This is awesome! I love all the interest and discussion so far, I've gotten a lot of ideas to refine through testing. I agree, I think Karakas is now worth it because it can deal with Teeg, Thalia and Clique (sort of). This deck has a goal of hitting pretty much exactly five lands, so I don't want to play more, but I think having Seat of the Synod is actually necessary (I've tutored for it with E tutor and won games with it there, and been frustrated when I couldn't tutor for a land).
Here's my current list:
// Lands
8 [UNH] Island
2 [B] Tundra
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [UNH] Plains
1 [MR] Seat of the Synod
1 [LG] Karakas
// Spells
2 [AL] Helm of Obedience
2 [US] Energy Field
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
3 [RTR] Rest in Peace
2 [RTR] Detention Sphere
4 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
4 [COM] Brainstorm
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [US] Back to Basics
1 [PLC] Porphyry Nodes
3 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
1 [RTR] Pithing Needle
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Energy Field
SB: 1 [RTR] Rest in Peace
SB: 2 [RTR] Detention Sphere
SB: 1 [PLC] Porphyry Nodes
SB: 1 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
SB: 1 [TE] Humility
SB: 2 [COM] Flusterstorm
SB: 1 [MI] Cursed Totem
SB: 1 [US] Arcane Laboratory
SB: 1 [ZEN] Luminarch Ascension
Another idea I had was to simply SB into Miracles! So same MD with the sb of:
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
SB: 3 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
SB: 4 [AVR] Terminus
SB: 1 [FNM] Counterspell
SB: 1 [LG] Moat
SB: 2 [AVR] Entreat the Angels
It's surprisingly portable, as the combo is very compact and doesn't require too many pieces of it due to E-tutor.
Nice list, akatsuki, it's very close to what I've been testing. One question: why did you cut the Leylines of Sanctity? They have been pretty good for me in testing, having utility against both discard (which seems pretty bad for us) as well as Ritual combo. I also prefer Humility in the main but I can see moving it to the board depending on your expected field.
Also:
Currently I am playing 1x Jace main as an alternate win condition, to blow up opposing Jaces, and so on. An additional Jace probably wouldn't be the worst, but I can't see ever wanting 3x in the post board. What are you using these 3x Jace for?Originally Posted by akatsuki
Maybe it's just me, but I think this deck should be focusing a little more on the combo, and little less on filler. I'm also seeing a lack of the best anti-aggro tool available to this deck; Ensnaring Bridge.
Leyline of the Void doubles the amount of pieces for half the combo. It also costs no mana if its in the opener, reducing the cost of the combo significantly. At 4cc, it dodges Abrupt Decay, and it cannot be discarded by Cabal Therapy or countered by Force of Will (since it comes into play before the game starts). Enlightened Tutors can then be focused on finding Helm of Obedience, or whatever toolbox target is needed. I'd also be running 4 RIP and 4 Helm.
Crystal Vein seems like a pretty good land to run. Unlike City of Traitors, you don't need to sacrifice it until you actually need the extra colorless mana. Traitors isn't benefiting you when your casting the majority of your spells anyway, since only a few require more than single colorless.
Chrome Mox or Mox Diamond could also be really good. This combo is pretty expensive, compared to the other alternatives in the format. With multiple Counterbalances, RIP's, Energy Fields, Leylines, etc being redundant, Chrome seems like a good choice. On the other hand, Diamond provides all colors, which is great for mana fixing. The card disadvantage point seems moot; you're already running Enlightened Tutor, and Ensnaring Bridge actually benefits from it. If going the Diamond path, a singleton Crucible could be good.
With 4 E Tutor, the deck should only need 1 Detention Sphere to tutor for, to deal with whatever is causing a problem for your combo (like Teeg or Needle). This deck is better off using spells like Ensnaring Bridge to stop aggro from attacking; slow spot removal and mass removal just seems kinda silly, when Miracles is just alot better at that gameplan. This deck only needs to shut down aggro long enough to assemble the combo and win.
Just my 2 cents.
EDIT:
tldr: why dilute the deck to try and play a better control game, rather than making the combo more consistent and resilient? Miracles is better at the control game... so why not just win, instead of durdling around?
I don't know if I'd call the non-lock pieces "filler"--this is definitely a control deck with a combo finish. Frankly I would not want to be including 4x uncastable black enchantments in a UW shell that already has a slightly low blue count at ~20 cards. I personally would rather not reduce the amount of control elements in a deck that is going to be inherently slow no matter what. Ultimately you have to win on the back of a 4-mana artifact, a Jace, or a Luminarch Ascension--so I'd rather have a sturdy control shell to support this win than increase my number of lock pieces which don't win the game per se.
What you're describing simply sounds like a different, more combo-oriented deck--but I really think that Helm of Obedience lends itself more to a slower control angle than a faster combo approach.
Last edited by lochlan; 12-02-2012 at 05:27 AM.
I've tried the all-in combo version, and I don't feel like it packs significant enough disruption to make it a better choice than other combo decks like Show and Tell. You can feel free to keep experimenting though. :)
The 3 Jace are for siding into a deck with more win-conditions basically. (Surgical Extraction decks, decks with a limited number of creatures that Jace just shuts down). The 3 Jace have been great, I would definitely keep them in.
I didn't test Leyline of Sanctity that much, I just felt like discard wasn't THAT terrible for us since our combo consists of permanents, which can just be played. Plus we have E-tutor. I guess I just felt as though I ran out of room, but perhaps it can be justified. The other issue I have is that it costs 4, and does very little if it's not in your opening hand. But to ensure it's in the opening hand, you need to play more copies, which is hard to fit in the sb for something that doesn't necessarily help that much.
This list looks incredibly solid. ReinVos was describing the problem of CB decks as dealing with too many threats, but Energy Field quite nicely deals with a losing board position. My suggestion, though, would be to go -1 Porphyr Nodes and +1 Energy Field, since Field is a significantly better vs. a losing board position than Nodes. Plus, if you have 2 Energy Fields in hand, then they have to deal with one,
then somehow deal with the second! (Plus that can free up a SB slot.)
I think the 2nd Detention Sphere should be cut, perhaps for a Threads of Disloyalty, Story Circle, Humility or possibly even Land Tax. Though I understand wanting enough 3cc's for CB.
I do think that the 2nd Detention Sphere and the Porphyr Nodes are the only weak cards in the deck, the rest is like a work of art as it all has so much synergy so well together. I'd also recommend a SB Nevermore.
I'm thinking that having the choice between Energy Field and Web of Inertia seems like a highly interesting option, allowing you to make a metagame choice. Web also allows for immense synergy with RiP.
Also suspecting that manabases are going to have a base of:
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Blue or White Fetchland
3 Plains
2 Island
With 7-9 slots left over for mana.
I'm also highly interested in what ETutor packages people are looking at using. I think that the Essential Tutor targets are (beyond the combo):
1 Pithing Needle
1 Detention Sphere
2 Web of Inertia/Energy Field
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Humility
There's definitely a strong deck here. I'm just not sure if it's right for the current time.
Leyline of the Void, aside from being uncasyable, does not have synergy with Energy Field. To me, thats the deal breaker.
Im inclined to run Back to basics and drop a few Tundra for more basics. It boosts the 3 cmc slot and gives more disruption, plus its Amazing.
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Leyline could be good in the SB... It's more hate and it's a relevant combo piece
Why is Back to Basics Amazing in this deck?
Because
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Find me on MTGO as Koby or rukcus -- @MTGKoby on Twitter
* Maverick is dead. Long live Maverick!
My Legacy stream
My MTG Blog - Work in progress
Leyline of the Void, aside from being uncasyable, does not have synergy with Energy Field. To me, thats the deal breaker.I'm thinking that having the choice between Energy Field and Web of Inertia seems like a highly interesting option, allowing you to make a metagame choice. Web also allows for immense synergy with RiP.Chrome Mox or Mox Diamond could also be really good.EDIT: I'm not sure what the fascination with Energy Field is. The only matchups where I can see it being better than either Web of Inertia or Ensnaring Bridge (which I'm not even sure why you'd need Web with Bridge), would be against Burn and Tendrils Storm. You already have Counterbalance.I'm also seeing a lack of the best anti-aggro tool available to this deck; Ensnaring Bridge.
I realize how fun the synergy with Field and RIP is, but... is it maybe just a danger of cool things? Field itself is pretty awful without RIP.
EDIT 2:What you're describing simply sounds like a different, more combo-oriented deck--but I really think that Helm of Obedience lends itself more to a slower control angle than a faster combo approach.I've tried the all-in combo version, and I don't feel like it packs significant enough disruption to make it a better choice than other combo decks like Show and Tell. You can feel free to keep experimenting though. :)I realize that this combo is slower than Show and Tell. I also realize that the control is worse than Miracles. There is nothing wrong with a combo/control approach, but you need to find the right balance of combo and control to make the deck successful. If you go too much into the combo route, you become worse than Show and Tell. If you go too much into the control route, you become worse than Miracles.tldr: why dilute the deck to try and play a better control game, rather than making the combo more consistent and resilient? Miracles is better at the control game... so why not just win, instead of durdling around?
Counterbalance, Swords to Plowshares, Ensnaring Bridge, and Detention Sphere are something that Show and Tell is not running. At the same time, Leyline/RIP + Helm + accel is a much faster "win" compared to Miracles using Jace and Entreat.
Energy Field is leagues better than Web of Inertia. Web is only better if you have a RiP out and it gets destroyed.
Assuming you do not have RiP out, then most decks play a bunch of fetchlands plus instants/sorcerories, etc. so they have no prob exiling one card from their GY. However, Field has an immediate effect on the battlefield. To stop it, they'll have to Waste a land or destroy an artifact/enchant of yours. Assuming you do have RiP out, then Field is simply better due to costing 2 instead of 3 (which is very relevant in a mana-intensive deck).
Let's face it: Energy Field does a much better job holding down the fort than Web does. Imagine facing hands like:
UR Delver - T1 Fetch, Goblin Guide. T2, land, Goblin Guide & bolt.
Mav - T1 Fetch, Mother of Runes. T2, Savannah, Thalia.
Canadian - T1 Fetch, Delver. T2, land, Goyf.
Goblins - T1 Cavern of Souls, Goblin Lackey. T2, MWM.
The point is, these decks:
(a) apply fast pressure, making Web, 3 mana enchantment that gives them an easy option to escape, pretty easy to fight around. Sure, a lot of decks won't exactly enjoy getting rid of a card, but they'd rather do that than lose the option altogether as Field would.
(b) they have mana denial! Stifle, Thalia, Port! These make the 3-mana enchantment less feasible as an effort to stabilize.
When you don't have RiP, Field is simply better. It's not the best card in the world, but it's usually a multi-turn Fog as they struggle to find a way around it.
Don't think anyone suggested PtE in place of StP, only in addition. Definitely a good SB option against aggressive / tempo decks, imo.
I have to agree there. Testing the deck out I never found myself in a situation where I wanted to tutor energy field, much less web of inertia. If you have RiP on the board and enough mana, why not just win? If you don't have RiP then you probably don't want to waste a tutor on that when there are much more impacting cards you can get (the aforementionned RiP, top or CB if you have the other piece, humility / bridge, ...).
I don't think going full-combo is the right approach for this deck. As I said I see it as CB-thopter with an improved win-con.
I don't agree with Web either, I was only pointing out that it also works with Leyline of the Void.Energy Field is leagues better than Web of Inertia. Web is only better if you have a RiP out and it gets destroyed.
Aside from lacking Awesome (this card can pitch to Force of Will), I think Bridge is straight up better than Web and Field. Field is better in some niche cases, such as against Burn decks or Tendrils Storm, but this deck has Counterbalance already. On the other hand, Field requires another card to not suck, where Bridge stops aggro by itself.
When I say 'not suck,' I realize that it can stall the game if your not casting spells like E Tutor, Brainstorm, Force of Will, Spell Pierce, cracking fetchlands, and you aren't being hit by Wasteland or discard. However, doing so limits you from advancing your own gameplan in many ways, and is susceptible to other various strategies. Why go through all those hoops when you don't have RIP on the board, when you can just drop a Bridge instead?
The difference between 2 mana and 3 mana is valid, but I also suggested running more accelerants like Moxes, Crystal Vein, and so forth. A 2/2 split on RIP/Helm makes assembling that combo a battle in and of itself, and I don't think Thalia alone is worth running a much worse card than Ensnaring Bridge when you have Swords to Plowshares and Force of Will already.
That's how I see it too, except Thopters required several turns of Thopter/Sword to generate the inevitability to win, whereas RIP/Helm just wins on the spot. That means this deck should be alot faster at winning if it is able to accelerate its mana sufficiently, and therefore doesn't need quite as much control elements to secure a win.I don't think going full-combo is the right approach for this deck. As I said I see it as CB-thopter with an improved win-con.
Again, finding that proper balance is going to be key. Going forward, if this deck is to become a competitive tier deck, it's going to need to find the proper mix. There is an optimal configuration to be had here, it's just going to take alot of trial and error to find it.
EDIT: As some additional content, Painter/Grindstone also becomes an interesting alternate win con (maybe postboard). Leyline/RIP help avoid a major problem with that combo (Emrakul), Painter can allow the deck to pitch excess crap to FoW (like Leyline), and that combo dodges some problems Helm may face (like GSZ and Thalia). It's an interesting idea, although I'm not sure if it would be worth it or not.
I do believe Energy Field could play a crucial role in this deck. It ups the cmc 2 count in this deck, is tutorable and solves a strategic problem CB decks usually have. It doesn't solve the board, but it does solve the most important part of the problem, which is dying. Supreme Verdict, as awesome as I think this card is, should be in the side and should probably be played over Path there. Two seems like the best number.
When I said Oblivion Ring earlier, I meant Detention Sphere. Forgot about that one for a second. I like one Sphere in the main.
I agree with Back to Basics too. It's another three and works together well with the rest of the deck. Partly because of Energy Field we're playing many basics, which in turn is excellent for Back to Basics.
Although I think Porphyry Nodes is pretty good, I don't think it's better than the fourth Swords to Plowshares. It's a bad tutor target because it takes forever before it eats a guy. At that point you might as well tutor for Detention Sphere if you desperately need to kill something, because you're probably dead if you have to wait for Nodes to kill more than one creature. So the fourth Swords just seems better and if you really want a fifth Swords, but don't want to give them a land, then Porphyry Nodes does seem like the go to card.
Although I can see why Pithing Needle main is totally fine, and I'm not against it or anything, but I personally don't like it main, because it's too reactive and restrictive for my taste. Maybe that doesn't seem to make any sense because you can name any card but that's how I feel about Needle.
I agree with Greenpoe that akatsuki's list is nearly perfect. I'd make the following changes:
-1 Detention Sphere
-1 Pithing Needle
-1 Porphyry Nodes
+1 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Jace
More fours for Counterbalance instead of even more ones, although we would now lose a three. The two threes in there are both tutorable though. Jace is your second wincondition when your opponent is needling down your helm. This gives the deck a huge boost in the resiliency department. There needs to be additional removal in the board if you're leaning towards plan B. because of match-ups or something but it's much better to bring in extra removal instead of extra removal AND jaces. That's taking out a lot of cards and it takes up a lot of space in the board. I think it's best to move the Jaces (well, two of them and leave one in the board) to the main, and then have additional board control elements in the board to support Jace.
Maybe something to get around Abrupt Decay. What about Meddling Mages in the board? Naming a removal spell with Meddling Mage protecting himself sounds pretty good. Because we're going to have a hard time dealing with that card. Having Jace in the main is a step in the right direction, but I fear we need an answer from the board for this card, which is going to revive all kinds of BUG decks, even Eva Green maybe.
Mage also doubles as powerful combo hate, so you don't need 4 Detention Spheres in your 75.
EDIT. Hanni does raise a good point about Ensnaring Bridge being better than Energy Field in many instances. Maybe both should be in there. Bridge as the third three and then 1 Field and 1 Bridge instead of 2 Fields. The flexibility of Enlightened Tutor allows us to play both, which is almost always better than two of each at that point...
Started testing the deck on cockatrice. First game against Elves:
http://i.imgur.com/O4uK1.png
Awesome deck.
He comboes me out on turn 3, after losing his only Viridian Zealot trying to kill my Counterbalance... He tutors Gadock Teeg with GSZ (for my Terminus?) and proudly says go...
I untap, play land, Rest In Peace, Energy Field.
Opponent: "GG".
Player has left.
how did the Viridian Zealot fizzle?
anyway: no one still considered an EOT Abrupt Decay on RiP.
That kills both RiP and Energy Field. Seems like a major loss for cmc2, uncounterable, instant that will just become more and more popular in next meta.
imho we should pack some protection in case we see black (green is safe). Again, Sterling Grove and Greater Auramancy 1x..?
something better?
I cast CounterBalance with one white mana up. He tries a 1 cmc elf, I blind reveal a 1 cmc card. He plays Viridian Zealot, I respond with E tutor for Energy Field, which counters his zealot (his only maindeck answer to artifacts / enchantments). He then proceeds to combo out and play a ton of 1 cmc elves (thanks to the countered Glimpse of Nature he recurred with Eternal Witness on the previous turn). I untap and play RiP + Energy Field. GG.
Misdirection and Divert are possible answers for Abrupt Decay. I'm testing them in my UWR aggro deck, and I really like them. Bolt my Nivmagus / Delver? I divert it to your Delver. It can also help in counter wars (change the target of a counterspell to your Misdirection). I even had a game where I misdirected a Hymn To Tourach :)
It might be less interesting in UW Sanctuary though, because opponent might not have a target you can misdirect too (e.g. opponent plays disenchant with no Artifact / Enchantment on board).
imho the shroud route takes less slot than the Misdirection/Divert one. More solidly, too
Misdirection their disenchant effect onto a Top, then tap Top always works if they don't have a target.
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