I play 2-5 tournamets annualy, but I play-test with a local testing team almost regularly.
Do I care about Wizards' intentions with legacy? [B]I couldn't care less.
Will I liquidate my collection if Wizards decides to abolish (wtf) legacy? Ha - fuck1ng - ha.
Why? Because there's nothing like playing my Cabal Therapies, Hymn to Tourachs, Veteran Explorers, insert-random-but-awesome-legacy-card-here around Dazes, Forces of Will, Counterspells, insert-random-but-horrid-legacy-card-here, casually as I always did.
Modern? One PTQ annualy, perhaps. And that's only because I still haven't found a suitable legacy shell for BBE.
Last edited by publius_aelius; 10-09-2012 at 05:43 AM. Reason: Grammar.
WTH...? Did I say Legacy sucks and Modern rocks? I said that I don't like Legacy anymore and wished people in my town would shift to Modern.Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition
Sister, without explaining any of this you just sound like you're trying to be contrary for the sake of it. Deeply flawed how? Mismanaged how (I don't see this at all...)? Actual discussion is useful, when using points formed upon logic and/or facts. Saying things like "Modern is shit" (not that you did, but someone above did) is just a terribly immature foot-stomping temper tantrum throwing way of having a discussion.
You're being just as obnoxious and childish as the people who hate Modern.
Seriously, why is everyone clinging to the "us vs. them" mentality? Is this how everyone wants to act about everything? Isn't it enough (for us Americans) that our political system has gone to shit due to this same attitude?
I have a strong feeling it's just the exclusively Legacy players feeling threatened about a new eternal format, but this shit's just crazy. Stop feeling so threatened, legacy will exist for as long as people like us want to play it. SCGs are going strong, even if WotC wants to throw some more support to the Modern format, it doesn't mean that your favorite format is going to die.
EDIT: I'll just end with this: The way to attract people to the things you like and to get them excited about it is to be relentlessly positive about it. You don't put down things that other people like because "yours is better", you don't try to take other things away. Be relentlessly positive about how awesome Legacy is and the format will be healthy. There's a reason the general opinion of Legacy players is that they're huge elitist assholes. Change that.
Sorry bro, but Legacy is dying. Just like everything else that is living. I actually expect it to survive for a long time in my city, because people just love their pet decks. But I'm just burnt out of the format.
I actually think Legacy is the best format in Magic, but I don't care about losing to turn 2 Emrakul/Griselbrand and stuff like that anymore. Want to move on to other things.
No, it isn't. Legacy is on the rise, it has more people playing it now than it EVER has. You can say it WILL die in a short/medium/long term, but you can't say it is dying at the moments. Facts and numbers disagree with you.
This doesn't even happen that often, at least not where I play. Does nobody own a Force of Will in your shop?
If you got tired of Legacy, you'll get tired of modern too and wish that to die or maybe you'll grow up and learn to appreciate things.In my city there are lots of Legacy players. People just like the eternal format thing.
I don't like Legacy anymore, tired of the same old cards and the price is just stupid.
If Legacy dies off people are going to move on to the next closest eternal format. Modern.
Therefore, if Legacy dies off Modern will become more played in my city.
I see nothing wrong with that...
Honestly, I do not see that format daying anytime soon. In fact, Legacy is far more popular than it has EVER been, thanks to SCG who make ridiculous amounts of money off of it. As long as there is money to be made, and 200+ players are showing up every week, then it is not going anywhere. Furthermore, even in my area, there are about 4-6 legacy tournaments a week at LGS within a twenty minute drive. This format has been blowing up for the last few years.
Now, I understand the "price barrier". However, this is not like vintage in that the duals (biggest restrictor) were printed in Revised, unlike the Power which were printed thoruhg unlimited, which means there is a substantialy larger amount of these legacy cards. This does not even mention, like many people have, the amount of cards that are not on the reserved list (FoW, wasteland, etc..) that could easily see reprints.
Also, even IF the price was the limiting factor, it is not like the tens of thousands of legacy palyers are going to all of a sudden lose their cards. So, while fewer people might be entering the format, many will retain there cards.
Finally, from an economic perspective, what would happen if the format DID die becasue of costs? Well, there would be a dramtically reduced demand and some people would be liquidating their cards to try to get whatever money out they can. This would cause both an influx in the amount of staples available, as well as drive down the price of staples dramatically. Hence, it seems that it the format would just grow again as people could pay much less for legacy cards.
this becomes even more important when you crack 30.
God, tell me about it. :D There's definitely something of a "socially migratory" aspect to the kind of Magic I've been playing lately. The formats I want to play are more than slightly dictated by the kind of people playing them. I fucking fucking fucking suck at Cube, but I will take that playgroup over the randoms at FNM pretty much any day of the week. EDH goes just as broken as Vintage a lot of the time but I will get my little kid hopes up playing my questionable Sedris homebrew way before I get in it with the Modern players around here.
It's not like there isn't a Venn diagram of players in other/all formats here, but by and large the kind of personalities that are attracted to mainstream Magic events are the last people I want to play with anymore. I'd play more Legacy if "the right folks" were playing it, but mostly they don't seem to be. Meh.
Even more importantly, the dual lands are not as important as the Power 9. If you want to play Vintage without the power 9, you get to play...Dredge? I think that's the only one. And that'll still run you a lot to get 4x Bazaar of Baghdad. In Legacy, there are multiple competitive decks that do not use any dual lands.
Furthermore, there are better budget replacements. If you don't have a Black Lotus, you can use...um...well, Lion's Eye Diamond doesn't do the trick, and Lotus Petal is already Restricted. In Vintage, there just aren't budget replacements for the Power 9 where you can just swap out the more expensive ones for the cheaper one (and the few I can think of are Restricted anyway). But in Legacy, you can pick up a shockland. Certainly, your deck will be weaker than if you were playing with the original duals and you're not going to be hitting Top 8 at a big tournament, but in terms of deck construction it isn't hard to--from a construction perspective, anyway--replace a Tundra with a Hallowed Fountain or a Badlands with a Blood Crypt. With the shocklands being reprinted, this makes it an even more viable option as they'll work even better on a budget.
I'm not sure if this is necessary true, though. Vintage is pretty dead, and you haven't seen dropping of its cards. Then again, the cards are much lower in number which might make a difference, but the Power 9 are far more collectible than the dual lands.Finally, from an economic perspective, what would happen if the format DID die becasue of costs? Well, there would be a dramtically reduced demand and some people would be liquidating their cards to try to get whatever money out they can. This would cause both an influx in the amount of staples available, as well as drive down the price of staples dramatically. Hence, it seems that it the format would just grow again as people could pay much less for legacy cards.
2 years to go. I'm already depressed.
IMO the format will only die when Wizards and SCG stop supporting the format. We already saw some of that with the latest tournaments from Wizards, where Legacy was replaced with Modern.
All Wizards needs to do is to continue supporting Modern and stick to their promise of reprinting format staples in new sets.
The growth of Legacy is actually what is going to kill it. The bigger it gets, the more people wanna play it. But then they realise they have to spend a small fortune to build a deck. If Modern is a cheaper eternal format that has more tournaments, I have no doubt which one they'll choose.
I can see Wizards stop supporting the format in the near future. I don't think its unlikely that Legacy GPs will become as commonplace as Vintage GPs.
However, I think we'll still see secondaries like SCG continue supporting the format for a long time. While Wizards can't profit much from Legacy, SCG and other secondary-market vendors do make a significant profit from selling the cards.
There is no doubt that there is a cap on Legacy, but this will only reduce the number of people that are playing the format to that cap. It won't reduce the number to zero. Dual lands could jump up to thousands of dollars, preventing any new players from entering the format, but those that paid $20 per dual a few years ago will still have their cards, nothing is preventing them from playing.
And perhaps when the cards will reach their threshold, a large amount of players will sell off their cards, but this influx of cards back into the market would also drop the value of those cards, and let others enter the format.
As long as there are still large tournaments for the format going on, I don't see any cause for concern. Now if SCG said they were going to change their tournaments from Standard and Legacy to Standard and Modern, then I'd be more concerned.
Modern decks still cost a fortune however. In fact, Modern has more to grow in terms of demand, and the supply (while promised at being reprinted) won't be able to keep up in the short term. This means the return of $100 Goyfs, $40 Thoughtseize $40 Cliques and $20 Cryptic Commands, not to mention the support mana bases (shocks, fetches).
Legacy is sitting at an equilibrium right now between "new players" and "affordability". It only takes a few more players wanting to join to cause it to get thrown way off. I think the entire stimulus is a shortage of supply.
Also, this:
West side
Find me on MTGO as Koby or rukcus -- @MTGKoby on Twitter
* Maverick is dead. Long live Maverick!
My Legacy stream
My MTG Blog - Work in progress
What tournaments have replaced Legacy with Modern?
no legacy events were replaced with modern. More GP's were added.
westcoast degeneracy
I can try and give a quick and dirty rundown (you could write a fucking thesis on this type of shit). It might not be entirely accurate, but these are my biggest gripes with the format, and what might be done to fix them.
-Not enough card selection. Now I'm no fan of Blue hogging all the good stuff in Legacy and Vintage, but a fast Eternal format (Modern isn't all that slow) without the ability to see lots of cards is pretty miserable. You have Gifts, Cascade, Sleight of Hand, Serum Visions, and a few niche things like Pod and Harbingers but it doesn't feel like enough, especially when you need to get sideboard hate in game 2 and a usable hand. I'm not sure how they can solve this, but I hope their minds are better than mine, because games decided after you've seen your opening hand plus a few draws is pretty brutal. I'm not sure Wizard gets this though, because they always speak in terms of "turns" when that's not really the best way to look at an Eternal format.
-No serious non-basic hate. Yes, Ghost Quarter, Blood Moon, Fulminator Mage, Molten Rain, and that Suspend-Goyf exist...but they aren't good enough. Good non-basics are incredibly powerful, and moreso in Modern because there aren't really any decks that pack good solutions to them in their 75, much less maindeck. Force is often credited as the glue that holds Legacy together, but Wasteland, Sinkhole, Stifle, and Vindicate all do a good job shaping the Legacy meta such that non-basics can be a liability; you have to think before cramming your manabase full of duals, utility lands, and power lands (Coffers, Sanctum, Cradle, etc). There's also a more format-specific problem too; Tron decks. Just like 12-Post Decks before, Tron decks pretty much push any sort of slower control decks out of the format with their inevitable ludicrous bomb, powered out by Urza-lands. Wizards hates land destruction of any sort now, so I doubt they are willing to fix this, but A Sinkhole for non-basics at RR would do wonders, as would a Vindicate reprint. Maybe more use of Trickbind? Dunno, but there needs to be a real risk to using non-basics, or some way to really punish it effectively.
-It still suffers from the "Legacy-Lite" image. A lot of this is because of the Zendikar fetches making a worse fetch/dual manabase (mostly) the standard, but a lot also comes from the many decktypes being Legacy archetypes "dialed down" to Modern. Burn doesn't have Fireblast and Chain Lightning, so it splashes black for Bump in The Night and sometimes Blightning. Delver-Tempo exists, it just has "worse" counters/removal, and uses Geist instead of Goyf for the "big beater". Combo is different, but only because Wizards either totally nuked them (Elves/Dredge/Storm) or their pieces just don't exist, pushing towards things like Melira or Twin. The way they can solve this would be to print some engine cards that can work in Modern, but just wouldn't make the cut in Legacy, allowing for cool, new archetypes to crop up, and the meta to develop out in a way responding to them, mutating into a meta wildly different from Legacy. Unfortunately, Wizards just printed an incredibly boring "expert core set" and everyone loves it. I don't think they're going to put in extra effort making interesting cards when everyone laps up power creep and "top down" design (not that I dislike flavorful stuff, just that I want some fun mechanical cards too).
-Too much variance. Not only is this format very dependent on opening hands, owing to the lack of card selection, but I've gotten the distinct impression that the die roll is a bit too important as well. I'm not very attached to this point, and I would concede it's wrong if a more experienced player of the format could explain why this was wrong, but I still do have this gut feeling.
And my biggest gripe with Modern....
-It's not all that fun because most of the decks aren't fun. Eternal formats are made up of mistakes and unseen synergies. The problem is, most of the ones in the "modern" era of design are not nearly as fun to play as Legacy ones. This is a very nebulous concept, but I don't see nearly as many "skill-testing" lines of play in Modern decks as I do in Legacy decks. Just look at a lot of the tier decks in Modern; Lifegain Aggro, Tron, Jund, Twin, Tokens, Affinity, Eggs etc. They're pretty simple decks to play, and they don't have a lot of real...how do I say this...flexibility to get yourself out of tight situations. Discounting things like Show and Tell (which I think is a completely stupid deck/archetype that should be banned on those grounds alone), Legacy is much better. Look at Maverick, Nic Fit, Storm, Dredge, Elves, Enchantress, U/W Control, Team America, and even Goblins; there's a lot more choice and player input involved in all of those decks...they're more interesting, more fun. I don't really find Cascading into stuff with BBE or Tron-ramping into Elesh/Emrakul/etc. to be much fun. The deck I've enjoyed the most in Modern is Shamans...it feels fresh, and is actually pretty versatile what with the Harbingers and all. Unfortunately, it seems like only really interesting deck in Modern (and it's cheap to boot).
I mostly switched to EDH. I will always enjoy playing legacy on MWS/cockatrice, and I still have the decks, but no one plays Legacy regularly except occasional FNMs at the local gaming store, and I don't like playing Legacy (or anything really) at the local gaming store because I can't get into "serious business rules mode" for 3-6 packs of {Current Set}.
EDH has a regular player base around here and it's a format that can (somewhat) handle large differentials in power level at the table and can be very fun. It can also be pretty dumb at times and is even more color imbalanced than Legacy (by far), but I'll take what I can get.
Hear, hear.Discounting things like Show and Tell (which I think is a completely stupid deck/archetype that should be banned on those grounds alone), Legacy is much better.
I will say though that I appreciate Loam being a lot more relevant in Modern (from what I know). I really love Loam and I always get kinda sad that it's too durdly for Legacy, becoming more so as the years have passed.
Bardo, Site AdminNowhere do you see: Efficient Answers to Other Cards. Force and MMS will never be banned. Deal.
I view all the "death of Legacy" threads/polls on this forum as merely hypothetical questions (i.e. "What would I do if Legacy didn't exist?", so playing Legacy with myself isn't an option). I think anyone who thinks otherwise is being paranoid (or delusional in their wishful thinking, for those who hate Legacy).
Just some stats:
- The largest single-format Magic event ever held was a Legacy event (GP Madrid 2010, 2227 people).
- The largest Magic event ever held, not sponsored by WotC, was this year's Bazaar of Moxen VI Legacy event (723).
- The most recent Ovino7 Legacy event featured 450 participants (compared to 180 and 200 for Modern and Vintage, respectively).
- The most recent SCG Legacy Open had 205 participants. The one before that (right before Return to Ravnica was released) at Atlanta had 351 participants, the best turnout for an SCG Legacy Open yet, narrowing edging the 350 participants at Washington, D.C., 2 months ago. If anything, the Legacy Open is becoming even more successful than ever.
- There have been 4 Legacy GPs in the past calendar year, so while Wizards may offer more Standard, Limited, and Modern GPs than Legacy, Legacy is also seeing more support from Wizards than ever before. Moreover, while relatively scarce, Legacy GPs are the most attended of any format.
I think that's one of the main problems of Modern and why the idea of that format is so flawed.
There are staples that are simply too powerful for Standard to be reprinted.
Legacy has the same problem - Wizards could easily reprint stuff like FoW or Karakas, but they simply DON'T. Best thing we can hope for is them throwing us a bone in form of a FTV or the new Commander set thing. The same most likely applies to Modern sooner or later, too, putting it into the same shitty place in terms of reprints as Legacy.
What a strange topic about something that may or may not happen in a distant future...
People are both panicking and responding way too much. Legacy is more than ok, with all the large worldwide tournaments constantly breaking record attendances. That includes SCG circuit, Bazaar of Moxen and Ovino in Italy. Prices are raising because of the constant and strong demand, not because the format is "dying".
Legacy is an eternal format that lets you play with all the old iconic cards and because of that it will never go away. To be honest, main push Legacy got in last few years didn't come from Wizards direction, but from independent organizers. There's no real reason to be afraid of "Wizards killing Legacy".
Anyway, Modern is not competing with Legacy - it's competing with standard.
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