Updated the opening post with the videos from Jupiter.
Also, if any of you guys have any new videos or ideas you want to contribute to adjusting the OP, let me know and I'll take care of it!
Some guidelines on how to use Cabal Therapy might be helpful to the newer players. It is one of the things you need to master to be good with the deck and many people are really clueless on what to pick. I have no idea on how something this complex and situational like the use of Cabal Therapy can be put into simple guidelines, but maybe someone has an idea how to make it work :-) Perhaps with an example or two.Originally Posted by Hollywood
Another thing I often see in question is how and when to slow dredge and / or DDD.
We have a lot of theory which cards to use and why, but no manual how to pilot this deck correctly :-)
I think this might help some of the people who intend to pick up Dredge.
"I came into this world covered in someone else's blood and screaming, I'd like to leave it the same way."
Whenever I combo out on turn one, getting ready for a turn 2 kill and getting ready for Cabal Therapy while not knowing my opponent's deck I usually base the card/s I name to what land/s he has in play:
Islands: Brainstorm if they're tapped out, Ponder if they're untapped. Some say you should always name FoW first. Problem with naming FoW is that if they have it, they'd counter your 2nd Therapy anyway and if you have more than 2 in your GY (after a Breakthrough, LED, Looting turn 1 that would almost always happen) you wouldn't care about that FoW much and you still get zombies. I'd rather name their cantrip and prevent them from getting the answer they need, get all the info I need and then base my next Therapies on those info.
Mountains: Differs a lot. If I know they're playing burn I'll name Keldon Marauders or Price of Progress.
Swamp: Hymn to Tourach on the draw if I'm holding draw spells.
Plains: Swords to Plowshares. This is the only card I consistently name on a first Cabal Therapy if I see they're packing Plains.
Forest: GSZ
Fetches: Fetches with white I usually name StP. Fetches with blue I almost always name cantrips. If I'm feeling lucky I'd name Show and Tell. The rest would really depend on how I'm feeling.
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Rest in Peace, please do not kill us :(
What do u guy think of Unmask post-board?
I think it is a solid card that gives us an edge against hate. Not only does it take away threats but it gives us so much information about what our opponent is playing and greatest of all how we should proceed with our gameplan. What is our strongest play against what our opponent is having.
Why we should not play it I guess is because it weakens our chance to find all comboparts. Draw+dredger+discardoutlet+land+unmask+unknownblackcard=6 cards out of 7.
I guess I am answering my own question here but still it is worthy thought.
I can ensure you: If you get to resolve Breakthrough + LED + Looting there is no chance in hell that any opponent with more than one braincell is keeping a Force, just to counter your Therapies ;).Islands: Brainstorm if they're tapped out, Ponder if they're untapped. Some say you should always name FoW first. Problem with naming FoW is that if they have it, they'd counter your 2nd Therapy anyway and if you have more than 2 in your GY (after a Breakthrough, LED, Looting turn 1 that would almost always happen) you wouldn't care about that FoW much and you still get zombies. I'd rather name their cantrip and prevent them from getting the answer they need, get all the info I need and then base my next Therapies on those info.
The best guidline for playing blind Therapies is immo:
Allways name the card that would mess up your gameplan the most, not the card they are likely to have ( allthough those can sometimes be the same).
Some examples:
- do you want to resolve a DR this turn ? aim for a counter
- do you want to DR a creature without shroud against a non-blue opponent ? aim for removal
- do you want to strip their hand via multiple Therapies while they have one blue untapped? aim for Brainstorm
- do you have to pass the turn with a large army of zombies ? aim for mass removal
- does your opponent run stuff ( even as a 1off) that you absolutly don't want to see ( lets say Moat, Humility, Ensnaring Bridge, etc.) ? aim for that
etc. etc.
Our music means nothing, except for what it means to
you.
I had a question about this part from the first post. How would killing one of your own creatures prevent bridge from below from being exiled using firestorm? Won't bridge already be in the graveyard since it was discarded as part of the cost of firestorm? Then killing your opponents creatures would cause it to be exiled right?Take note too of the fact that when you discard a Bridge from Below to Firestorm, it can potentially be exiled if you can't kill any of your own creatures upon resolution. However, sometimes it's a small price to pay if you need to wipe their board in a hurry. The card is a blowout and very hard to play around.
I'm guessing they mean blowing up your bridges without any profit from it. Aka no zombies.
Ofcourse if you have non token creatures you can put the triggers on the stack so you do get tokens.
This is indeed the way to play Cabal Therapy.
This is also probably why inexperienced players misplay their Therapies. The card your opponent has more copies of or is more likely to have, is not the card(s) we are most worried about. I believe new players may think hitting more cards might equal more win because of what we are taught in card advantage 101 sessions when we start playing the game.
Using Cabal Therapy against a player using mountains(but not goblins) for instance: I always name Lightning Bolt, sometimes Fireblast depending on gamestate and deck, because it is the card that hurts us the most. It destroys are Bridges at the opponent's leisure. Cards like Price of Progress don't cause much of a problem for us because we can function on one or two lands when we want to and are able to sac lands when we want as well. Price can't stop our bridges and can be stripped the next turn if need be.
Caleb Durward wrote a good article on this very subject recently. It's on ChannelFireball's site.
It was ment as an addition to the OP. Not for me. I am just not smart enough to teach the art of Cabal Therapy in short words. But I think it would do well in the OP for the Dredge-Newcomers, making this Primers initial post a "Dredge compendium" with alot of information. The article of Durward can be linked for additional more in-depth information though.
"I came into this world covered in someone else's blood and screaming, I'd like to leave it the same way."
Quick question. When I sac an Ichorid to a Cabal Therapy with Bridges in the yard, and then an opponents shoots me with a Mogg Fanatic while the Bridge triggers are on the stack, do I really not get Zombies?
This is correct. If you read Bridge from Below, the triggered ability that makes you zombies specifically states that Bridge has to be in your yard at the time.Quick question. When I sac an Ichorid to a Cabal Therapy with Bridges in the yard, and then an opponents shoots me with a Mogg Fanatic while the Bridge triggers are on the stack, do I really not get Zombies?
Since they are exiling your bridges with their Mogg Fanatic with your Bridge zombie triggers on the stack, your triggers do nothing upon resolution.
Got it! Thanks. Just reread that part... Hmmmm, for the longest time I've been "cheating" on a few opponents then
So, some thoughts on the discussions on this page:
Cabal Therapy -
I'm gonna go with what I was told, "Think really hard about the one card you DON'T want your opponent to have at this exact moment in time. Say that card in your mind a couple of times. Then, while casting Cabal Therapy, say that card out loud." Seems easy enough, until you're facing Maverick and you don't know if they are holding the Green Sun's Zenith or the Scavenging Ooze. I got bit on that one pretty good. I named the Ooze only to have them reveal a Zenith. So, next game I named the Zenith only to have them reveal the Ooze. :facepalm:
Slow Dredging -
This one is the one we REALLY need added to the front page primer!!!! I can't stress this enough! This is the topic I need help with, so I'm guessing others do too. It's not just when, but HOW! You guys who play this deck to top finishes, THIS is what seperates you from those of us who barely play this deck to a 2-2 finish. I beg you to expand on this topic! Please!
DDD -
Yea, this one much like the above topic. But I think it may be more understood than the above topic, so maybe not as critical.
That's my thought from a new Dredge player who shelved it due to not fully understanding how to play this deck through hate. I love the deck, but I just can't pilot it the way I need to right now. And spending 4 rounds getting your teeth kicked in just isn't fun. Once people know you're playing Dredge, the meta game changes as sideboards adapt pretty fast. These topics are what seperates the Dredge players from the guys who own Dredge decks.
Slow dredging is kind of difficult to teach because it is so situational. In order to know when to slow dredge, you need a good understanding of what your deck should be able to do as well as what your opponent's deck can do. You basically need to ration your Bridges and Ichorids while at the same time applying enough pressure on your opponent.
Also, it is not a good idea to play dredge at a small local metagame. When you only have a dozen decks to play against then it is easy to find room for graveyard hate if one or two of those decks may be dredge.
Slow Dredging is entirely dependent on the situation, it is very hard as Joe said to teach takes time before you learn when to slow dredge and when to go nuts
Currently Playing:
Dredge, The Rock, Lands, Spiral Tide, Affinity
Why do people have problems with slowdredging?
Seriously, I don't get it
What do you mean, "how to slowdredge"?
You dredge without acceleration until you reach point x. I thought that comes with the word.
Edit: If you mean when to use which Dredger to reach your goal, that depends on your graveyard and on what you are trying to accomplish. It also requires full knowledge of your Graveyard and the rest of your deck(how many copies of card x are left, how many cards in library, how likely is it to mill card x when using "insert dredger")
This man is a truthspeaker! You deserve a beer - if you see me in Ghent, you may present yourself to me as The Speaker of Truths and I will buy you a beer of choice
During certain situations, especially post board, it is better to draw than to dredge when you have enough tools in your graveyard to already apply some pressure or need to bait the hate (Relic, Crypt). I believe that was what he meant by "slowdredging". I too am having issues with this.Why do people have problems with slowdredging?
Seriously, I don't get it
What do you mean, "how to slowdredge"?
You dredge without acceleration until you reach point x. I thought that comes with the word.
Edit: If you mean when to use which Dredger to reach your goal, that depends on your graveyard and on what you are trying to accomplish. It also requires full knowledge of your Graveyard and the rest of your deck(how many copies of card x are left, how many cards in library, how likely is it to mill card x when using "insert dredger")
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Guys, I have a medium sized tournament coming up (60-80 people) this weekend and my Ashen Ghouls haven't arrived in the mail. I'm playing the Quad Laser list, any substitute I can use for the board?
The 4th Ichorid is worse than the 9th Land MD, just SB 2 Dread Return in place of Ashen Ghoul, Tormod's Crypt isn't a real card anymore.During certain situations, especially post board, it is better to draw than to dredge when you have enough tools in your graveyard to already apply some pressure or need to bait the hate (Relic, Crypt). I believe that was what he meant by "slowdredging". I too am having issues with this.
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Guys, I have a medium sized tournament coming up (60-80 people) this weekend and my Ashen Ghouls haven't arrived in the mail. I'm playing the Quad Laser list, any substitute I can use for the board?
Are you really trying to explain to me what slowdredging means? I know it. I was only wondering how people can not know how to do it, because explanation is the word itself. You dredge slowly.During certain situations, especially post board, it is better to draw than to dredge when you have enough tools in your graveyard to already apply some pressure or need to bait the hate (Relic, Crypt). I believe that was what he meant by "slowdredging". I too am having issues with this.
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Guys, I have a medium sized tournament coming up (60-80 people) this weekend and my Ashen Ghouls haven't arrived in the mail. I'm playing the Quad Laser list, any substitute I can use for the board?
I also tried to give an answer to when to do it bc I feel like that is the only thing one could not know.
Maybe I misunderstood him.
To your second Question: Don't cut an Ichorid main,otherwise do what Mr. Fortune said. Even though he thinks he knows the absolute truth, he actually gives reasonable advise most of the time.
This man is a truthspeaker! You deserve a beer - if you see me in Ghent, you may present yourself to me as The Speaker of Truths and I will buy you a beer of choice
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