing that haha. I just think the benefit of smelt dodging pierce most of the time is worth the change. And you're right about the counterbalance, I don't think my plan against them is very good. I just have to hope my counters stop it :/
@karaxu: Agreed on noble hierarch making spell pierce worse, but I think its still better to have pierce for their jitte, early swords, maybe an Elspeth, green sun, etc. We're not getting any value on the surgical because they never use their yard. Your argument is that they won't draw another swords, and it is awesome if they never draw another one, but that might just happen anyway without you spending a card and 2 life to do so right? And thanks :) glad you liked it.
@Abantau: I thought of that at first but figured that it was worth playing spike because of stifle. I'm pretty sure stifle has disappeared mostly right? Maybe I need to switch to rift bolt, hmmmm. edit**: I think I'm sticking with spike. Not being able to snapcaster rift bolt is probably a big enough reason to not play it :/
Last edited by Andrew.Schneider; 09-20-2012 at 11:23 AM. Reason: snapcaster
Played at our local weekly legacy tournament.. Had my worst record ever! 1-3
Is Death and Taxes suppose to be a really hard matchup? I was gonna win game 2 then he plays a COP: Red.. GG from there..
Misplay on a burn match up. Got greedy on a fetch and he played a miracle Thunderous Wrath..
Went to Game 3 Against Fish who had a crazy Draw from my own Guide and a Standstill..
@Smelt vs Smash to Smithereens
I'm afraid of Chalice for one so I'm sticking with Smash for the moment. :) Andrew I hope you top 8 the next major event again and provide extra knowledge for boarding and matchups :)
Fireblast only works in extremely aggressive/burn heavy shells, where you're not sitting on a Fireblast forever. Fireblast is a finisher and you're not casting it until your opponent drops to 4 (or less) life. In extremely aggressive/burn heavy shells, Fireblast is beyond excellent, often speeding up the goldfish by an entire turn or more. In slower decks like U/R Delver (the versions with Snapcaster and stuff), it's a pretty bad card.
Thunderous Wrath, on the other hand, is fantastic in any remotely aggressive red/blue deck running Brainstorm. 5 dmg for 1 red mana is not only way beyond the average cost to efficiency ratio, it's also alot of damage on just 1 spell. It would take almost 2 Lightning Bolts for the same amount of damage. So in a way, it can provide both card advantage and tempo, which are both really good values for any remotely aggressive red/blue deck.
Who's the pilot Will or Mike? ... Usually we have CoP:Red for game 2&3 because burn and combos are DnTs weak points.
The reason I switched over was because I hated losing to spell pierce. Our deck normally has 3 lands in play right? The amount of times I lost to a batterskull because I played smash leaving up 1 mana just to have them spell pierce it was to high.With Shattering Spree you can avoid both Spell Pierce and Chalice of the Void (and pretty much any counter). Might be a little heavy on red mana, though.I'm afraid of Chalice for one so I'm sticking with Smash for the moment.
How do you all think Nivmagus Elemental could play into this deck? play Nivmagus turn 1, then exile your own spells whenever they get countered or fizzle to make Nivmagus huge. Seems legitimate in theory but what about in practice?
I would try Nivmagus in the place of Guide. It makes them think twice about trump-blocking, and here is a protection heavy build to base it. Tax counters and 0 Guide are welcomed by Wasteland.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nivmagus Elemental
3 Grim Lavamancer
1 Snapcaster Mage
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Thunderous Wrath
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Flusterstorm
4 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Arid Mesa
2 Flooded Strand
4 Volcanic Island
1 Mountain
1 Island
On the Sep 2011 Ban List Updates,
So just won my local tournament yesterday with this list:
4 Goblin Guide
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Price of Progress
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Spell Pierce
3 Force of Will
2 Fireblast
2 Thunderous Wrath
4 Volcanic Island
2 Mountain
2 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 2 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 2 Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 2 Submerge
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
We were 12 players => 4 Rounds.
Round 1: Enchantress
Got two god hands and crushed him in both games. I forced the enchantress in the second game, which really messed up his plans. Chaining rampant growths is not that great a game plan.
SB: -3 PoP + 1 FoW, +2 Sulfuric Vortex.
1W 2:0
Round 2: Dredge
I kept defensive hands in both games and fortunately drew into some beats. I am still not sure whether this was a good idea, but it worked out. In game 1 my counters disrupted him enough so that I could barely kill him and in game 2 my hate bought me enough time to burn him out. Relic sucks though, I think I will play 4 Crypts in the future.
Sideboarding: -3 PoP -1 FoW +2 Crypts +2 Relics
2W 2:0
Round 3: U/W/B Thopter Foundry Control
Those were 3 tough games. I don't remember much, but I got really lucky with my draws, especially Thunderous Wrath was amazing in this match.
Sideboarding -3 PoP -3 FoW +2 Smash To Smitherins +2 Sulfuric Vortex + 2 REB
3W 2:1
Round 4 U/R Painter
This was really painful. He plays Ensnaring Bridge main which costs me the first game, since I do not draw any burn for 5 turns, giving him enough time to kill me. Game 2 and 3 were very close, but my disruption prevented him from going off before I could kill him.
Sideboarding: -3 PoP -1 Chain Lightning -1 Thunderous Wrath +1FoW +2 Smash To Smitherins +2 Sulfuric Vortex
In general, I prefer the more aggressiv build about the controlish one with Snapcasters. Playing the latter feels like playing a bad canadian
Gunseng, you have 7 finisher kind of spells (PoP, Wrath, Fireblast) and 8 bolts. With this configuration are you able to dish out damage continuously?
Well, I deal damage (almost) every turn, with creates and/or burnspells. In topdeck mode, the high amount of burn increases the chance to actually finish the game before you die.
Sunday, week before last, I played almost the same list as Andrew (different fetch configuration).
Different sideboard though. 41 people, 6 rounds. Probably 4-1-1 for top8, maybe one player with 4-2.
R1 can't remeber, won.
R2 won against miracle deck. Sided out Guides because they are awfull against top and brainstorm. Domed him with price of progress for a lot. Second game was won with Vortex.
R3 lost vs The Gate. He is at 2 life for 5 turns, then gets Jitte... Second game I sided in 2 Smash and 2 Vortex, he resolved Bskull, I haven't found either. I couldn't care less about any other cards ih his deck but those two will probably bump Smash numbers to 3 in side.
R4 vs Show + Hypergenesis. I knew he was playing former, but Genesis got me unprepared when I tapped out at the end of his turn. Better scouting next time. Game 2 I had enough Pierce, Daze, Force, REB stuff to beat him. Game 3 I took a hand with Volcanic, REB, 2 Daze, Force, Ponder, Lavamancer. Countered his first three atempts to combo but never drew just one more mana source. I was bottlenecked and lost.
At 2-2 this was probably the end for top8 but prizes goes to first 12 so I kept playing.
R5 won against Burn. This is always hard matchup for me because his deck is focused burn and our Firefly is half offense, half defense. Luckily, he was inexperienced player.
R6 against Thresh. We split first two. Third game was typical going-first-and-having-all-the-Dazes-and/or-Submerges so I won.
Ninth place got me m13 playmat and some foils like Qasali Pridemage, Hero of Bladehold and such.
Finals and duals are split between Burn and Miracles (that I beat match 2, his only loss).
Terminus is a real deal (Pierce and Daze are not enough) and Hgenesis can't be stopped with REB, I hear Entreat and Show are also cool cards so maybe I'll steal Todd's Envelop tech for future. Ravnica is coming and change is on the horizon (I will probably adopt some Charms and Nivmagus Elemental is cool tech against Hive Mind deck, Counterbalances are getting hit with Abrupt Decay and so on).
I wish WOTC would print a very good Red one Drop that can replace the Goblin Guide :) If you've given your opponent like 3 lands from Guide's Drawback the game is going downhill.
just have to hope theyre all the 2 damage kind of lands. (Price of progress of course)
Whatever 1 drop they create that is better than guide I dont want to play against it... Guide is already soooo good...
You really want a better R-Drop than GG?
Of course, stronger cards are welcome, but they have to work inside the current power level.
Still waiting for this: http://www.5colorcontrol.com/comic.php?comic=214
If I was playing pure burn then that would be no problem. But U/R Delver seems to need a lot of creature damage and this decks aims for some sort of tempo advantage and card quality. Supplying opponents free draws is never like a good thingYou really want a better R-Drop than GG?
Of course, stronger cards are welcome, but they have to work inside the current power level.
Still waiting for this: http://www.5colorcontrol.com/comic.php?comic=214
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