[Deck] Affinity

[slave]

My list isn't far off that - gotta admit your advice helped me shape the list bigtime. Ta for that.

I've been playing with this deck casually too, amongst friends who have vintage/legacy decks, and I've been playing with a few additional cards that would rarely ever see tourney play.
The one I've been surprised by the most is Salvage Titan as a singleton.
I've found it quite useful post a board wipe or an artifact wipe.
I haven't tried playing with it in a tourney against unknown opponents, but it was quite useful when I drew/found it with Tezz - post wipe.
I should explain, once I've emptied my hand, I play expecting the wipe to come (DoJ, BSZ, Terminus etc.) so I always hold back a few cards that can be potential fuel for it if I have it in hand. I also play a full 4 Darksteel Citadel.
Have any of you tried playing with the Salvage?

[Kanti]

Play 4 Etched Champions main. No matter what. They are the strongest creature in the deck, and I would be hard-pressed to even design a 3cc creature as good as Champion.

If you aren't playing Tezz as your finisher there is really no reason to run a Disciple/Vial build. Disciple helps vs just about every match-up, and it's extremely good vs Deed (like really there is nothing better than to plop down a Disciple and have it pseudo-Needle the Deed). Vial is equally potent against U-decks, and helps just as much as a Drum against mana-denial decks.

I also love Enforcer as the decks 3cc beater as it's colorless which is huge vs Maverick. Like HUGE. And they get better in multiples.

here's my list (which has been the same for months really)


18
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Seat of the Synod
3 City of Brass
2 Ancient Den
1 Karakas

28
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Etched Champion
4 Frogmite
4 Ornithopter
4 Vault Skirge
3 Myr Enforcer
1 Master of Etherium

14
4 Cranial Plating
4 Thoughtcast
3 AEther Vial
3 Mox Opal

Sideboard
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Angel of Despair


The md Karakas is there since I can't really fit it in the sb. I used to have a second one in the sb over the Angel, but now that Omniscience is growing more and more popular by the day I feel that Karakas isn't good enough.

Does Terastodon work vs Omniscience and Emrakul? I'm pretty sure it does, and if it does it would probably be the best option as it gives you more options when it cips.

I would play Tezz in the side but I think Chalice is way stronger vs UW (shuts off all of their removal, SDT, and Brainstorm, which is huge as not only does this force them to Terminus your creatures, but also makes it harder for them to cast a Terminus).

Don't think Affinity is too great of a choice for the meta though, as Terminus really hurts this deck. If they ever print some sort of Artifact Ringleader then it would be amazing, but until then...

[Shawon]

Don't think Affinity is too great of a choice for the meta though, as Terminus really hurts this deck. If they ever print some sort of Artifact Ringleader then it would be amazing, but until then...

We already have that ringleader: Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas.

Terminus is annoying, but you just have to remember the old days of Standard when you had to play around Wrath of God. Apply a good amount of pressure while sandbagging additional force. It also helps if you have some disruption, ala Spell Pierce, Cabal Therapy, or Chalice. Or have a trump card resistant to Terminus: Tezzeret.

[Kanti]

Only that, you know, he's a planeswalker and not a creature (pretty huge) and re-stocks your hand 1 card at a time (pretty slow).

And "the old days of standard" didn't have Plow>Snapcaster>Plow, which make it very difficult to surmount enough pressure to put your opponent on his back. Compounded by the fact that Miracle decks have Disenchants post sb this is really a losing battle. Compare this to a better synergestic aggro-deck (Goblins) which has a positive match-up against UW decks.

There is really no reason to play this deck in the current metagame besides it being someones pet deck.

[slave]

Kanti, how useful do you find Aether Vial?
Í imagine it's very useful to get past counter etc., but with all the creatures being costed fairly differently, are you just using it for the 3-CMC creatures most of the time?

[Shawon]

Only that, you know, he's a planeswalker and not a creature (pretty huge) and re-stocks your hand 1 card at a time (pretty slow).

You're right, I forgot that Ringleader doesn't guarantee 5 to the dome nor takes 12-16 life from your opponent by itself. Moot semantics aside, I would put Tezzeret and an artifact Goblin Ringleader more or less on the same playing field as threats control players must answer (or lose).

If you're losing to UW Miracles, it's not because you don't have access to a fictional Goblin Ringleader, it's because you're either not running Tezzeret or your disruption isn't good enough.

Let's digress from Tezzeret for a second. Kanti, I know you claim Chalice is pretty strong against UW, but how has it actually come up in testing? Aside from the fact that it's luck-dependent and that drawing it beyond turns 1-3 is kinda pointless, 1 Disenchant or EE can undo all the effort and setup you made for that game-breaking Chalice. Can you explain to me how Chalice makes this matchup much more manageable than Tezzeret could? I just don't see how a card specifically used as a disruption tool that can answered by Disenchant or EE be a better solution than a card that ignores both mentioned cards, wins on its own, and isn't useless when drawn in the late game. It should be obvious by now that you don't think Chalice is good against Miracles, otherwise you would've mentioned how the Miracles matchup is positive for you now and you wouldn't be saying this bullshit below.

There is really no reason to play this deck in the current metagame besides it being someones pet deck.

I'm making a generalization here so I'm not making any statement on your actual skill, but it's this type of attitude that keeps alive the reputation of Affinity being played only by shitty players, and it's why it prevents a progressive and communal discussion of the archetype to become as successful as the Nic Fit thread discussion.

Who are you to say this deck isn't playable anymore, when you yourself have made little effort to try to adapt to the metagame? Trying out Chalice and then giving up on the deck after it doesn't work the way you want it to isn't effort. Kanti, all you've changed from your last decklist is the manabase and 3 relevant sb cards. You still have the 4 Chalices and the 4 Revokers in the SB, and by now you've given up on the matchup as well as Affinity in general. Is it possible for you to consider the outside chance that you might need to adapt your deck instead of heralding the same cards you claim are solid in most if not every matchup (-> Ravager + Disciple, Chalice) and blaming the metagame?

Obviously Chalice hasn't done enough for you against Miracles as you claimed it would. Why not test Tezzeret now, as it was the other sb card you were considering for the Miracles matchup? Feel me to contradict me, but your statements lead me to believe either you are really attached to Disciple or you refuse to actually test Tezzeret. Nothing else makes sense, because you're the only one in this thread so far who continues to believe that Disciple isn't considerable as a card to cut and continues to refuse actually testing Tezzeret. You haven't even tested the very card that everyone else runs to good results and you're wondering why you're having a hard time.

[Johanovich]

There is really no reason to play this deck in the current metagame besides it being someones pet deck.

Just wanted to post out latest results with this deck:

We participated at a local store legacy event. There were 19 people and we ended in first place with affinity (and second with the gate and 7th with reanimator).

We played this list:

3 etched champion
4 frogmite
4 vault skirge
4 master of etherium
4 ornithopter
4 memnite
2 arcbound ravager
4 cranial plating
4 thoughtcast
4 chalice of the void
3 mox opal
3 springleaf drum
2 tezzeret, agent of bolas

4 ancient tomb
4 seat of the synod
3 vault of whispers
4 darksteel citadel

SB:
3 phyrexian revoker
2 cursed totem
2 grafdigger’s cage
2 tormod’s crypt
2 spellskite
2 thorn of amethyst
2 meekstone

Dunno if this deck was paired against miracles since one of my teammates was playing with it, but chalice was the star of the show for the deck. According to him nearly half of the matches were won due to an early chalice sticking on 1. Spellskite was also amazing.

Now we have found a 4th mox so the list has been changed to the following to completely exclude any spells with cmc 1 in the maindeck:

3 etched champion
4 frogmite
4 vault skirge
4 master of etherium
4 ornithopter
4 memnite
3 arcbound ravager
4 cranial plating
4 thoughtcast
4 chalice of the void
4 mox opal
2 tezzeret, agent of bolas

4 ancient tomb
4 seat of the synod
4 vault of whispers
4 darksteel citadel

SB:
3 phyrexian revoker
2 cursed totem
2 grafdigger’s cage
2 tormod’s crypt
2 spellskite
2 thorn of amethyst
2 meekstone

Just to point out affinity can still kick some ass!

[Kanti]

Just because Tezzeret is as much as a threat to Tundra control decks doesn't mean you should be comparing it to a Ringleader, who would be good vs Tundra and versus Bayou and versus Volcanic Island and etc etc etc. Tezz doesn't guarantee 5 to the dome, and his ultimate ability doesn't always get the chance to go off. Compare this to an Envoy effect and you can see how a guaranteed X/Y body that creature CA on the spot would be miles better. Him being a Planeswalker is something that even furthers the blow as you can't Vial him in, and he gets hit by Spell Pierce, which sees play in just about every U-deck.

How strong is Chalice against Miracles? Extremely strong. A resolved Chalice against a Miracle deck makes it very, very hard for the Tundra player to interact with you. Seeing as I would be siding in x4 Revokers against them as well E.E becomes much less of a problem. Tezzeret winning on his own is a pipe dream. If you are not seeing how disruption can be better than another threat you should maybe spend some time playing other decks, maybe something like Death and Taxes, or even Pox, to see just how much damage disruption can do in this format. And no, the card isn't dead passed t3. A resolved Chalice on t4 for 1-2 is still extremely strong. And that is on it's lonesome. If you already have a Chalice@1 out and resolve a Chalice@2 the game is pretty much yours.

Nothing, I repeat NOTHING, will make the Miracle match-up positive, barring sbing +2-4 Tezz, +4 Revokers, +4 Chalice. Even then the match-up would still probably be 50-50. Saying a card isn't good against a deck because it doesn't make the match-up positive is pure idiocy. By that line of thought Leyline of the Void isn't good versus Dredge because they can play around it. A resolved Chalice, in my testing, is the best shot this deck has of winning the Miracle match-up.

So it's not Chalice that isn't doing enough for me, it's the other 56 cards I'm running in the deck. Do yourself a favor and test Chalice yourself before bashing it. And I don't really understand the part about it being "luck dependant". What the fuck does that even mean?

I have tested Tezzeret Affinity, and I have had much more positive results with Vial Affinity as opposed to Tezzeret Affinity. I don't know where you got the idea that I "refuse to test Tezzeret" but that is a pretty baseless statement. How on earth do you know what I do, and don't test?

I have tried to adapt, and it has brought me to my sideboard. I tested a bunch of weird sideboards and decided it was best to get back to basics. Chalice is incredible against so many decks in the format (UW Tundra, Canadian Thresh, Storm, Elves), and Revoker is pretty much the same (UW Tundra, Maverick, SnT, Storm). Crypt is obviously good vs Reanimator and Dredge (especially against Dredge where running x4 Ravager already lets you steal some g1's. g2 you will have 8 hate cards against them which is huge)

Disciple+Ravager is amazing. They are some of the strongest cards this deck has besides Champion and Plating. I don't really think I can explain this anymore (I posted my thoughts some pages ago). Turning everything into [card]Shock[/cards] is good, among the other dozens of uses they have (blank spot removal, get around blockers, combo-kill them, stop Jitte, stop Lifelink, make Deed useless, stop Emrakul, makes Etched Champion a monster, makes Vault Skirge a monster, allows you to profitably block Goyf). Why do I herald these cards? Because they are fucking AMAZING. And they have been since Affinity has existed. Compare that to running, what, Memnite over Disciple? Yeah, that's real smart.

My list hasn't changed because it's solid. It hasn't changed because this is probably the most linear deck in Magic, passed some nonesense like Belcher. If you need any explanation regarding my card choices I suggest you read the opening post, about 8 times over.

A possibility is to cut the Crypts for 2-3 Tezz, +some other card. You'd be sacrificing the Reanimator and Dredge matches for the UW match. This might be worth it, but it's metagame dependant and would probably do you over at a larger event when you face Dredge and auto-lose.

I stand by my comment. Unless you are playing this deck because you like it there is no reason not to choose another, more powerful, aggro-deck. If you don't agree with this I don't really care, but you are cutting yourself short of winning more games. If I had to swing with creatures I'd play Elves or Gobbos any day over this pile.

And I didn't say it wasn't playable. I only said that there was no reason to play this deck less it was your pet deck. Affinity has no advantages over Goblins. None. And this is before Cavern and Krenko were even printed.

Also, please direct me to the "good results" that everyone playing Tezz Affinity runs to. Besides like 3-4 SCG finishes (which all occured before Miracles became a deck) the deck blows. Not only does it lose to Miracles but it has a very tough time against Maverick, especially if you run a lot of Master of Etheriums as they are never going to connect.

Affinity is shit. That I typed out this huge wall of text for such a shitty deck is a disappointment.


@John

Congratz on the result. I've been thinking of putting Chalice in the main as well, just don't know what I would cut. I've also been pondering on cutting the Frogmites for Revokers and putting in the 4th Vial main-deck. This might actually be a good idea.

I'd find room for the 4th Champion, like I said earlier. He is your best threat vs UW, RUG, Maverick, and Goblins.

[Shawon]

Just because Tezzeret is as much as a threat to Tundra control decks doesn't mean you should be comparing it to a Ringleader

You're the one who made the comparison, not me. I didn't literally mean we have a functional equivalent of Goblin Ringleader in the form of Tezzeret. All I meant was that we have a proactive threat that is more or less as problematic for Miracles as an artifact Ringleader would. One of these cards actually exists and the other one doesn't, so making a serious comparison between the two is an exercise in jackassery.

Tezzeret winning on his own is a pipe dream.

Hyperbole much? I've already explained many times how Tezzeret can win the game by itself and it's not hard at all to win after it resolves. How hard is that for you to understand? Use your brain. Tezzeret has 3 abilities, all of which are relevant against Miracles. I'm not going to spell this out for you anymore.

If you are not seeing how disruption can be better than another threat you should maybe spend some time playing other decks, maybe something like Death and Taxes, or even Pox, to see just how much damage disruption can do in this format.

Thanks for that wonderful advice, Kanti! I had no idea how useful disruption can be against other decks. I mean, what was I thinking using Spell Pierce to improve my matchups against control and combo? How stupid of me to think my strategy would do anything other than disrupt my opponent?

I have tested Tezzeret Affinity, and I have had much more positive results with Vial Affinity as opposed to Tezzeret Affinity. I don't know where you got the idea that I "refuse to test Tezzeret" but that is a pretty baseless statement. How on earth do you know what I do, and don't test?

You're right, I don't know what you do or test, and I believe you when you say - you - have - tested - Tezzeret - in - the - past. In. The. Past. Testing Tezzeret when it came out in January 2011 or whenever the fuck you tested him isn't the same as testing him now. You should be interested in testing Tezzeret against a specific matchup, not testing Tezz to see how good it is in Affinity.

Turning everything into [b][card]Shock[/cards] is good, among the other dozens of uses they have (blank spot removal, get around blockers, combo-kill them, stop Jitte, stop Lifelink, make Deed useless, stop Emrakul, makes Etched Champion a monster, makes Vault Skirge a monster, allows you to profitably block Goyf).

I'm talking about Disciple, not Ravager, so spare me. Notice how you need Ravager for most of those uses? Take away Ravager, what do you get? You get a puny 1/1 nonartifact that does nothing on its own, and the fact it doesn't hurt your opponent when they cast Terminus is pretty relevant if you are trying to justify keeping Disciple against Miracles.

Why do I herald these cards? Because they are fucking AMAZING. And they have been since Affinity has existed. Compare that to running, what, Memnite over Disciple? Yeah, that's real smart.

Right, running a free card that turns your Drum into a Mox is terribly irrelevant and inconsistent, I should just run a nonartifact 1/1 that doesn't activate Mox Opal, doesn't improve Cranial Plating, and doesn't help me cast Thoughtcast on turn 1 or turn 2 with mana backup for Daze or Spell Pierce. Real smart wouldn't you say?

My list hasn't changed because it's solid. It hasn't changed because this is probably the most linear deck in Magic, passed some nonesense like Belcher. If you need any explanation regarding my card choices I suggest you read the opening post, about 8 times over.

Also, please direct me to the "good results" that everyone playing Tezz Affinity runs to. Besides like 3-4 SCG finishes (which all occured before Miracles became a deck) the deck blows. Not only does it lose to Miracles but it has a very tough time against Maverick, especially if you run a lot of Master of Etheriums as they are never going to connect.

Perhaps you should read this 8 times over:

"What really decides if a deck falls into the linear category is its strategic focus. If a deck is totally focused on pursuing one single angle of attack or abusing one particular kind of interaction, that is what Magic theory calls a linear deck." - Carsten Kotter's article on linear decks

Affinity doesn't fall into this category. It can win through the attack phase, Disciple life loss, or Tezzeret activations. 3 different lines of attack. Not linear, and a deck that isn't linear has plenty of room for change in its design to add or subtract focus on a particular line of attack. In English, no card in the Affinity archetype is above the eye of scrutiny. Including Disciple of the Vault.

In your quote you say your list is solid, yet you're bitching about two matchups, matchups by the way I have by now told you how to address (both on the Source and on MWS). You can say you've tried stuff but you can't go back to the same decklist and expect different results. Then again, I don't care what you do. You can dump the deck if you like, but don't think about saying the deck can't hack in today's metagame if you haven't tried all the available options for a particular matchup. That includes testing Tezzeret specifically against Miracles and I can tell from your posts that you haven't done that.

And popularity or lack thereof has no correlation with the power level of ANY deck. This is the second time you've brought up the 'results' argument when it doesn't have to do with what we're discussing. I mean, really?

[Hanni]

Different angles of attack aren't what make a strategy linear or non-linear, they are simply the difference between being interactive vs non-interactive.

Dredge has multiple angles too, whether it be slow beats with Ichorid and Narcomoeba, 2/2 tokens, or a reanimated fatty. They can also interact with Therapy.

Burn can interact by aiming some of the burn at the opponent's creatures, and they also use creatures these days as another angle of attack.

What constitutes linearity vs non-linearity lies within the fundamental strategy of the deck. There are two basic principles to this.

The first principle:
When you want to drop your hand with a bunch of cheap or free artifact creatures and smash face, that's pretty linear. Most of the creatures are horrible on defense, most lists have limited removal options, and most lists have no way to interact with the stack or otherwise disrupt its opponents. You're entire goal is to drop the opponent from 20 to 0 as fast as possible. Tezzeret does is give you some midgame strength, to compensate for the deck crapping out due to running a ton of underpowered threats like 0/2 fliers and 1/1's. It is still linear though... it either makes a 5/5, does some damage and gains some life, or gives you an Impulse.

When you start running Dispatch, Cabal Therapy, Spell Pierce, Jitte, etc... you become more interactive and less linear.

Which brings me to another point; there isn't some exact difference that makes one deck linear and one deck non-linear. It's not always an all or nothing thing. Some decks are extremely linear, while other decks are only slightly linear. Most Affinity lists are extremely linear, while some are less so.

The second principle:
Affinity's construction is primarily (and almost completely) artifact based, which makes it very linear in this regard. Much like Dredge goes all in on the graveyard, or Burn goes all in on one-time effects to reduce its opponents life total, Affinity goes all in with artifacts. This is what makes linear strategies hard to beat when there are too many of them seeing alot of play in the format (too much specific hate required), and what makes them easy to hate out when there are not that many seeing alot of play in the format.

[Kanti]

Affinity isn't linear? AHAHAHAHAHAHA. Is that a joke? Affinity's strategic focus is smashing through with tons of artifacts, and abusing the interaction between them and it's namesake mechanic.

And no, I didn't make the comparison. You know when you replied to my first post with this "We already have that ringleader: Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas" as your opening sentence? Sorry I took the bait and replied, but don't change the story.

Just like the "results arguement", that is me taking the bait again after you typed "You haven't even tested the very card that everyone else runs to good results and you're wondering why you're having a hard time. ". I simply asked you to show me these results that you speak of. This is the second time you say something and blame me on using it as an arguement. Pretty coy man, pretty coy.

Running 8 0cc creatures without Pest is terrible. Absolutely terrible. You say you gain speed with Memnite but you actually lose it as your deck can't combo somebody out via DotV+Ravager. If you would go back to Pest you probably woudn't lose too much speed at all since Pest is pretty damn good once you make the decision to run Memnite. If you are resolving a DotV you can wait a turn to resolve a Thoughtcast.

Thank you for telling me how to adress the matchups. To bad Spell Pierce is absolute shit compared to Chalice. You say I am losing vs Miracles because my disruption isn't good enough, yet you'd rather have Pierce as disruption over Chalice? Are you kidding me? Pierce is stronger than Chalice? Cmon... Chalice, besides being immensely stronger once resolves, is even an artifact. In Affinity. Cmon.

Anyhow, I've told you I would like to fit a Tezzeret in the deck for UW but I can't really find the room. And seeing as he's only good vs UW I'd be sacrificing other match-ups. Revoker+Chalice can take care of Storm more often than you think, as can O-Ring/Angel+Revoker against SnT. Even taking out 1 Revoker would make me stronger vs Miracles, but weaker versus other decks.

An option would be to replace the MoE in the main with a Tezz, and shave a Revoker in the side, but I'm not really sure that that is correct. Especially since casting Tezz in a Vial build can get to be tough.

[Shawon]

Running 8 0cc creatures without Pest is terrible. Absolutely terrible. You say you gain speed with Memnite but you actually lose it as your deck can't combo somebody out via DotV+Ravager. If you would go back to Pest you probably woudn't lose too much speed at all since Pest is pretty damn good once you make the decision to run Memnite. If you are resolving a DotV you can wait a turn to resolve a Thoughtcast.

This whole paragraph is terrible. Again, you always mention Disciple and Ravager in the same sentence like their conjoined twins. Stop thinking about Ravager for a second. When Ravager + Disciple isn't an available game plan during a game, Disciple is in every way worse than Memnite as Memnite contributes to the synergies of the deck (Opal, Thoughtcast). I care more about consistency than situational explosiveness. I cut Pest for resilience purposes, not out of an issue of speed.

Thank you for telling me how to adress the matchups. To bad Spell Pierce is absolute shit compared to Chalice. You say I am losing vs Miracles because my disruption isn't good enough, yet you'd rather have Pierce as disruption over Chalice? Are you kidding me? Pierce is stronger than Chalice? Cmon... Chalice, besides being immensely stronger once resolves, is even an artifact. In Affinity. Cmon.

Read what I said carefully. Either you're not running Tezz or your disruption isn't good enough. One or the other, possibly both.

No, I'm not kidding. And yes, Spell Pierce is way better than Chalice, unless knowing how to time a counterspell is too difficult for you. You don't need to lock your opponent out of the game since you're an aggro deck. You just need to disrupt them temporarily until you win. And Spell Pierce is excellent disruption because it punishes an opponent for tapping out to answer your threats. It not only counters the answer they were relying on, but it makes them harder to cast another answer by the time they untap. Still think I'm just kidding?

Anyhow, I've told you I would like to fit a Tezzeret in the deck for UW but I can't really find the room. And seeing as he's only good vs UW I'd be sacrificing other match-ups. Revoker+Chalice can take care of Storm more often than you think, as can O-Ring/Angel+Revoker against SnT. Even taking out 1 Revoker would make me stronger vs Miracles, but weaker versus other decks.

Forget your combo matchups, just focus on Miracles, because you're more likely to run into those. I would cut all the Revokers anyway. Revokers are useless post-Terminus and they can be bounced by Jace or surprise-butt-sexed by Snapcaster Mage even if you have Chalice@1 stopping STP.

[Kanti]

Read the opening post of the thread on Disciple. He isn't only good when Ravager is out. He punished Wasteland, allows you to do Vial tricks, he makes it so your opponent can't chump all day when he's on sub-5ish life, he is amazing against Deed, he is a lightning rod for your opponents removal, he makes Wasteland cost 1 life, he can stop an Emrakul attack. His value has diminished since Terminus became the de-facto board sweeper, but he is still damn good. Running Vial ensures you will have a good chance at resolving him against U-decks.

I don't think you are kidding with Pierce, I just think you are delusional, or you just never played Chalice. Chalice is amazing in this format. How many times does Miracles tap-out to answer your threats? I find it to be not that many. And even when they do, and you catch them with Pierce, you are still only countering 1 spell. Compare that to countering 1/4-1/3 of their deck, and helping you with Affinity.

And in a large tournament you are bound to encounter combo. Auto-losing doesn't really happen when you have x4 Revokers and x4 Chalice. The reason why I run them is because they are relevant in almost every single match-up. Ravager makes it so you can actually race combo decks by going all out (swing t2-t3 for 4-7ish damage, without Disciple).

Yes, Revokers are useless post-Terminus, but they make resolving Terminus a nightmare by shutting off SDT. And Jace is usually never going to hit them as you are going to be naming him with a Revoker, after you name SDT. If you fear a chump-blocking Snapcaster coming your way you can just sit back on Revoker and let him act like a Needle. Even if my opp does land a Jace on t4 to bounce my Revoker, I can just re-cast him. And if Forces it then tough luck. The combination of Revoker and Chalice is brutal to UW Tundra control (Blade, and Miracle alike).

I'll be testing cutting the MoE in my main for a Tezz and see how it works out. I hate him in the Mav match-up, and though he's amazing vs RUG and pretty damn good against UW Tundra decks there isn't a reason to test him.

[Hanni]

I'll be testing cutting the MoE in my main for a Tezz and see how it works out. I hate him in the Mav match-up, and though he's amazing vs RUG and pretty damn good against UW Tundra decks there isn't a reason to test him.

If you have a Mox Opal (or other worthless artifact out), Tezz is a 5/5 for 4 at worst that also prevents X damage (if you can't block enough of it, and it goes to Tezz instead of you). Slightly better, it turns 0/2 fliers and 1/1 flying lifelinkers into 5/5 fliers (and lifelink with Skirge), before dying. At best, it's a card advantage engine that is more powerful than Tezzeret (in this deck), and/or can instantly win the game the turn after it comes into play.

I think you got it backwards. He's great against Maverick.

He's awful in the RUG matchup because they can prevent it from coming down with Wasteland/Daze/Pierce, can Stifle it for a big gain of tempo, or can Bolt it if you make a 5/5 (and then swing in the air for 3 with Delver or on the ground for 6 with Goyf).

[Kanti]

You read that wrong, mate. I was talking about MoE being horrible in the Maverick match-up, but amazing against RUG.MoE just gets chumped all day from Mother or Scryb Ranger, and a Mav player can fetch one of those up really easily, and quickly if they want to. He is just BEASTLY vs RUG though, and very good against UW.

Now that we are on the subject though, I don't know if Tezz is that great vs Mav, especially in a Vial build. Remember that they run Waste, and KotR>Waste. This can make resolving him a pain in the ass, especially if you are running Vial.

The way I see it is if a build is running Vial it should probably steer clear of Tezz, passed in the sb, as he can be very difficult to cast with only 21 mana sources, especially considering his UB requirments and the presence of Wasteland in the meta. If you run Drums and SOL lands he becomes very easy to cast, but then you are losing Vial which I'm not really ready to do.

I want to test a split between MoE and Enforcers though, as I'd have some more Vial targets at 3 and probably be better off vs anything but Maverick or Death and Taxes. MoE is usually an all star vs UW, as vs SFM decks he can take out a Bskull outright by virtue of being a huge fucker, and vs Miracles he makes it so you don't have to overcommit to have a heavy board presence.

[Shawon]

Read the opening post of the thread on Disciple. He isn't only good when Ravager is out. He punished Wasteland, allows you to do Vial tricks, he makes it so your opponent can't chump all day when he's on sub-5ish life, he is amazing against Deed, he is a lightning rod for your opponents removal, he makes Wasteland cost 1 life, he can stop an Emrakul attack. His value has diminished since Terminus became the de-facto board sweeper, but he is still damn good. Running Vial ensures you will have a good chance at resolving him against U-decks.

You're overrating Disciple, because he's only amazing in those instances where your opponent is close to lethal. As long as your opponent doesn't die, why should they care about Disciple if an action they take essentially wins them the game? If your opponent is at 10-15 life, they're not going to care about taking 5 as a cost for Annihilator 6... a Deed player doesn't mind losing 5-6 life if it means wiping out your entire board INCLUDING Disciple. Like I said, on its own Disciple is a situational suicide bomber. Key word is situational.

I don't think you are kidding with Pierce, I just think you are delusional, or you just never played Chalice. Chalice is amazing in this format. How many times does Miracles tap-out to answer your threats? I find it to be not that many. And even when they do, and you catch them with Pierce, you are still only countering 1 spell. Compare that to countering 1/4-1/3 of their deck, and helping you with Affinity.

Here's what I"m trying to get at: Chalice doesn't stop Terminus from actually resolving, even if you play it before they land a Top. Furthermore, Miracle decks still keep Jace post-board, and don't forget that Jace can Brainstorm an opening hand Terminus back in the library to Miracle next turn.

And that's if they haven't dropped a Top. Without Mox Opal, your earliest Chalice is on turn 2, which may not even be useful as Miracles will undoubtedly slam a Top on their first turn. Even with Opal, having only 4 Ornithopter significantly decreases your chance of getting two mana on turn 1. (This is one reason why Memnite > Disciple.)

Spell Pierce directly answers Terminus. It also answers Entreat the Angels, and most likely counters it unless they have a Force, because the opponent will never keep mana open while casting Entreat (likely because they don't know you run Spell Pierce). Spell Pierce can counter Moat or Humility. Chalice can't stop directly stop any of the cards I mentioned.

Chalice only stops the small removal (STP) and the card selection, but it doesn't stop the key spells that actually ruin your day. Despite all that, I think Chalice would still be good against Miracles, but I don't like the possibility of Miracles removing it (EE/Disenchant) with no blowback.

[Infinitium]

Eh. Don't forget that should the Miracle player have a hand that enables a turn 3-4 Terminus he will most likely hold any countermagic for your Platings anyway which splash damages any sneaky Pierces something fierce. And if he knows it's coming, resolving what is effectively a 1-mana spell is trivial. Chalice@1 by comparison comes down early and shuts down BS, Top and STP, all of which are spells that helps Miracles stay alive until they can drop their midgame bombs. Also, even if it does get hit by Disenchant post-SB, that's removal that isn't aimed at your Platings. And let's be realistic, Platings along with Nexii is what keeps any build of Affinity in the game post-sweepers.

Also, Affinity isn't really a deck where you can afford to hold back colored mana just in case - especially considering all of your bombs except Plating already cost blue.

As for MoE not being good against Maverick ..what? It's still a Lord first and foremost, even if it cannot attack directly it still helps your little brown men push through/survive pings/whatever. That alone makes it good even disregarding the fact that if it goes unanswered you just win.

[Kanti]

Just like with Disciple and Ravager though, you won't always have a Memnite and Opal. Running Opal with Orni/Skirge still lets you go land, Opal, Vial/Skirge, Frogmite/Disciple. So even when you don't get a Memnite+Opal you can be accelerating with the tons of other cheap cards in your deck. You say not to base a cards value on it's potential with other cards, yet never fail to mention Opal+Memnite whenever you talk of him. I'm not overrating Disciple. Against Emrakul he is really an all out, and obviously this is bad example, but against Deed he is the most amazing card. Blow up all of my board, take 7, and if you aren't dead have fun dealing with my Frogmites and Enforcers. If he doesn't win you the game on the spot he is making it easier to win at a later stage as for 1b mana you did 5-6 damage. That is value, period. Memnite on his own is what? A 1/1 artifact without modular? I'd honestly rather play Arcbound Worker over Memnite.

If you think a Chalice isn't useful on t2 you really just have not played with it.

Sure you can directly answer Terminus, but a lot of times a UW Miracle player can just Plow you death, and use their Snapcasters as chump and/or removal. After you blow a Pierce they are also unlikely to not keep 2 mana open, which is nice since you can potentially slow them down, but it will bite you in the ass when you are really depending on not getting hit by a spell.

You also don't note that I have 4 Revokers, which can be uncounterable with Vial. They deal with resolved tops and Jaces, and E.E.

[Kanti]

Sorry for the doulbe post, damn editing feature.

In my testing Maverick usually just GSZ's a Ranger, and renders my MoE useless. He's the first card I side out against them.

Also, I've been thinking of adding some Nexuses back the the deck, Blinkmoths. I could sub out O-Rings for Angel of Despair in the sb, and cut out some Dens for a Nexus. This will hurt with getting to affinity, and beyond, but it's worth a shot as it is pretty amazing post-sweeper.

[Shawon]

Eh. Don't forget that should the Miracle player have a hand that enables a turn 3-4 Terminus he will most likely hold any countermagic for your Platings anyway which splash damages any sneaky Pierces something fierce.And if he knows it's coming, resolving what is effectively a 1-mana spell is trivial. Chalice@1 by comparison comes down early and shuts down BS, Top and STP, all of which are spells that helps Miracles stay alive until they can drop their midgame bombs. Also, even if it does get hit by Disenchant post-SB, that's removal that isn't aimed at your Platings. And let's be realistic, Platings along with Nexii is what keeps any build of Affinity in the game post-sweepers.

They can sandbag counters, but they likely won't. I guarantee enough pressure to prevent this. Also, Tezzeret post-board. Nexi could be actually good against Miracles, but I don't use them because I like being able to cast Thoughtcast consistently, which is the same reason I cut Sol lands.

Also, Affinity isn't really a deck where you can afford to hold back colored mana just in case - especially considering all of your bombs except Plating already cost blue.

You don't have to hold back every turn, just deploy threats by turn 1-3. Or you could just have leftover mana, which is a thing in this deck after you empty your hand.

As for MoE not being good against Maverick ..what? It's still a Lord first and foremost, even if it cannot attack directly it still helps your little brown men push through/survive pings/whatever. That alone makes it good even disregarding the fact that if it goes unanswered you just win.

If unanswered (looks at STP, Pridemage, Mother of Runes, Scryb Ranger, and maybe Krosan Grip). I think I can say Kanti and I both agree on MoE not being so hot in the Mav matchup. You have better cards to run in the board, be it Revoker if you're Kanti or Jitte if you're me.

Just like with Disciple and Ravager though, you won't always have a Memnite and Opal. Running Opal with Orni/Skirge still lets you go land, Opal, Vial/Skirge, Frogmite/Disciple. So even when you don't get a Memnite+Opal you can be accelerating with the tons of other cheap cards in your deck. You say not to base a cards value on it's potential with other cards, yet never fail to mention Opal+Memnite whenever you talk of him. I'm not overrating Disciple. Against Emrakul he is really an all out, and obviously this is bad example, but against Deed he is the most amazing card. Blow up all of my board, take 7, and if you aren't dead have fun dealing with my Frogmites and Enforcers. If he doesn't win you the game on the spot he is making it easier to win at a later stage as for 1b mana you did 5-6 damage. That is value, period. Memnite on his own is what? A 1/1 artifact without modular? I'd honestly rather play Arcbound Worker over Memnite.

It's not just Mox Opal that benefits from Memnite. It's practically every other card in the deck, especially Frogmite and Myr Enforcer and Thoughtcast.

Sure you can directly answer Terminus, but a lot of times a UW Miracle player can just Plow you death, and use their Snapcasters as chump and/or removal. After you blow a Pierce they are also unlikely to not keep 2 mana open, which is nice since you can potentially slow them down, but it will bite you in the ass when you are really depending on not getting hit by a spell.

"Plowing us to death" is less likely to happen than seeing Terminus, so I'd rather anticipate that. Anyway, don't both of us already run Champ and Plating?

If I can resolve a Spell Pierce once, that is usually all I need to win the game.