The last time I played CT against a combo deck T1 I didn't name Brainstorm, and when I flashed CT abck T@ he brainstormed away the nameable cards. Sooo...Originally Posted by ScatmanX
T1 CT name BS
T2 MWM flashback CT name Burning wish, just to cut him off of his T2 play. If he drew SnT off Ponder...
T3 Play Port, swing for 1. Port him in upkeep
T4 Play Port, swing for 2. Double Port him in upkeep.
If he didn't draw a SnT threat or a SnT off his Ponder...
T3 Play Port and Warchief, swing for 4, let him cast his Intuition.
T4 Play Port, double Port in upkeep, beat for 4 a turn for another turn or two, then swing for lethal.
Went to a small tournament last Sunday, with this (somewhat) generic mono-red list. I was expecting Dredge, UW Miracles, Mavs, Belcher, Snt variants.
13 Mountains
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Mogg War Marshall
2 Goblin Chieftain
2 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 SGC
Sideboard:
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pyrokinesis
1 REB
1 Pyroblast
2 Pithing Needle
Round 1 - Dredge
G1. I was on the play, Vial first. He plays Gemstone. I got in a couple of damages with MWM and took damage from an Ichorid. He fails to find dredgers for several turns until I built my horde for the win.
OUT: can't remember
IN: 2 Relics, 2 Crypts
G2: I had an opening hand with a Relic, a Lackey, a couple of Ringleaders and lands. He therapies my Ringleaders, and I play Lackey. He therapies my Relic, and I topdeck a Crypt. He Claims it, I took out his graveyard. He dredges but can't find anything relevant but Narcomoebas while goblins whittle away at his life.
1-0
Round 2 - Merfolk
G1: Early lords eat my face in 4 turns.
OUT: Sharpshooter, Tuktuk Scrapper, 1 Krenko, 1 Stingscourger, another goblin
IN: 3 Pyrokinesis, 1 REB, 1 Pyroblast
G2: CLG. Mutavault, Vial. I waste his Mutavault and he fails to find anything relevant, and I end it scot-free.
G3: He plays a vial, and forces mine. He plays a Cursecatcher and dazes my Lackey. I can't remember how but I put in enough pressure and brought him down to 5. I was down to a Warchief. I played Krenko, and the funny thing was I made tokens. He lived for another turn due to my excellent math. The lesson I learned was, Krenko is 3/3, and can attack too.
2-0
Round 3 - Esperblade
G1: This was a long and grueling battle, he keeps fending off goblins with a Batterskull. I manage to resolve a Prospector for a turn, but gets STPed his turn. I Gempalm the germ, he plays a Jitte off a second SFM. I was keeping a Scrapper for this and paid his weight in gold, playing him through vial, blocking the equipped SFM at same time. He was slowly gaining back his life until I was building an army, until I Matron an Incinerator for the SCM with the Batterskull. He concedes.
The round took to time while we were sideboarding and he opted not to play game 2.
3-0
At this point there was a couple of undefeated players that I could've have matched with: among them UW Miracle and Hive Mind. I was hoping to dodge SnT. With my awfully good luck, I was matched with...
Round 4 - Hive Mind
G1: Show and Tell to Emrakul. Game Over.
I was thinking that the pacts could be countered with Chalice @ 0, so I sided those. I also had a mistake of not adding another Stinger in my SB so I had no choice for a sideboard except for the Chalice, which was a big mistake.
G2: I mulled to a hand with a Stinger and a Chalice, played it at 0, SnTs Hive Mind, plays the red Pact, and the copied spell laughs at the chalice while I lose without warming up my seat.
3-1
Round 5 - RUG Delver
The last round of swiss I was a bit confident with a matchup against a fair deck, so I went ahead and won G1 on the wings of Caverns. I sided out some goblins for 2 Pyrokinesis, 2 Relics and a Chalice.
G2 An early flipping delver cruises on top of my goblins, with 3/3 Mongeese. And then joined by a fat Goyf. Lost.
I was contemplating on replacing the pyrokinesis with the chalice. Decided against it. So I paid for it.
G3 Mongeese and flipping delvers again, and Stifle is the MVP. Killed the delver with Pyrokinesis, but apart from that, no sideboard appeared. Lost again.
Sadly, I dropped to 6th place, and the Top4 players decided not to play and share the loots.
What I learned.
-Skirk Prospector still shines.
-Tuktuk is effective, but a lot of investment is needed.
-KRENKO CAN ATTACK.
-SnT variants are unwinnable if you do just rely on Stingscourger. I am really hating this matchup for those who do not want to splash. I think I will try out Angel of Despair next time. Or X Thorns (for Hive Mind). Thinking of leaving a couple of Pyrokinesis out.
Thanks for reading. :)
Does anyone play a Vexing Shusher singleton for thier Matron's to fetch?
Considering Vials get around counter, could shusher be a way to get the O-ring (or other non-creature spells) into play and avoid counter?
I'm just curious whether it might be playable.
Thanks for the Report!
Would like everyone's opinion on this. Leading with Lackey instead of Relic, once the opponent knows your hand, is the right call? Don't know what I'd do... (But don't know why the opponent would Therapy Ringleader...)
You don't like Shooter here? For me it makes combat math to be always on our favor, specially combined with Kinesis.
Also, you're not afraid of Jitte from them? At least around here they usually pack 2-3 of them, so I tend to leave Tuktuk in...
How many of us are dying against Canadian to fast Delvers, where they Stifle your Gempalm and you just can't outrace it? I ask because maybe bringing in the ReB is right again, to kill it dead, or stop Stifle, that makes this MU quite worse.
Maybe in your build try bringing in ReB, Pyroblast, 2 Relic, 2 Kinesis, for Scrapper, Shooter, 2x Chieftain, 2x Piledriver?
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
You might be right about this MU being unwinnable. However, I find those decks highly inconsitent and my guess would be that you nee to nuke ther Brainstorms with REBs. If that's not possible, aim for their S&T.
I finde that Angel of Despair is a horrible SB tech against them. If you want to have this kind of S&T target for yourself you should either pick Confusion in the Ranks (which is slightly more likely to be castable :-D) or (what I find even better) Stingscourger. This boy does the same job as Angel or Despair with the benefit that (1) he's tutorable/net-able, (2) can be pitched via Vial (which is mouch more unlikely with Angel of Awfulness) and can be cast more eaily in other MUs, whch might give you the time to do so (like MUD or Reanimator).
I might be missing something, since Angelika has been discussed several times in this context - if so, please tell me what her benefits are in comparison to Stinger.
MountainCaverns, Lackey, Go.
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.
I keep hearing people discuss that Goblins is the best deck in the metagame right now, listing various reasons.
What are Goblin's vulnerabilities? It's able to go at least 50% against fair strategies, so does that mean it has trouble against unfair/Combo matchups only? Just trying to understand the Goblin perspective :)
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Vulnerabilities = combo, anything fast Storm or SnT. OmniTell is rough just because we can't interact with it. Also, E Plague always sucks, as does Elsh Norn, Propaganda effects (dueling grounds). Sweepers aren't nearly as difficult as permanent based hate. Goblins can rebound well, but if they can't build a board presence they're screwed. Mostly goblins just loses to faster decks it can't interact with. Belcher SnT TES ANT
SNT is unfavorable but nowhere near unwinnable. Confusion in the Ranks is just as "bad" as Angel of Despair: both are super narrow SB cards. You're not supposed to cast them. It's a giant waste of mana. And no one is taking out SS to board these cards in, I don't know where you're getting that idea from.
"We are goblinkind, heirs to the mountain empires of chieftains past. Rest is death to us, and arson is our call to war."
"I might be missing something, since Angelika has been discussed several times in this context - if so, please tell me what her benefits are in comparison to Stinger."
Let's say Player A uses SnT and flips an Omniscience, and Player B flips a Stingscourger. Whelp, Player B wasted a Stingscourger. Now let's say Player B have a Vial @ 2, and you flipped a Matron to fetch for Stingscourger. In this scenario, Player B did not waste a Stingscourger, and can use it whenever. Now Player A casts Emrakul off of Omniscience and gains Time Walk. Even if Player B uses Vial to flash in Stingscourger, Player A can recast Emrakul and get Time Walk again, which is why Karakas is also not good vs. Omniscience. All this does is to delay our death. The problem is Omniscience, and Angel of Despair destroys it. Though, I guess CitR is a more hilarious solution.
For the Omniscience MU, I am running with 1 Stingscourger, 2 Krosan Grip, 3 REB, and 3 Angel of Despair. I am siding in eight cards for this MU.
I didn't mean that CitR should actually be cast (which should become clear when you read the ":-D" as: "...like that would ever happen...."). I said that it is just as narrow Angel of Despair with the "benefit" that you CAN cast it (which might be relevant in 1/100 games), whereas Angel of Despair is truly UNCASTABLE (in 1000/1000 games).
Neither did I say that anyone is taking out Stingscourger for narrow-sideboard-cards-of-your-choice. I literally said that if you want this kind of SB tech (one that profits from their S&T; one that can be put into play when they cast S&T) you are better of with Stingscourger than with those other cards, because Stinger actually has more than this (S&T) way to hit the floor (Vial, cast it) AND he is more likely to find the way to your hand when you need it (Matron, Ringleader). So my guess would be that you better put 3-4 Stinger in your SB than waste those slots for Angel/CitR....you should either pick Confusion in the Ranks (which is slightly more likely to be castable :-D)
MountainCaverns, Lackey, Go.
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.
Another benefit of Stingscourger in the OmniTell MU is his ETB trigger, which gives you a chance to REB or KGrip your opponent's Omniscience before they have a chance to cast any win conditions with it (though I'm assuming if you have REB you already would have cast it on SnT, but whatevs).
Wow, this is awesome. So if you have Stingscourger + K.Grip on your hand, you have answers for Omnicience, Emrakul and Grizzlebrand. Nice.
Works with Matron/Ring/mwm/sgc for Omniscence too.
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
That hand + 2G open means you can't lose to SnT. Yup.
how likely is it to have that kind of hand when you need it? not likely. really not.
Just board in Angel and mulligan to whatever it takes (even to 3) to get him. then do nothing and wait till Show and Tel is cast. Use the Angel and destroy Grisel/Emrakul/Omni and attack 4 turns with the angel and win easily ;-) how often will that happen? if you are not afraid of hard mulligans: very likely :-)
I still like the idea of boarding in 1 Stingscourger, 2 Krosan Grip, 3 REB, and 3 Angel of Despair. Stingscourger takes care of Emrakul and Grizzlebrand off of SnT. REB handles SnT if not countered. Krosan Grip takes care of Omniscience if you flip something with an ETB ability. And Angel of Despair destroys them all. Just siding in three Angel of Despairs is not enough for me. Nor is just siding in Krosan Grips. Having eight SB cards and a Stingscourger MD is about right, and only Angel of Despair slot is wasted specifically for this MU. I gave up my anti-combo cards for Angel of Despair, which seems fair because I don't expect too many combo players in this current meta. I have not been fighting them anyways.
I couldn't really remember exactly if it was Ringleader or Warchief, what I am sure is though is that it wasn't Lackey. I think the correct strategy would have been to play the Relic. But at that moment I was kinda sure that he had artifact hate, and nothing relevant on the yard, so I went for Lackey.
I was thinking that while I was shuffling the shooter out, but failed to realize how awesome he was until the matches later. I thought that Prospector would be better here. (But I sided out Shooter which means I wasn't thinking straight here. I had sideboard notes but failed to read them)You don't like Shooter here? For me it makes combat math to be always on our favor, specially combined with Kinesis.
Also, you're not afraid of Jitte from them? At least around here they usually pack 2-3 of them, so I tend to leave Tuktuk in...
I really am unimpressed with Pyrokinesis here, it can only kill delvers and thin goyfs. And most of the time if he has multiple flipped delvers you're dead already. Chalice at 1 stops at least 12 cards, and 2/3 of his creatures. But I agree, REBs are very right again, especially since its useful against a lot of other DTBs.How many of us are dying against Canadian to fast Delvers, where they Stifle your Gempalm and you just can't outrace it? I ask because maybe bringing in the ReB is right again, to kill it dead, or stop Stifle, that makes this MU quite worse.
Maybe in your build try bringing in ReB, Pyroblast, 2 Relic, 2 Kinesis, for Scrapper, Shooter, 2x Chieftain, 2x Piledriver?
I wasn't really sold with the Bald Maria Ozawa angel but wanted to give her a try, but since she's useless against Hive Mind (which is piloted here by someone who is always in the T8 he might as well be a sub-boss) and with your apprehension I think I changed my mind. I'll keep in mind that ETB trigger on Stinger and REB response. Thanks for that. :)
Last edited by raindrainxi; 10-10-2012 at 01:05 AM.
Except SS taking up 3+ slots is much worse than Angel of Despair which is more focused but also much more powerful in that matchup. No one is going to side in a bunch board in a bunch of SS anywhere else.
"We are goblinkind, heirs to the mountain empires of chieftains past. Rest is death to us, and arson is our call to war."
I lead with Relic every time game 2/3 vs. dredge/reanimator. There's no real reason to hold it, and most dredge players will discard their dredger at EOT giving you an opportunity to remove it on their upkeep. If he kept a 2 dredger hand it's not as much of a stall, but you can still get them.
Plus, the deck plays Therapy. You can bet he will use it to take your grave hate whenever he can. They know you sided it in, so why sandbag it?
Still - isn't it better to splash white for Oblivion Ring? It is not so narrow card as Angel of Despair. It is also better then Krosan Grip because in addition you don’t need to have Stingscourger (or any other creature with etb trigger if opponent will put Omnisciecne) to fight S&T decks (with exception of Hive Mind). Also because goblins are on the radar right now I think he have to prepare for Engineered Plague, Humility and other enchantments. The two obvious downsides of O-ring are that it can be counter and destroyed.
It's not likely to have Stinscourger and KGrip, but it is pretty likely that you can have KGrip and another goblin with an ETB trigger (MWM, Matron, Ringleader, SGC). Those ETB triggers really give goblins a decent chance of Gripping the Omni before it can hardcast Emrakul. So if you play right, KGrip can be very effective in the SnT mu without being super narrow in the sb.
Angel of Despair is probably the best card against SnT, but it cannot be played against anything else. KGrip is great against Miracles, batter skull, and all that other shit. So if you're planning for a metagame where you can't just cram narrow answers to semi-popular decks you're going to need a plan for the playable, adaptable cards in your sb.
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