I'm against Liliana in this deck because the discard is symmetrical. I like Liliana in Loam decks, and I even like her in Pox decks. In here, I just don't see why you'd run her over more efficient options.
Regarding the Planeswalker issue, I agree that Garruk is better... but I'm talkin big boy Garruk (Garruk, Primal Hunter). If you're running GSZ/Arbor/mana dorks, ramping up to 5 mana shouldn't be a problem in the matchups where you want Planeswalkers, and his effects are far more devastating (in an aggro deck) than any other Planeswalker printed, including Jace TMS.
@hanni
I don't understand, the last list you posted had 22 lands and no basics (no mox/acceleration also). And you want a 5 cmc planeswalker, and abusing double blacks and double greens.
Garruk relentless provides removal (yeah, I'm riding on the "no permantens stay on that side of the board" train), provides a stream of beaters, and if he is flipped, he is simply fantastic. 1/1 deathtouch critters, mini-survival, and overrun. He is also easy to cast: only one green mana.
I do not need to argue about liliana. Read a few pages back and you'll see the discard is not SO symmetrical. Also, free edicts
No no, you misunderstand me. I was talkin about Rock in general, not the list I posted. Garruk doesn't fit into my list at all. I was talkin about Maverick/b, or in other words, the lists with GSZ and Arbor/mana dorks.
I don' think the Maverick/b lists can reliably get to 5 mana with 3 of it being green in any reasonable amount of time...As awesome as dumping 3/3's, 6/6's and drawing tons of cards would be. I just do not think it is feasible.
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
p.s. I added the scryb ranger to my list as a flyer, delver blocker, and shaman untapper. I burned out a jace player in two turns out of nowhere...
play deathrite shaman. pass turn.
my turn: scryb ranger.
drain for four pass turn.
drain for two.
drain for four, gg?
Awesome.
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
I'm not sure if shaman's ability can be redirected to a planesalker, sice it says "each opp loses 2 life" rather than "this deals 2 dmg to target opp"
frog, I understand your list now, it's basically maverick with black. Can't you fit discards in? I personally love them: they give you valuable information.
Ok reviewing the post for mistakes (posting from cellphone) i understand what you did with shaman.
quite intresting move with shaman, actually this was the last drop needed in the barrel for him to really catch my attention as i did not even think of the interaction between shaman and ranger
awesome interaction and maybe shaman is just the thing i was looking for, because in heavy attrition battles i hoped for a little bit of reach, and this little guy may provide this, plus he would help against goblins, a matchups i somehow still struggle (my list should be really fine against that deck, maybe its just my bad luck)
How many Scryb Ranger are you running?
I think Deathrite Shaman is an interesting card, for sure. But, I can't see myself running more than one, possibly two. Why?
1) It's a bit different than Ooze, since you get value out of mucking instants and sorceries beyond their ability to be flashbacked by Snapcaster Mage. This is the main reason I like him, in addition to the mana ability. Early on, this mana ability is pretty god awful, especially if you're trying to power up your own Knight and they don't drop many lands in the bin.
2) How many do you run to achieve maximal value out of this card? I can foresee a cool Shaman build, but what are you cutting to fit this card in? In my mind, something like 1-2 Scryb Ranger and 1-2 Deathrite Shaman seems like a cool thing, considering the ability to also get greasy with Ranger and Knight. However, what are you removing? It seems like at that point, you're cutting Maelstrom Pulses (so your curve comes down) or you're cutting discard and other stuff. This is not where I personally want to be in a meta with a combo presence. The ability to durdle with Shaman and make them lose life without having to enter combat is definitely a thing, I would agree.
I think if you wanted to run Shaman, you should basically be running:
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
3 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
(you may want to run another Fetchland just in case, but whatever)
23
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Scryb Ranger
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
18
4 Open (Equipment? Planeswalker? Discard?)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Sylvan Library
Basically, you cut discard and a Qasali for your new creature package, which I definitely think might not be bad. I just don't want to water down either package to the point where neither is effective; I'd much rather have either one or the other. For me, I wouldn't want to now just jam 1 Scryb Ranger and 1 Deathrite Shaman and take out 2 random cards because at that point, it's probably not going to work out. I agree Scryb is good, I've played him in Maverick, but is that what we're going for? Pro-blue is definitely a thing, and so is Flash in, untap big guy, block your dude, or crazy combat tricks with him and Tracker.
I guess is just depends on what you want to do. I think this would be better in a creature-based meta, especially concerning the Scrybs, but discard can be VERY good as well.
-Matt
Why do I insist in running at least 6 discard spells? (I was running 8 before)
Because it DOES make the combo match a lot easier. A correct discard on turn 1 followed by a goyf immediately rises a red flag for the combo player. It also makes the burn match winnable. Also, I don't run thalia, gaddok, etc, and don't miss them.
Wich is to say, I truly respect the usefulness of Shaman, but he is incompatible with things like goyf for example. Also, there is not enough room for the discard spells. And we'll need something big to put quickly on the field (we want to end the game fast, I assume). That's a lot of slots (and a turn 2 reliquary ramped by shaman is as useful as a glory seeker or a grizzly bear).
If we have to rely in tricks like taxing and forbiddance (like thalia and teeg) to get around combo and control, we should drop the black altogether, and go full gw. W'ell get more value from a build that relies more in creatures that way, if that is the premise of the deck.
I know I am very stubborn toobut right now I'm very happy with my list. Tomorrow is going to be the great day, so wish me well!
You sound like me when I was arguing the validity of goyf+discard over SFM against combo decks. I feel that reanimate/sneak and show/storm was everywhere at that time. Now with the rise of blue decks again you really have less combo decks to fight against.
I am losing my previous combo plan but I play teeg and 4x GSZ along with 4 thoughtsieze and 4 wasteland( and 3 Lilliana) so the combo matchup is more uphill than play discard and goyf + pray. Post board I'm picking up the ability to play cabal therapy with my increased creature count, which I think is the best anti combo option that this deck has.
Finally, as my list being maverick/b, I started off with 3 life from the loams and 4 mox diamonds and slowly arrived to where I am now. I have ways played Lilliana over pulse/vindicate as to always have versatile answers and threats. The absurdity of GSZ made me drop loams and the brokenness of deathrite shaman has made me leave mox diamonds out of my 75.
Scryb ranger is just being tested as a one of utility creature with rediculous amounts of synergy with the rest of the deck, protecting forests/Merfolk or delved blocker/jace killer/knight untapper/shaman untapper/makes surprise blockers theist goes on for just 1G.
Finally, I do not like shaman with goyf due to the fact that he really wants the ability to pick up equipment and swing and that he helps the game go longer with life gain/life loss/acceleration. He does not play bad with knight of the reliquary. As I have said before. Your knight will always be bigger than their knight, and no other creature will be bigger than your knight. In most match ups as 7/7 is just as big as a 9/9 especially with shaman life drain.
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
I was thinking the same thing (I just trimmed your quote so my post looked cleaner.) If someone really wants to play 4x Deathrite Shaman, then the number of Scryb Ranger would have to be at least one, probably more to gain value. Then you'd have to make sure that there was a way to make Ranger/Shaman into a valid threat: enter Sword of A&B, etc, probably SFM. It's a different setup, but possibly good.Originally Posted by sdematt
For me, I'll be playing one Deathrite Shaman with GSZ and squeezing in a Scryb Ranger. Ranger has always been decent with Knight of the Reliquary (fetch Horizon Canopy/Wasteland, crack it, untap with Scryb for a bigger knight, profit.)
My list is far from stock, so I don't want to derail the thread by posting it. I just wanted to pipe in that Deathrite Shaman and Scryb Ranger, along with a set of Knights, are great tech for Rock right now with GSZ.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
All we do is post different lists and argue about them! Bring it on!
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
I played against RUG-Delver with a set of shamans and he was really really nice. He kept them away from having threshold, shrink their goyfs and he gives 2 life or deals two damage which can help a lot.
The problem i have is that i miss creatures. Creatures like Goyf and Knight. The Shaman is really really good but he can shrink our creatures too. And only playing knight as a beater is definitely to less.
What good beaters can we add? I miss some
Wow, I tried to post something a few minutes ago, but either this site has gone mad os my cel is on strike.
Anyway, frog: plan vs combo is not discard+goyf+pray. I DO run lilianas, 6 discards pre-board and 9 post.
I understand and respect your build, but I am very comfortable with mine. Tomorrow I'll finally get my gsz's and a couple shamans as well, I may spend some time testing. But this is not going to happen in this weekend.
Differences aside, I think that most The Rock build are in a good moment right now. We just have to tweak for each meta, but the shell is basically the same, I think
At first, I was apart of the group that thought Deathrite Shaman, if playable at all, should be no more than a 2-of. The more I keep thinking about it though, the more I really think Deathrite Shaman should be the go-to mana dork (for the versions that want mana dorks).
The thing is, how often do you guys really use your mana dorks? Turn 2, turn 3, maybe turn 4? Point is, you only use the mana ability at the beginning of the game. You no longer need the excess mana after the early game. During the early game, he's tapping for any color of mana (which is huge), and he's castable from both a black or green mana source (less huge, but still awesome). Very few decks in the format don't run fetchlands. This deck can easily run more fetchlands to adequately support him, and should be doing so anyways for Knight of the Reliquary (why 8 is the established amount for decks with Knight is beyond me). Sure, he shrinks your Knights a little... but only when you're opponent isn't giving him any food. He's also great vs other decks with Knight. A few p/t off Knight can definitely hurt us, but the extra fetchlands can/will compensate.I think Deathrite Shaman is an interesting card, for sure. But, I can't see myself running more than one, possibly two. Why?
1) It's a bit different than Ooze, since you get value out of mucking instants and sorceries beyond their ability to be flashbacked by Snapcaster Mage. This is the main reason I like him, in addition to the mana ability. Early on, this mana ability is pretty god awful, especially if you're trying to power up your own Knight and they don't drop many lands in the bin.
2) How many do you run to achieve maximal value out of this card? I can foresee a cool Shaman build, but what are you cutting to fit this card in? In my mind, something like 1-2 Scryb Ranger and 1-2 Deathrite Shaman seems like a cool thing, considering the ability to also get greasy with Ranger and Knight. However, what are you removing? It seems like at that point, you're cutting Maelstrom Pulses (so your curve comes down) or you're cutting discard and other stuff. This is not where I personally want to be in a meta with a combo presence. The ability to durdle with Shaman and make them lose life without having to enter combat is definitely a thing, I would agree.
As a mana dork, he's a little more conditional than Birds of Paradise, sure. There's a little bit of anti-synergy with Knight, sure. Like I said before though, you only want to see mana dorks at the very beginning of the game. Being bad in multiples is mostly irrelevant, because other mana dorks are bad in multiples, too (meaning you rarely need more than 1). I can't think of too many times where I want to drop a turn 1 mana dork, followed by a turn 2 mana dork. Once you hit enough land drops and have depleted your hand enough, you no longer need the accel.
This is where Deathrite Shaman shines. You don't want to topdeck a Birds of Paradise on turns 3 or 4... it's completely worthless. You don't want to topdeck a Hierarch on turns 3 or 4... it's a 0/1 on defense, a 1/2 on offense, and Exalted only matters if you swing with only 1 creature, in a deck full of creatures. But Deathrite Shaman isn't just a mana dork. The 1/2 body is lackluster, but it can still pick up equipment... but the other abilities are simply phenomenal. The Rock has always had a rather rough time of it against aggressive decks like fast Zoo, Sligh, and Burn. Exiling creatures for lifegain is perfect there. This deck has no use for sorceries or instants in the graveyard, besides having 1 of each for Tarmogoyf. 2 damage of lifeloss, without using the red zone... that's impressive. Not quite Lavamancer impressive, but we're talking about a frickin mana dork here. This guy is a mana dork that you actually don't mind drawing in the midgame, because he's not just a mana dork. The fact that the effects of these abilities come at the cost of exiling cards from the graveyard? Holy effing shit. You wanted to flashback that Swords to Plowshares and 2-for-1 me? Sorry dude. You wanted 7 cards for Mongoose? Sorry dude. Lands for your Knight? Sorry dude. His ability forces him to tap down, but rightfully so... these are additional effects on your 1cc mana dork.
This is also what makes him good in multiples. You're not eating everything in the graveyards with this guy right away. Having two activating every turn isn't stealing each others resources right away. The fact that there are so many matchups where you actually want these effects...
He's easily a 4-of IMO (for decks that want mana dorks).
This also leads me to question the validity of Scavenging Ooze now. Sure, Ooze is a fantastic card that can grow to large sizes after a ton of additional mana investment, and gain you some life in the process. He only costs 2 mana too, but since most decks run him as a 2-of, he actually costs 3 mana (w/ GSZ). So you're spending 5 mana to get a 4/4 Ooze (albeit split over multiple turns in most cases), where you could have simply spent 2 mana on a 4/5 Tarmogoyf. And when your using mana to exile an instant or sorcery instead to prevent some flashback shenanigans, he's not even growing at all. I'm not trying to say he's a bad card; I'm simply trying to point out some flaws. Why? Because I'd much rather run 4 Deathrite Shaman instead.
This little gem is an uncut diamond right now, but I expect him to shine as more and more people actually start using him (and finding out how good he really is). I want to tweak my list a bit more before I post it, but I'll get around to it at some point. I still prefer Deadguy Rock better as a personal preference (the list I posted before with a shitload of discard + removal + fat asses), but I'm excited about Shaman enough to work on my other various Rock lists that I have sitting around on MWS collecting dust.
You should still be running knights of the reliquary at te minimum. I have been running SFM again with equipment to bulk up my 2/1 and 1/2 army of dorks.
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
So I'm on board. Deathrite Shaman seems to be shaping up into a really really good card for black decks. I've been play testing as much as possible and went from 4 to a 3 of. So far I've changed list several times to see what's best but I must say all my matches have been close; I never once got blown out of a game. He really shines as a way to abuse powerful cards in the black color pie (vindicate has been insane). Reason for going down to 3 btw is due to running 2 GSZ and 1 Arbor so I felt it unnecessary to have 4. Shaman seems like it will make an impact once we get the card figured out, as someone said it's an uncut diamond! Also I've played black decks(B/w - B/w/g) with Chrome/Diamond and one thing I always hate was the card disadvantage Shaman seems to make this disappear.
Ugr Canadian Threshold
Bgw Junk
Just as an aside, I (and likely others) came across the interaction of Life from the Loam + Dryad Arbor + Lotleth Troll. This might have a use in Loam Rock builds, especially when used with cycle lands to repeatedly grow the Troll over a turn while drawing cards through Loam.
That, and Vengevine and a bunch of Deathrite Shamans.
-Matt
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