The Long Term future of this format...

[lordofthepit]

I'm really hoping for Legacy to die off sooner than later. I'm just sick of Force of Will, Show and Tell, Counterbalance, [add obnoxious card here]...

I also hate that feeling: "man the deck that won today's SCG is so cool, let me see what cards I need to buy to build it! oh need to buy just $1000 in cards? guess I'll just play my old deck...".

I'm not even saying Modern solves that completely, but Legacy's card price is just absurd and there's basically no hope of fixing that... EVER! At least on Modern we have the hope of staples being reprinted...

I'm selling out my stuff and playing budget Legacy decks while collecting some Modern staples.

No sarcasm intended: you sound like the type of person that might enjoy Modern more.

[Tormod]

I'm really hoping for Legacy to die off sooner than later. I'm just sick of Force of Will, Show and Tell, Counterbalance, [add obnoxious card here]...

I also hate that feeling: "man the deck that won today's SCG is so cool, let me see what cards I need to buy to build it! oh need to buy just $1000 in cards? guess I'll just play my old deck...".

I'm not even saying Modern solves that completely, but Legacy's card price is just absurd and there's basically no hope of fixing that... EVER! At least on Modern we have the hope of staples being reprinted...

I'm selling out my stuff and playing budget Legacy decks while collecting some Modern staples.

That's some fucked up thought process you have there. That's like having the hots for a beautiful desirable woman. But hoping she get murdered or dies because you can't have her.

[alderon666]

That's some fucked up thought process you have there. That's like having the hots for a beautiful desirable woman. But hoping she get murdered or dies because you can't have her.

In my city there are lots of Legacy players. People just like the eternal format thing.
I don't like Legacy anymore, tired of the same old cards and the price is just stupid.
If Legacy dies off people are going to move on to the next closest eternal format. Modern.
Therefore, if Legacy dies off Modern will become more played in my city.

I see nothing wrong with that...

[metamet]

(speculative dual land reprint comment ahead)

Second, if they're worried about Legacy eating into Standard...well, they shouldn't be. The can control the format's size through both quantity of reprints as well as amount of tournaments. They don't need to makes U-Seas five bucks a pop, but they do so much just by reprinting them and ending the rampant speculation based on "Duals will always go up because they'll never be reprinted!". Just do enough to stabilize the format a bit and sock it to the goddamn speculators.

What if they decided the fixed price of duals -- say $30 a pop -- and sold them as singles. Perhaps the price of the old duals would eventually lower to reach that number, but they wouldn't go below. Wouldn't this fix the availability/shortage while retaining the value of the card itself to some degree?

[mini1337s]

The best solution to reprinting without "reprinting" the duals, plan I've seen was to distribute new art product through a new Zendikar Hidden Treasures promo. Reprint the cards with new art, textless, whatever, and slam one in each box.
Wizard's sell out of whatever set they did that in within a month. Sure, they have a huge price inflation initially, but when another 50k (well, maybe that's a bit ambitious) of each dual gets out into the market, the price will lower all the revised ones.
It also gives standard/modern fanboys an opportunity to get into the format while playing a shitty one.

Or, Judge Promo Duals. FTV $500. Dual colored Commander decks with a single dual.

[Octopusman]

The only trend I've noticed is the playerbase believing that newly printed cards are good. Whether they are or they aren't (no denying that they are good), there are new decks which utilize new cards and perform well. Perhaps they allow preexisting archetypes to behave in a way we haven't been used to and the format is caught off guard.

I believe that if people weren't busy netdecking, they could be brewing with cards that aren't so new and still perform well. Don't forget, every once in a while an old deck comes back and smashes face. Or something totally unusual pops up - invisible stalker/unstable mutation.

Edit: I'd like the format to change at the same rate that vintage changes but the power level of the cards they're printing makes it pretty clear there will be legacy viable staples available for the forseeable future.
I wouldn't completely write off lands that are better than ABUR duals... make them rares in commander precons or some bs.

[xfxf]

Legacy does a lot more for Magic than they realize. It's a great way to keep people interested in Magic, keep their attention, and drive spending on Magic-related activities as opposed to other hobbies.

Agree completely. Legacy to me, is the only thing making MtG more than a kid's game and a justifiable hobby at my current age. When I play a Legacy tournament I know that the average age of the people I'll be socializing with will be 20ish. Playing formats like Standard, Modern and Limited will sit me across a lot of teenagers to play card games. That's not something I can pursue as a hobby with the same level of involvement. I think having Legacy as a valid and vivid format extends the age range of the game's player base. Without it a lot of the older players could potentially quit the game or reduce their involvement with the game to EDH/Vintage with their close play group.

In the long run this would effectively reduce Magic's player base. I'm not sure if Wizards is aware of this or if the figures are enough to let them make such a sacrifice.

[Jenni]

Playing formats like Standard, Modern and Limited will sit me across a lot of teenagers to play card games. That's not something I can pursue as a hobby with the same level of involvement.

xD I know the feeling, playing standard at a local FNM back during zendikar-scars pre-bannings era, there were a few kids under 14 playing every week, they were easy wins, but it's a bit discouraging being across the table form someone who hasn't hit puberty yet!

[Humphrey]

If Legacy dies, only a handful of player will be switching to modern. Most players will stop playing Magic, including myself.

[Kich867]

xD I know the feeling, playing standard at a local FNM back during zendikar-scars pre-bannings era, there were a few kids under 14 playing every week, they were easy wins, but it's a bit discouraging being across the table form someone who hasn't hit puberty yet!

I don't really see how age has any impact on the game. Generally speaking if younger players are genuinely interested in it, and take an interest in it, they'll exceed their older peers much more rapidly--especially if they're constantly practicing with people who know their shit.

Kids learn very, very quickly. If you can bring up a 12 year old to your understanding of the game, by the time they're 14, 15, they'll be insanely good.

I mean for sure, there's a lot of younger children who just play it because of some reason or another, but I've met enough 13 year olds who know what the hell they're doing to not really make assumptions of anyone sitting across the table from me.

[xfxf]

The age is relevant because when you are not playing Magic professionally you actually care about the experience. A young kid may be a very good player but Magic is more than just the rounds and the level of play, it's a very social game. When you go to a 4+ round tournament you are spending hours socializing with a bunch of people. If majority of these people are at least 10 years younger than you it's not the same social experience. I really don't think I need to elaborate on this more, it should be self explanatory. I don't intend to sound like an elitist, it's just plain facts. Different formats have different demographics and Legacy is certainly appealing to an older player base.

Maybe 10 years down the road Modern will be old enough to appeal to that old player base because those guys will be playing with their shock duals for 10-15 years. Until Modern gets old enough, I suppose Legacy will be around but my estimation is that in 5-6 years Modern will be much bigger than Legacy and Wizards will make sure to do nothing to support Legacy so that the natural transition can run its course.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Legacy is not going to die, lets get serious now. Plenty of people still enjoy the format and that is not going to change.

[Lord Seth]

You have to read between the lines and deduce it by looking at the situation. There's no way Wizards could lose in a court of law if they abolished the list. All the large retailers are anti-List, and there's no way a class action suit of "M-M--MY INVESTMENT IN CHILDREN'S CARD GAMES" would not get laughed out of court.

Well of course it would get laughed out of court if they presented it in the strawman version you did. It's not like people haven't won lawsuits over stupid reasons.

Though a friend did tell me a while ago that it would be an issue in some other countries where Magic is sold. I really am going to have to ask them for more details next time I see them to see if they were correct or if they were just making stuff up...

They're remaining mum on the issue because it would be terrible PR to say "Oh hey Legacy players, we see your format as a threat to our bottom line because people won't pay in to play shitty Standard where Equip Hexproof Dude and Swing is SOOO GOOD when they can just pay into Legacy once". That's why they spin the bullshit of "We can't tell you; it's a mystery!".

This seems to be rather baseless speculation. Indeed, even if this was the reason, I see no reason they couldn't continue to spin the whole "we don't want to break a promise, might get some players annoyed, etc."

I'm not going to say you're necessarily wrong. With no explanation, we can only speculate, and your idea is possible. However, I do take issue with people claiming that this is definitively the reason when that claim is based more on speculation and conjecture than anything else.

I will say one thing, though. One thing I've learned over the last few years is that a corporation making a decision that looks stupid or baffling to other people can actually make a lot of sense if you know all the details they do.

[sdematt]

I'd actually be interested in doing a poll to see:

1) What's the median age of Legacy players?

2) Median time spent playing Magic and/or Legacy?

and then to compare these results to Modern players.

-Matt

[aahz]

Steve Menendian did that sort of thing a year or two back for Legacy and Vintage. His data suggested exactly the pattern you'd expect: the average age of Vintage players was a bit higher than Legacy players, which was itself higher than for Standard, etc.

The time spent question would be an interesting addition.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Brother, I have tried to get into Modern, but it's a deeply flawed format that doesn't offer much. It would need a lot of work to be good, is being completely mismanaged, and it edged out a format that seemed a lot better (Gavin Verhey's Overextended). Not a lot to like there.

Sister, without explaining any of this you just sound like you're trying to be contrary for the sake of it. Deeply flawed how? Mismanaged how (I don't see this at all...)? Actual discussion is useful, when using points formed upon logic and/or facts. Saying things like "Modern is shit" (not that you did, but someone above did) is just a terribly immature foot-stomping temper tantrum throwing way of having a discussion.

In my city there are lots of Legacy players. People just like the eternal format thing.
I don't like Legacy anymore, tired of the same old cards and the price is just stupid.
If Legacy dies off people are going to move on to the next closest eternal format. Modern.
Therefore, if Legacy dies off Modern will become more played in my city.

I see nothing wrong with that...

You're being just as obnoxious and childish as the people who hate Modern.

Seriously, why is everyone clinging to the "us vs. them" mentality? Is this how everyone wants to act about everything? Isn't it enough (for us Americans) that our political system has gone to shit due to this same attitude?

I have a strong feeling it's just the exclusively Legacy players feeling threatened about a new eternal format, but this shit's just crazy. Stop feeling so threatened, legacy will exist for as long as people like us want to play it. SCGs are going strong, even if WotC wants to throw some more support to the Modern format, it doesn't mean that your favorite format is going to die.

EDIT: I'll just end with this: The way to attract people to the things you like and to get them excited about it is to be relentlessly positive about it. You don't put down things that other people like because "yours is better", you don't try to take other things away. Be relentlessly positive about how awesome Legacy is and the format will be healthy. There's a reason the general opinion of Legacy players is that they're huge elitist assholes. Change that.

[Kich867]

EDIT: I'll just end with this: The way to attract people to the things you like and to get them excited about it is to be relentlessly positive about it. You don't put down things that other people like because "yours is better", you don't try to take other things away. Be relentlessly positive about how awesome Legacy is and the format will be healthy. There's a reason the general opinion of Legacy players is that they're huge elitist assholes. Change that.

That's actually interesting, I've always felt that way about Standard players for the most part. Competitive standard players always come off very douchey to me, I've had more people get up, say something directly negative at me, then walk out of the store after losing to some random jank shit I put together to play standard (Jund Postmortem Lunge deck, guy calls me a newb after I resurrect a Kessig Cagebreakers with haste for waaaaaay more than lethal.

I mean that may be the perception of Legacy players because we play all these fancy decks, but the reality of it, I feel, is that most legacy players understand the investment you put into your deck, and if it's a deck you play often, they know how much it means to you.

Maybe it was just my local gamestore, but there was literally 1 douchey legacy player, and he stopped playing legacy to exclusively play standard. Where he is still a douche.

I get the feeling that's just unfortunate circumstances in my store however, where all the douchebags play standard. Not everyone playing standard is a douchebag, but douchebags are a subset of standard players.

I agree though, being relentlessly positive about legacy is how I got any of my friends who play it into it, and I got into it from a friend who was relentlessly positive about it as well.

[baghdadbob]

If Legacy dies, only a handful of player will be switching to modern. Most players will stop playing Magic, including myself.

+1

I have spent faaaaaaaar too much money to have what I have now.

[lordofthepit]

I don't agree with the conspiracy theories that Wizards is trying to kill Legacy. Even though we may not necessarily spend as much money as competitive Standard or Limited players on new products, we play a very important role in the secondary market. Imagine a world without Legacy (and for the sake of argument, Vintage and Modern as well, regardless of however large the player bases are), where your Jaces, Titans, Snapcasters, and fetchlands can no longer be used after they rotated out of Standard. Your Wastelands no longer see any play, nor do Force of Wills, so they're worth only a couple of dollars at most. Thus, as soon as your cards rotate out of Standard, they will plummet dramatically in price. Would people still be willing to pony up $30 on a Snapcaster, $50 on a Titan, and $100 on a Jace? Probably not. Would people still be as willing to draft when the cards you pull aren't worth nearly as much? Likewise, the demand to pull these cards would be dramatically suppressed. There would be no confidence in the secondary market, and Wizards would have a lot more trouble selling packs.

They may want to promote Modern as the "semi-Eternal" format of choice for GPs. That certainly makes sense for a lot of reasons (mostly pertaining to the reserved list), but Modern will never have the grass-roots support that Legacy or even EDH do. However, besides promoting Standard as their flagship format, they would probably support Modern in addition to Legacy, not to the exclusion of Legacy. Wizards probably understands that if Legacy weren't a format, 10% of us would play Vintage, 10% would play Standard, 5% would play Modern, and 5% would play Extended (some may play all four). Many of us would either quit or just play Cube or EDH, which makes them far less money, while destabilizing the confidence in the secondary market.

Similarly, I doubt Star City Games is looking to get rid of Legacy. They invested a lot of money in helping to make Legacy a popular format (the prize support for Legacy Opens has generally exceeded the cost of entry, and this doesn't even factor the cost of renting the venue, hiring judges, and broadcasting the events). However, by holding these events, they make money from the increased demand for Legacy, of which they have many staples. Why would they abandon Legacy to allow some other large retailer to hold similar events?

If they are interested in Modern, it would be in addition to Legacy, not instead of Legacy, but that's difficult because there are only two available days each weekend, and they will never drop Standard in favor of Modern. However, unlike Legacy five years ago in which most staples were very underpriced, most Modern staples are correctly priced (due to increased awareness of price trend and/or simultaneous usability in Legacy as well) or even overpriced (due to rampant speculation), so there's not much for SCG to invest in the market. Moreover, while there is undeniably interest in Modern (from players who can't afford to play Legacy or otherwise hate cards like Force of Will and Wasteland), there is very little support for it at the local game stores level, so SCG would certainly have to invest heavily into the format and eat some losses before they can turn out a profit. (Frankly, if they did abandon Legacy for Modern, it would suggest to me that they tried to drive up a "bubble" in Legacy prices before moving onto a new pump-and-dump, but I don't believe the conditions are right, and I also believe they're an ethical company that cares a lot about the reputation, so they wouldn't do such a thing.)

[Phoenix Ignition]

I agree with everything lordofthepit just said. In addition, I'd just like to say that Legacy is the only reason I was at all interested in keeping up with Magic and the new sets for probably 4 years. I'll play the occasional draft or off-format PTQ/nearby GP. The fact that Legacy is alive at all keeps many of us interested enough to throw Wizards some money from time to time on their new sets or drafts, so it is absolutely in their best interest to keep it alive as a format.