If want to know more about how that works I'd read up on Athens BlueOriginally Posted by Poron
funny report but I can't see the connection with our deck.. :|
opponent's CB is something that totally wrecks us. just 1-2cc
Who plays CB nowdays? we and Miracle. what about Spell Snare then? Miracle doesn't see Spell Pierce as a threath.
it should be 2x each, imho
MD Snares sounds wrong. Snare is narrow, Pierce covers lots of ground. I wouldn't say that Miracles doesn't care about Pierce. Pierce will stop their Top, CB, Jace, Entreat the Angels, etc. unless they wait until they have 2 extra mana up (which would be a massive tempo boost for you). I understand that in the late game they could be dead, but Miracles still plays expensive cards in terms of CMC (Jace/Entreat). I wouldn't make MD changes just because of this one MU, anyway, and even if you were to, I would just add the 4th Pierce rather than add Snares. I agree that Miracles can be a very awkward matchup, since you both can just counter or invalidate each-other's win-cons.
Pierce would definitely be better than Snare. Although, I think counterspells are generally pretty bad in this deck. It has the feel of a more permanent-based approach. They definitely can be good, but not in most matches. I've been playing this deck for about a week or so, and have been tweaking as I've been going. I'd like to share what I've landed on so far, because I am having a lot of success with it.
// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [B] Tundra
3 [UNH] Island
2 [UNH] Plains
2 [TE] Ancient Tomb
2 [EX] City of Traitors
1 [MR] Seat of the Synod
// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [AL] Helm of Obedience
4 [RTR] Rest in Peace
4 [MR] Talisman of Progress
3 [US] Energy Field
2 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
1 [RTR] Detention Sphere
2 [AVR] Terminus
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 2 [AVR] Terminus
SB: 2 [WL] Aura of Silence
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 2 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 1 [MI] Cursed Totem
SB: 2 [RTR] Supreme Verdict
Here are some random thoughts I've had while playing. Other UW decks are bad match-ups. Miracles has beat me a majority of the time, and Goblins can be rough without Swords to stop an early Lackey. Although, I think Energy Field is a good card in a majority of the matches. I'm not sure why all the hate on it. It will buy you time, or get a counter out of their hand. In can also just beat some decks if you don't let them Wasteland you. Admittedly, not the easiest thing to control. But decks like Merfolk and Goblins will use their Wastelands early, especially if they have Vial, so it's not as much of a worry against those decks as Maverick. I haven't played Mav very much, so I'm not sure what needs to be changed for that pairing. All I can say is I won easily with a combo oriented draw. I'll also say Cursed Totem is very harsh for them and protects your combo from Pridemage like a champ.
Basically, my sb idea for some DtB go like this.
Goblins: -4 Force of Will, +2 Terminus, +2 Supreme Verdict
Maverick: -4 Force of Will, -1 Jace, +2 Terminus, +2 Supreme Verdict, +1 Cursed Totem
RUG: -4 Force of Will, -1 Energy Field, -1 Bridge, +2 Terminus, +2 Supreme Verdict, +2 Spell Pierce
Miracle: -2 Terminus, -2 Energy Field, -1 Bridge, +3 Counterbalance, +2 Spell Pierce
Blade Control: Dunno, never played it... I'd want more creature removal than Miracle, but something close to that.
Omniscience: -4 Talisman, -2 Terminus, -2 Energy Field, -1 Bridge, +3 Counterbalance, +2 Aura of Silence, +2 Spell Pierce, +2 Flusterstorm
Sneak Attack: -4 Talisman, -2 Terminus, -2 Energy Field, -1 Bridge, +3 Counterbalance, +2 Aura of Silence, +2 Spell Pierce, +1 Flusterstorm, +1 Pithing Needle
Reasoning.
Goblins: I want to deal with the board more than the stack.
Maverick: Same.
RUG: Card disadvantage is terrible against this deck, and I already have Tutor. When they get ahead, you lose. Besides only their counters are good enough to Force.
Miracle: WE have to be aggressive here. It's almost like we have to out-tempo them with our counters, or they'll take over.
Blade: They're more aggressive, so removal would need to stay in.
Omni: The Talisman can be pretty slow, while this match-up isn't. Leave in Bridge to try to protect from Emrakul, and Energy Field for the Grapeshot kill.
Sneak Attack: Take out Energy Field because it sucks against Emrakul.
These are all pretty initial thoughts, but I have been winning a lot with this list online. It's definitely a weird deck to play, because most cards are completely irrelevant against us. There are very few answers to enchantments being played, and I really like taking advantage of little niches like that. While playing, I let a lot of stuff through to clear it out with Terminus, or lock them down with Bridge or Field, even while their board is full of guys. Anyways, thoughts?
Last edited by igri_is_a_bk; 10-16-2012 at 02:07 PM.
Its a counter based blue deck that ran Energy Field and Jace, the Mind Sculptor. The question was how has Jace worked in this deck, and previously I talked about how it doesn't make much sense.
It looks like i'm wrong because the two were run in Athens Blue. Perhaps that write-up doesn't give you too much information, but I'm sure you can Google it to find out why it did work, and what were the other keys to it functioning. I see Shackles in their list. You have to ask yourself what role did Shackles play in their list, and what is our upgrade.
Reading more about Athens Blue will only make this deck better.
I appreciate the work and detail. I have to ask though with all the issues with tribal what does this list have over an enchantress based list?
The below list wrecks Gobos and folks, and cares very little about Miracles.
Admittedly, Maverick is still only even to ever so slightly favorable. Stick a Pithing Needle post board you win.
Here is a list I'm rocking now:
3 Solitary Confinement
2 Wheel of Sun and Moon
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Energy Field
3 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Elephant Grass
4 Argothian Enchantress
3 Mirri's Guile
2 Sterling Grove
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
3 Rest in Peace
1 Savannah
4 Misty Rainforest
7 Forest
2 Forbidden Orchard
2 Karakas
1 Island
2 Serra's Sanctum
Sideboard:
3 Choke
4 Carpet of Flowers
1 Defense of the Heart
2 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Sterling Grove
This list has more ramp, more resiliency, more damage hate, more attack hate, more draw, and more card selection. What do you gain from a blue based control list vs. this?
Freggle, Elephant Grass looks like overkill. You've already got Solitary Confinement AND Energy Field plus tons and tons of draw.
I would go
-4 Elephant Grass
-1 Emrakul
-1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
+1 Helm of Obedience
+1 Wild Growth
+1 Rest In Peace
+1 Sterling Grove
+2 anything
Emrakul seems like a mediocre way to stop yourself from decking due to the lack of synergy with RiP and Emrakul will exile itself.
Greenpoe Thank you for your feedback. It's not my intention to derail this thread with an enchantress list. That is obviously not what the OP intended. It was to pose a question to make this deck better, or help me understand what I'm missing.
I have a thread for the enchantress concept here. I desperately need to update it and I intend to this week. (I have been busy with school and work as of late)
I would recommend that all feedback goes there to not muddle this thread.
I will answer your question here though.
Elephant Grass may appear to be overkill, but it is not. Elephant Grass gives this deck a tempo gain against sleigh and RUG like decks when an Energy Field can not be found or a Confinement lock formed. It is also crucial vs. black based discard strategies where redundancy is key, and grass completely locks them out. Also, it's aCC enchantment the key cost to make the draw engine explosive, and that should never be overlooked. In other words that is a digging CC. Later when you have your lock down it's just an Ancestral Recall that stays for an extra turn.
Wheel of Sun and Moon is a win condition that happens to stabilize Energy Field well, and can be dropped under Teeg. (you don't draw out your opponent does.)
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn is a fail safe win condition. When all else fails Emrakul. His reshuffle is nice from time to time, but his annihilator, extra turn and 15 flying damage is better. He is also good against Maverick when I bring in Defense of the Heart for fast wins.
Come join us in the other thread sometime.
I should preface most of these points by saying that I play three Enlightened Tutor, which increases my numbers, but I'm only going to look at hard copies of cards.
You play nine ramp cards (4 Sprawl, 3 Growth, 2 Sanctum) and I play eight (2 Tomb, 2 City, 4 Talisman). So yeah.
How? I play four Helm and four RiP, plus four FoW. You have two Sterling Grove for your three RiP, and only one Helm. Plus one back up win-con in Sigil. My deck is denser with ways-to-win.
I believe you are addressing your three Confinements and four Fields to my three Fields. Clearly your deck is going to romp aggro compared to mine, but that doesn't mean it's overall stronger.
Basically the same point as above, right? Toss in Elephant Grass for you and Bridge, Terminus, and Jace for me.
Now this is just wrong. You are dependent on an Enchantress effect resolving, of which you have eight, and one GSZ. I have four Top, four Brainstorm, three Tutor, and three Jace. My cards are just better on their own, which means off the top.
Same as above, but you also have Mirri's Guile. I still have more, though. If you toss in Sterling Grove, we tie at 14 cards each.
My version aims for closer to a 50% match up against more decks than yours. That's the biggest advantage. I also can tell it's faster than your version, because there's no way you assemble the combo nearly as fast as I can. You play one Helm and have no way to tutor for it, which is a major concern when looking over your list. My list also plays more solid cards, where yours is definitely a combo. You'll have a harder time rebuilding if shit hits the fan than I will. I definitely will try yours out with my own numbers. I suggest you try something similar with mine. It's hard to argue against a deck using anything besides numbers until you actually play it.
This is very true, and I will. My goal wasn't to blow you up by any means it was to ask questions to make both strategies better.
For what it is worth if you intend to try the enchantress list there are 4 win conditions:
-Emrakul
-Sigil
-Helm
-Wheel (draw out)
On all the other points it semantics.
Resiliency: I find the more redundant a deck is the more resilient it is. I felt that this list was more redundant on damage hate, and can bounce back easily from a wall of counters or discard disruption.
Damage Hate: I don't think that makes it empirically stronger than your list. (It should be known I like your list) but it is more redundant.
Attack Hate: I did mean Elephant Grass, and I was wrong.
Draw: I felt the same way you did about Enchantress before I really played this list (or versions close to it) for the past half of the year. Enchantress lists with a full set of Argothians, Pressences, a GSZ and a guile. Will have the tools to push through MOST counter hate, or discard hate. In other words unless it's not your day (like any deck) you are sticking an enchantress. ...and the draw gets out of control fast.
Selection: I was thinking Guile and thinking once per turn, but overlooked Jace. This is slightly in your favor.
50% assessment: G1 yes. Counters give you a lot. G2 & 3 for me that is still up in the air.
If you are serious about trying this deck there are a LOT of nuances to it. I will try and type it up this week in the other thread. You may know them, but they can easily be overlooked.
Keep up the good work. I like where you are going, I just like asking questions because I learn more that way. Like overlooking Jace as card selection. The enchantress list is not theory-craft. I do play it, and I have been doing well with it.
Find some of your sb plan strange:
Goblin: Rather save Force of Will then Jace, TMS. One more answer to there early threats and the long game is yours anyway.
Maverick: Removing the Detention Sphere just fell bad. Your only answer to Teeg.
Miracle Why sb out Detention Sphere? Can take ETA or Jace. Must be better then Pithing Needle. What do you wanna namn? Sensei or Jace?
Omniscience/Sneak Attack: Ones again why Detention Sphere? "D-Sphere can be good against SnT, but that's too random so I take it out." This dasent make sense. Yeah its random so what? Its still a great card. And can be very good to play Enlightened Tutor for when u have CB in play to counter SaT. Against Omniscience maybe take out 1 Energy Field.
Talisman of Progress: What do your think about it?
Maverick isn't a matchup is a massacre. 4x Field + 4xPorphyry Nodes...
they don't even know what to target anymore. Overall with 1Pithing Needle MD and other 2 SB (Qasali Pridemage and other stuff)
Yeah, thanks for the sideboard suggestions. My card choices were right once, but I couldn't remember how I was sb'ing. Mostly bc I only get to play game ones normally. What I said was definitely all over the place. I agree with everything you suggested, except FoW against Goblins. When you have 4 Terminus, 2 Supreme Verdict, 3 Energy Field, 2 Ensnaring Bridge, and 3 Enlightened Tutor for games two and three, you don't really care about countering anything.
Sadly, I don't get to play many sb games, because people usually quit after losing game one. But, I did change up quite a few things with my sb strategy. I edited the post to reflect the changes. Basically, I was wrong with about half of what I said. I won't post more sb stuff until I play the deck quite a bit more. Going forward, I'm leaving in at least one Energy Field and at least one Ensnaring Bridge for most match-ups. Just because I play Tutor, and they can each randomly be life-savers.
Talisman is absolutely great, and I think is necessary for this deck to get the mana it needs. Wasteland will do its best to stop you from getting to four, but sol lands and Talisman battle that very well. Not sure if the CoT should be Tombs though.
First of all either way you sb against Goblin you are a head w or wo FoW.
Rest in Peace and Energy Field is the way to beat Goblins with no answer to it, atleist the current version. And with as many of each you play that what you should try to assemble. And every other cards is just there to buy time or find the cards. Thats why you should keep FoW in so you maybe can stop a Goblin Lackey or Aether Vial start.
My sb plan with your deck against Goblin would be:
-4 Talisman of Progress -2 Helm of Obedience + 2 Terminus + 1 Pithing Needle + 2 Supreme Verdict + 1 Counterbalance (+1 Spell Pierce on play)
Maybe keep one more Helm in and skip the last card, that is not spec good but a blue card for FoW.
I take out 2 Helm because when you get RIP and EF you get all the time you need to win. Talisman's point I guess is to speed up Helm/Rip combo but thats not needed any more so you can take them out.
Again, I don't see why you're making strategies for straight goblin when all you have to do is land a Energy Field and watch him cry until you hardcast a Rest in Peace and he scoops...
he packs blasts and Krosan Grips? well you run 4 of each piece
I am not sure if you are asking me but:
Dasent matter how big advantage you have over a deck you should always sb optimal.
Would say the same. Sure goblin get more game vs helm/rip but at the same time that slows him down. And helm/rip have answers to the goblin game plan aswell. The only big diffrent is your playing strategies should be more on the safe side and not as straight forwards as before.
Bringing in more Helms will not help against Krosan Grip because RIP is the weak part.
Another #1 finish for RIP Combo.
I think the MD Luminarch Ascension is a bit overdone.
Is it time that someone takes this deck to some of the bigger tournaments?
EDIT:
My current 75:
3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
1 Back to Basics
2 Detention Sphere
4 Energy Field
4 Rest in Peace
4 Counterbalance
1 Pithing Needle
2 Porphyry Nodes
2 Helm of Obedience
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Marsh Flats
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
2 Plains
2 Tundra
8 Island
1 Karakas
SIDEBOARD
1 Pithing Needle
1 Humility
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Arcane Laboratory
1 Detention Sphere
3 Flusterstorm
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Luminarch Ascension
3 Swords to Plowshares
Mainboard changes: -1 Seat of the Synod +1 Fetchland
Sideboard changes: -1 Pithing Needle, -1 Porphyry Nodes, +1 Flusterstorm, +1 Oblivion Ring
Mainboard change for some more resilience to landhate. Maybe the extra fetch should be an Island.
Sideboard changes to have a better game vs discard and storm. Also the 4th permanent removal in the way of Oblivion Ring to remove pesky permanents.
Still, not playing maindeck Plowshares feels strange, though I don't miss them.
Any thoughts?
I like igri's version a lot. much less controllish than ours (but all the big pieces are there too) and much more reliable to close faster the match.
it goes faster to 5 mana and it draws faster an Helm.
Perhaps we should just focus on the combo leaving the opponent free di whip us with the critters.. we just need to avoid his counters/disruptions
his list must focus on SB much more than ours but can also win way faster. important point
like this. just at this point I'd try a more staxy version (with CotV@1) and obv without BS, ST and ET. a turn 1 Chalice still grants you 10+ turns tempo
This deck cannot beat any GB variant, which sucks soooo much because everybody is drooling over Abrupt Decay right now. I can't believe I've been paired against GB(x) three times in a row, but I've lost them all. I mean... Thoughtseize, IoK, Therapy, Hymn, Decay, Pulse, Deed? I guess GB was built to beat UW, so it is what it is. In fact, I think it's a lost cause of a match up, and not worth warping our deck to try a turnaround.
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