So I went 3-1 at Thursday Legacy, which isn't unusual. What was unusual, however, was that I started out the night by beating Lands and Storm, the deck's two worst matchups.
Round 1: Lands
Game 1 was over quickly. I scooped about five minutes in after my opponent got out a Wasteland/Loam/Exploration lock.
Sideboarding: +2 Surgical Extraction, +2 Pithing Needle, +1 Bojuka Bog, +2 Krosan Grip, -3 Maze of Ith, -1 Karakas, -3 All is Dust
Game 2 was also over very quickly. I played Pithing Needle on turn 1, naming Wasteland. I had Ulamog out a few turns later.
Game 3 was interesting. I kept a hand of Forest x2, Surgical Extraction, Top, Crop Rotation x2, Exploration. I used Top to make sure my early land drops were basic Forests (plus a Glimmerpost) while sculpting my hand into Eye of Ugin, Cloudpost x2, Vesuva, Crop Rotation x2, Kozilek. My opponent had Wasteland and Ghost Quarter. I played a Cloudpost, hoping to bait the Wasteland. My opponent hit it with his Wasteland, and I sac'ed it to Crop Rotation in response to get another Cloudpost, then used Surgical Extraction to exile all of his Wastelands. My opponent then hit my new Cloudpost with Ghost Quarter, so I tutored for a Forest and sac'ed it to the second Crop Rotation to get the last Cloudpost. I untapped, played the Cloudpost in my hand and Vesuva copying it, found a Candelabra with Top, then used it to cast Kozilek for the win.
Round 2: Storm
I started Game 1 with a very fast hand - Forest, Exploration, Cloudpost, Vesuva, Top, Candelabra, Ancient Stirrings. My opponent attempted to combo off on turn 3. I got a bit lucky in that he was just short of lethal storm with Tendrils, forcing him to Burning Wish for Empty the Warrens for 18 goblins. I used Top on my upkeep to find Eye of Ugin as my land that turn and set up an Ancient Stirrings for my next draw. My opponent swung for 18, putting me at 2. I cast my first Ancient Stirrings, finding the All Is Dust I needed as the fourth card down, then wiped the board. Kozilek and Emrakul came down shortly after.
Sideboarding: +3 Mindbreak Trap, +2 Surgical Extraction, +2 Powder Keg, -3 Maze of Ith, -1 Karakas, -1 Forest, -1 Crucible, -1 All is Dust
Game 2, I kept an otherwise mediocre hand because it had Mindbreak Trap. My opponent attempted to combo out on turn 3 again, so I exiled everything on the stack. A few leisurely turns later, I had Ulamog blow up one of his two lands.
Round 3: BUG Tempo
Game 1 went pretty solidly in my favor. I had Mazes/Candelabras to deal with his Goyfs and Delvers until I wiped the board with All Is Dust. Kozilek came down; he Stifled the casting trigger, but had no answer to the Butcher himself.
Sideboarding: +2 Powder Keg, +2 Pithing Needle, +1 Boseiju, +1 Bojuka Bog, -3 Exploration, -1 Forest, -1 Karakas, -1 Crucible
Game 2, I snap-kept a very greedy hand and paid for it. Wasteland hit my turn 1 Cloudpost, which made the 2x Vesuvas in my hand much less exciting. I put up a fight for a while, using Powder Keg to kill a pair of flipped Delvers and gaining a reasonable amount of life off of Glimmerposts. Eventually, he got out 2x Goyfs and found Loam, keeping me stuck on 6 mana.
Game 3, I mulled to a strong 6, with Forest, Exploration, Cloudpost x2, Expedition Map x2. I got greedy, however, and played both of my Expedition Maps on turn 2 - which my opponent then hit with Maelstrom Pulse while I was effectively tapped out. I used a Bojuka Bog to shrink his Goyf, which turned out to be very fortunate because he had planned to use his graveyard to cast Tombstalker the following turn. We went back and forth for a while; I wiped the board a few times, he'd play more creatures. Eventually, I got up to a good amount of mana and found the Eye of Ugin, which I activated to find Emrakul when they called time. My opponent had a strong board position, but I wasn't too worried. He didn't appear to have lethal damage, while I would be able to take turns 2, 3, and 5 for the win... and then my opponent Brainstormed Temporal Mastery to the top of his library. I did not get to cast Emrakul.
Round 4: RUG Delver
Game 1 was pretty slow. I had to mull to five, but got a pair of Mazes early to keep his Delvers at bay while I waited to topdeck a tutor or Eldrazi. I topdecked Kozilek, which he countered, but still gave me Ulamog off the casting trigger. He did not have an answer.
Sideboarding: +2 Pithing Needle, +2 Powder Keg, +1 Boseiju, -3 Exploration, -1 Forest, -1 Crucible
Game 2, he had an early Wasteland followed by Surgical Extraction for Cloudpost. I've come back from this vs RUG before, but it did not happen this time.
Game 3, he had a strong start with a Goyf and a pair of Delvers and got me down to dangerously low life. I used Boseiju to make All Is Dust uncounterable and started trying to gain some life with Glimmerposts. I used Boseiju/All Is Dust again after he got a few more creatures out. It was getting late, so my opponent scooped after I had the Eye and tutored for Kozilek.
If anyone's curious, this is the list I've been using:
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Maze of Ith
9 Forest
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
2 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Expedition Map
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Crop Rotation
3 Exploration
4 Explore
3 All Is Dust
Sideboard
4 Krosan Grip
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Powder Keg
2 Pithing Needle
I am never ceased to be amazed about how people think lands is even remotely unfavorable never mind one of the "worst matchups" for the deck. That is honestly such a joke. they lose to bojuka bog, they lose to show and tell, you maindeck needles and they run zero counters.Originally Posted by TheBoozeCube
I would play against lands all day every day 100% of the time if I could. I have a teammate who plays lands and we just don't even test the two decks against each other anymore because he'll win maybe 1 out of 30 matches.
Also no wonder you're surprised about beating Storm. In addition to running the mono green version and only having 3 anti-storm cards in the sideboard, you don't even run tabernacle. /palm
To others reading this report. I love it, folks playing the deck is a great thing, but this is not an optimized list for the meta.
Has anyone tried slipping mindslaver (or 2x) and an academy ruins in a heavy blue build?
Seems low impact, you already have the maps to find academy ruins, and this could be a colorless temporal mastery and/or wincon
The very fact flamethrowers exist means that someone, somewhere said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire.... but I'm just not close enough to do it."
I love mindslaver. really I really really really do. I played control slaver for 4 years without break and I won many many pieces of power with it. But sadly it is only good against matchups you already roflstomp like U/W miracles. You can't tutor it with Ugin, and it is way way too slow against the matchups you want it in. Ultimately, without tinker, I don't see mindslaver in this deck.
If you're looking for a 10 cmc wincon, I'd go with more Kozileks.
I've played against Lands a lot too -- there are three or four people who play this deck in my local meta -- and it's easily my deck's worst matchup.
Pithing Needle on Wasteland is at best a temporary solution. Rishadan Port and Ghost Quarter are just as destructive, and it's laughably easy for Lands to find Engineered Explosives.
Bojuka Bog (or any other one-shot graveyard hate) is also only a temporary solution, since it's unlikely that you'll see more than one Loam in the yard at a time (especially if they know you play Bojuka Bog).
I'll concede that S&T is a solid card against Lands (although Karakas then becomes much better against you too). Personally, I'm not a fan of S&T builds however; I prefer to dedicate more space to ramp cards.
There's actually 7 anti-storm cards. Surgical Extraction hitting a ritual or tutor is decent disruption, especially if you know they put something they need on top with a Brainstorm. And Powder Keg deals with Goblin Tokens.
I don't have a Tabernacle yet, although it's next on my major acquisitions list. I'll probably run it in the main though.
It depends on your local meta and playstyle.
The S&T version of this deck has a weaker matchup against decks like Delver, Maverick, Merfolk, Stoneblade, and such. It has less ramp and a weaker dig/tutor package and instead relies more on S&T, which leaves the deck much more vulnerable to disruption and countermagic. Its early-game defenses against creatures are also less robust (especially pre-board). And because it's U/G, it's more vulnerable to Wasteland and Stifle. S&T makes up for this by being able to play some countermagic and being able to cheat in creatures when it can resolve S&T itself.
My list plays very differently. It's a lot more ramp-oriented, with 7 cards that let you play multiple lands per turn and a full playset of Candelabras. It also runs a stronger tutor/dig package with full playsets of Expedition Map, Crop Rotation, and Ancient Stirrings (with a couple of Tops as well). This makes the deck a lot more resilient to disruption and Wasteland, since you can consistently find what you need quickly and cheaply. It also makes the deck much more resilient to countermagic; soft counters like Spell Pierce and Daze are usually irrelevant by turn 2. It also has stronger early-game defenses in Maze of Ith, especially when paired with Candelabra, and can easily wipe the board with All Is Dust (which it can find with Ancient Stirrings). And with the heavier emphasis on ramp, the deck can consistently generate the mana to hardcast Kozilek or Ulamog on turn 3 or Emrakul on turn 4 (or even a turn earlier with nut draws).
Without S&T or countermagic (other than Mindbreak Trap), my list does indeed have a harder matchup vs Lands and Storm. But it also has been about 80% vs decks like RUG, Maverick, and Merfolk. And I literally have never lost a match to Stoneblade (I think I've lost one or two games to it in the past year that I've been playing this deck). There's a very healthy Legacy scene here--I have the option to play sanctioned Legacy as often as 4 days per week--and I've been doing quite well with this list.
So again, it depends on your local meta and your playstyle.
Strongly disagree on the UG analysis and I chalk this up to you being new to playing the deck and thus not being able to flesh out how to play it optimally. Running Trop doesn't mean you are more vulnerable to wasteland at all, as the same number of wastelands will be in play against mono green, just hitting loci, which you don't want at all. If anything U/G is stronger against wasteland since it offers them the ability to hit your Trops and Crop rotation'ing them out in addition to the deck having more card selection.
U/G Defenses are fine if you run repeal. Maze of Ith isn't mana so either stunts you or forces you to run disadvantage cards like exploration/explore. Mono Green loses even more to stifle than U/G since your ability to respond to tragedy is far lower than U/G.
All the decks you listed as being trouble decks are completely won off of Show & Tell -> Titan. In addition to having all the maneuverability and more that mono green has.
Doing things differently does not mean more effective. The pitfall of being a deck designer is getting over the hump of other people having better ideas than you and clinging to the concept that individuality equals tournament success. I played a mono Green version for several months when the meta called for it. The reasons were logical and made sense. The current meta is too able to hinder mono-green's early game tenuous plays and thus it is a weaker version than U/G.My list plays very differently. It's a lot more ramp-oriented, with 7 cards that let you play multiple lands per turn and a full playset of Candelabras.
...
It also has stronger early-game defenses in Maze of Ith, especially when paired with Candelabra, and can easily wipe the board with All Is Dust (which it can find with Ancient Stirrings).
You even mentioned in your tournament report that you had a good hand, you just got wasted out of the game and were "stuck on 6 mana." U/G never gets stuck unless it is at 1-2 mana, so the potential outs are significantly greater.
Rug, Maverick and Merfolk matchups can all be made very positive just by running a good build of U/G and practice. I agree that Mono Green's faceroll type of strategy is easier for newer players to the deck concept, but ultimately that faceroll linearity limits your high-skill thresholds you will need against good players and good draws.Without S&T or countermagic (other than Mindbreak Trap), my list does indeed have a harder matchup vs Lands and Storm. But it also has been about 80% vs decks like RUG, Maverick, and Merfolk. And I literally have never lost a match to Stoneblade (I think I've lost one or two games to it in the past year that I've been playing this deck).
Since running repeal I have only lost a single match to RuG over 2 major tournaments and 5 minor ones and that loss was due to greed. The deck gave me exactly everything I needed. I simply had to sit back and listen to it.
That's the point I'm trying to get to. U/G is a deck of answers and appropriate responses. I build the deck to allow for an answer to nearly every single contingency in the format solong as the pilot is willing to listen to the statistics. Mono green is strong in its brute force, but it requires significantly more chance, favorable statistics, and potential knowledge to achieve the same results as U/G, thus making it better for earlier players to the archetype, but weaker once a player wants to start playing to the Top 8/16 instead of The Swiss.
Zero hate at all. Play on. Enjoy it. The game is about fun. But as someone who has been on both sides of that court, when you are ready to step up your game I suggest you try out U/G. Probably the best reason to not play U/G is card availability. Show & Tell is disgustingly expensive at the moment and Trops aren't cheap either, but the worst reason if your goal is success is an emotional opinion about cards being unfair or unethical. If you believed that entirely then you wouldn't be interested in discussions about optimizing for tournament play.
Well, Rock, we can agree to disagree. I've also been on both sides. I started out U/G and moved to mono-green because I think it's faster, more consistent, and more resilient.
I have no problem with S&T; I just find it easier to ramp and hardcast my Eldrazi in a meta saturated with Spell Pierce and Karakas.
2/8 at DHG were Turbo-Eldrazi. My teammate piloting the deck missed out on being a 3rd Top 8 spot in the last round. Again the deck is making a great showing.
My pairings were Zoo, U/W Miracles, U/R Delver, Maverick, High Tide (only loss), OmniShow. Top 8 loss was to B/W control, which he admitted was an amazing statistical anomoly. In testing he won 1 in 25 rounds and that's about where my testing lay also.
Can you link a report to this tournament, I'm really interested to create this deck :) Sounds awesome and fun and crushes control. I'd also want to see the decklists of the 2 top 8 turbo eldazzis thanks!
Hey everyone,
I'm new to this forum and I'm also fairly new to Magic.
I made the mistake to build an old standard version of the Eldrazi Ramp (due to a lack of understanding the difference between legacy and standard) and I'm currently trying to upgrade my deck slowly to something more competetive.
The 12-post strategy already helped a lot, but I still have to catch up on a lot of the core cards.
Now if you don't mind I'd like to ask a few questions.
1. Is the Magus of the Candelabra a fair replacement to the Candelabra of Tawnos for the start?
I've already put some money down to get the eldrazi and getting the Candelabras would be a bit too much for a while.
2. After reading though most of this thread I didn't catch what the reason was to take the miracle cards out of the decklist. Some explanaiton would be realy nice.
3. How do you deal with Omni/Tell decks, somehow this and Merfolk are troubleing me the most.
and last but not least
4. Which cards are the core cards and 'first to get' in this deck?
I mean the eldrazi, the 12 post set and I guess the SDT are obvious, but what should I get next?
Just for completion I'll post my decklist here.
Please note that this list originated from a standard deck and is right in an evolutional phase, so it's far from being complete or optimal.
LANDS (29)
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
4 Vesuva
2 Eye of Ugin
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Tectonic Edge
2 Khalni Garden
7 Forest
CREATURES (18)
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Infnite Gyre
4 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
4 Ondu Giant
4 Kozilek's Predator
4 Overgrown Battlement
SPELLS (11)
4 All is Dust
3 Ancient Stirrings
4 Explore
ARTEFACT (2)
2 Expedition Map
I thank everyone in advance that is kind enough to help me out a bit. :)
Edit:
After reading a bit through the (latest?) Tournament Report I noticed something.
Would the following be possible:
T1 Cloudpost, Dryad Arbor
T2 Cloudpost, Painters Servant
T3 Forest, Natural Order into Emrakul?
Sure this wouldn't be too competetive since you can't expect to have Dryad Arbor, a Forest, two other lands and Natural order on your starting hand, but I find it intriguing.
Last edited by Seirei; 09-26-2012 at 10:11 AM.
I didn't write a report and tossed my game notes a yesterday. Sorry -_-. I won't lie, I was somewhat frustrated at losing against quite possibly my best matchup in top 8. I usually only write a report if I get Top 4 or better.
I know this might seem put-off-ish, but your questions will all be answered by reading more than the last 2-3 pages of this thread.
Actually yes it does, I was just hoping someone could elaborate a bit on that, since I'm just not able to see the connections, well sorry for being new and asking for help.
And I already mentioned that I've read most of the thread. I just skipped some off-topic discussions and stuff like that.
I would add Crop Rotation and Glacial Chasm as soon as possible. Both cards are very inexpensive. You could try Magus of the Candelabra, but it's a very fragile creature, and you can't use it the turn you play it, so it may not be worth the slot.
Natural Order can only get green creatures, so you can't get Emrakul with it.
He mentioned Painter's Sevant but I dont think that card fits into this deck in any way.
What's your current build that made top 8? I want to pilot this to a top 8 in our country as well. Cheat Emrakul into play? No I will pay! lol
I wasn't apologizing about it sounding put-offish. I was stating that it would be interpreted as such. The reason I reference people to the previous pages is that all these questions have been answered and more.
If you're breaking into the format with this deck, i.e. you do not have card staples such as Trops, Fetches, possibly Show & Tells, this deck will be expensive. It is one of the most expensive decks in the format right now, if not THE most expensive.
That caveat being said, here is my current list:
// Lands
4 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [U] Tropical Island
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
2 [ZEN] Island (3a)
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
// Creatures
2 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
4 [M11] Primeval Titan
// Spells
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [M10] Pithing Needle
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [GP] Repeal
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
3 [US] Show and Tell
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [VI] Elephant Grass
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 1 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 2 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 1 [LG] Karakas
If you want a list without Candelabras I would suggest running Temporal Mastery in its spot and running Devastation Tide over Repeal. Without knowing more about your meta (Supposedly Europe is super heavy storm combo, I don't know what the Phillipines is) I can't speak much more of tuning the list to your needs.
::EDIT:: Tried a list without Ulamog as posted above and I really dislike the lack of answers he provided. meta-dependent, but I would include him over the 4th Expedition Map.
Last edited by Rock Lee; 09-26-2012 at 05:38 PM.
1. No. Card selection based on expense does not make for a competitive deck.
2. There are different versions of the deck. Mono green does not play miracle cards. They are added or excluded based on preference and meta gaming.
3. Are you playing with a real list when you have these results?
4. Play online or use proxies until you have the physical cards.
Thanks for the link :) Meta here is a lot of blue decks, the non-blue decks are usually budget decks as some people can't afford the cards lol
If I owned Candelabras I would be playing this deck. I was completely baffled at how to play against this deck piloted by Danny Hall at DHG while I was playing Omniscience. It turned out to be a fun 3 games and Danny won it hitting me with Krosan grip then Crop Rotating for Karakas bouncing my Emmy.
Ha, ya it was a fun match up. That was my third time playing vrs onmi show.
Last time I had only one krosan in sb but due to artifacts and enchantments that hate post growing I up'd the count to 2. And it helps alot in the onmi match up.
Onmi is just OP.
karakas used to be enough to hold show n tell decks, but with onmi floating around it needs more hate now.
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