[Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

[Gaka]

So, has anyone made experiences with deathrite shaman and/or abrupt decay? I agressivly made room for deathrite shaman maindeck and run two decays sideboard. I also added an extra Bayou. I am not underwhlemed by deathrite shaman´s performance, but i think four of them is too much. 2-3 will feel better, especially because it makes room for abrupt decay maindeck, which was a hammer everytime i drew it.

My observation was, that i often couldnt decide weather to play Shaman or ts/inqui T1, when I had cc3 spells in my hand. Another hard decision was, if I should keep my hand with shaman and chrome mox. Felt a bit like too much mana acceleration.
On the other hand i had some sweet moments with shaman as well. Against graveyard-related decks it´s a gift. Also, Goyfs and KotRs don´t really see much land against that guy. I also had two matches in which he slowly beat my opponent´s healthpool after ensnaring bridge stalled me.
Abrupt decay saw more game time then other cards in my sideboard. Which is why I look for a maindeck spot for it. CB-players cry, its useful against fast aggro decks and controlly decks in general don´t like it.

Any thoughts on this?

I've had the same basic experiences as you. I run 3 Deathrites and 2 Decays main, with a Pernicious Deed Side, as a good bonus for the barely green splash.

I tried the deck with moxen and without, thinking that deathrites would let me skimp out on mana for business. Which of course turned out to be bull. I'm totally fine with 3 deathrites, 2 moxen for mana acceleration, and I upped my fetchland count to improve both my manabase (splashing for two bayous) and deathrites.

I've ditched the bitterblosssoms, which I have always been 50/50 on. Sometimes they're amazing, and other times they're crap. It's looking more and more like a sideboard card, but it's not worthy of that. So let's just get rid of them altogether.

Versus graveyard decks (loam, dredge, comes to mind) deathrite suddenly turns from a black manadork into your wincon. It's so good I can't begin to describe how effective it is to shut off loam's loaming, and dredge falters when I'm eating at the dredgers, punishing them for a slow hand that only gets better post board.

In short, I love deathrite, and decays make a lot of iffy matchups much, much better.

[paladin3056]

I've had the same basic experiences as you. I run 3 Deathrites and 2 Decays main, with a Pernicious Deed Side, as a good bonus for the barely green splash.

I tried the deck with moxen and without, thinking that deathrites would let me skimp out on mana for business. Which of course turned out to be bull. I'm totally fine with 3 deathrites, 2 moxen for mana acceleration, and I upped my fetchland count to improve both my manabase (splashing for two bayous) and deathrites.

I've ditched the bitterblosssoms, which I have always been 50/50 on. Sometimes they're amazing, and other times they're crap. It's looking more and more like a sideboard card, but it's not worthy of that. So let's just get rid of them altogether.

Versus graveyard decks (loam, dredge, comes to mind) deathrite suddenly turns from a black manadork into your wincon. It's so good I can't begin to describe how effective it is to shut off loam's loaming, and dredge falters when I'm eating at the dredgers, punishing them for a slow hand that only gets better post board.

In short, I love deathrite, and decays make a lot of iffy matchups much, much better.

I run 4 Deathrites and 3 Decays (no Chrome Mox, can't justify the loss of CA from it), having multiples of Deathrites is not bad at all, I had this game against Merfolk with his GY full of creatures and some instants and sorceries and I have 3 Deathrites in play, and him with LoA and a few merfolks. I had 2 Deathrites gaining me life and 1 shocking him each turn and won via deathrites killing him, it was mazing how he can affect the game state. It is also good against Dredge in the 1st game which would have been an auto loose for us, but deathrite changed it all, its an easy win if your opponent can't dredge fast enough. Against RU Delver it was a hit, 1st turn Deathrite, 2nd turn Thoughtseize SFM, 3rd turn Hymn and SFM into jitte/Batterskull can stop it in its tracks, thus an unanswered Deathrite can boost out our early game a whole lot, even hardcasting a batterskull or equipping into it was even possible in this deck. The only decks which this doesn't do much is combo decks, currently looking into getting more discard into the deck as fodder for Deathrite, I am even considering Nezumi Shortfang, instant discard and can transform into a rack on legs is not a bad option.

I think Chrome Mox and Deathrite Shaman is lot of acceleration, I would rather go into Deathrite and drop chrome mox because top decking into Deathrite is a whole lot better than top decking into a chrome mox since it can do much more

[Wilkin]

IMHO, Deathrite Shaman is bad vs dredge. Milling one card a turn (and not even on the turn you cast him) is usually way too slow vs Dredge.

Even Extraction and Extirpate are only ok cards but they are at least instant speed. But Deathrite is too slow IMO. If you are going to splash green, I'd much rather go for Scavenging Ooze or Knight of the Reliquary. Creatures that are beaters but can also affect the graveyard.

Shaman might me alright vs. say a Threshold deck (although i doubt it) or say an Aggro loam deck. But honestly the card from the new set that is awesome is Rest in Peace. Not only does it nuke both graveyards but further cards can't enter the graveyard. That is far better against Dredge, Reanimator, Thopter Combo, Threshold decks than Shaman. A 0/1 Goyf and 1/1 Mongoose are far easier to handle....for Shaman to do that, he would have to live for a long while.

[Valech]

I run 4 Deathrites and 3 Decays (no Chrome Mox, can't justify the loss of CA from it), having multiples of Deathrites is not bad at all, I had this game against Merfolk with his GY full of creatures and some instants and sorceries and I have 3 Deathrites in play, and him with LoA and a few merfolks. I had 2 Deathrites gaining me life and 1 shocking him each turn and won via deathrites killing him, it was mazing how he can affect the game state. It is also good against Dredge in the 1st game which would have been an auto loose for us, but deathrite changed it all, its an easy win if your opponent can't dredge fast enough. Against RU Delver it was a hit, 1st turn Deathrite, 2nd turn Thoughtseize SFM, 3rd turn Hymn and SFM into jitte/Batterskull can stop it in its tracks, thus an unanswered Deathrite can boost out our early game a whole lot, even hardcasting a batterskull or equipping into it was even possible in this deck. The only decks which this doesn't do much is combo decks, currently looking into getting more discard into the deck as fodder for Deathrite, I am even considering Nezumi Shortfang, instant discard and can transform into a rack on legs is not a bad option.

I think Chrome Mox and Deathrite Shaman is lot of acceleration, I would rather go into Deathrite and drop chrome mox because top decking into Deathrite is a whole lot better than top decking into a chrome mox since it can do much more

I won´t play without my Moxens anymore. The point is, that the manaacceleration of Deathrite Shaman only accelerates CC3+ cards. Unfortunatley we, or at least I, play mostly CC2 cards, namely Bob, Mystic, Bitterblossom, Canonist Sideboard, Abrupt Decay and Jitte. perhaps I forgot a few. Of course I like doing several things T2 like cc2 + discard/StoP but even more I love dropping a must-handle T1 (T1 = only-FoW-will-stop-you). Thats why I run two Mox. If you don´t draw them right away, you probably won´t in the rest of the game. If you draw 1 right away, chances are even smaller that you will draw the other one. If you start with both... well, then you are an unlucky man.
Of course I see the utility Shaman may provide, but saying topdecking him midgame is better then topdecking Mox doesn´t mean it´s good to topdeck him.
Even examples like your merfolk-match can´t convince me of him being worth a playset. If you were able to drop three creatures agsinst merfolk without being countered or overrun long before, game was yours anyway.

Conclusion: I will stay with two Mox and three of Shaman. Perhaps cut Shaman to two.


@ Gaka:
I´d like to see your list or at least know about your walker-setup.

@ Wilkin:
So how is it desireable to nuke both graveyards if you run cards with flashback, e.g. Lingering Souls and Cabal Therapy?
Shaman indeed is slow. But milling one card a turn is better than milling none. Ooze would be more of a sb card to me.

[paladin3056]

I won´t play without my Moxens anymore. The point is, that the manaacceleration of Deathrite Shaman only accelerates CC3+ cards. Unfortunatley we, or at least I, play mostly CC2 cards, namely Bob, Mystic, Bitterblossom, Canonist Sideboard, Abrupt Decay and Jitte. perhaps I forgot a few. Of course I like doing several things T2 like cc2 + discard/StoP but even more I love dropping a must-handle T1 (T1 = only-FoW-will-stop-you). Thats why I run two Mox. If you don´t draw them right away, you probably won´t in the rest of the game. If you draw 1 right away, chances are even smaller that you will draw the other one. If you start with both... well, then you are an unlucky man.
Of course I see the utility Shaman may provide, but saying topdecking him midgame is better then topdecking Mox doesn´t mean it´s good to topdeck him.
Even examples like your merfolk-match can´t convince me of him being worth a playset. If you were able to drop three creatures agsinst merfolk without being countered or overrun long before, game was yours anyway.

Conclusion: I will stay with two Mox and three of Shaman. Perhaps cut Shaman to two.

As much as I like the Moxen (Turn 1 Bob, SFM and Hymn) which is definitely a tempting play, but not a play that we would often play into, then having to top deck a mox into mid to late game gave me some bad experiences so I had to drop it, but its your choice we do have different opinions and deck list while mine is still in the works. But I think if it were in yours you can just drop deathrite all the same, they definitely work better in multiples since I had games where i would definitely like to draw more to get more value. Keep the abrupts, they are worth the splash until we get into Gatecrash which I am very hopeful we would get instant discard via Orzhov Charm and more goodies.

[Gaka]

IMHO, Deathrite Shaman is bad vs dredge. Milling one card a turn (and not even on the turn you cast him) is usually way too slow vs Dredge.

Even Extraction and Extirpate are only ok cards but they are at least instant speed. But Deathrite is too slow IMO. If you are going to splash green, I'd much rather go for Scavenging Ooze or Knight of the Reliquary. Creatures that are beaters but can also affect the graveyard.

Shaman might me alright vs. say a Threshold deck (although i doubt it) or say an Aggro loam deck. But honestly the card from the new set that is awesome is Rest in Peace. Not only does it nuke both graveyards but further cards can't enter the graveyard. That is far better against Dredge, Reanimator, Thopter Combo, Threshold decks than Shaman. A 0/1 Goyf and 1/1 Mongoose are far easier to handle....for Shaman to do that, he would have to live for a long while.

Deathrite isn't playable simply because it interacts with dredge. Yes, it can be slow against dredge, but game 1 against dredge is pretty shitty right now. Deathrite turns that game 1 from bad to possibility of winning. For a black manadork. Seems reasonable to me. It's playable because it's versatile.

He helps the original 56 along with his ramp, gives us some reach, and helps offset bob's lifeloss. It's reasonable for a single hybrid mana.

For barely doing anything other than slipping in a Bayou (maybe even a Dryad Arbor to facilitate more fodder for Cabal Therapy or Jitte) it's a good choice.

I won´t play without my Moxens anymore. The point is, that the manaacceleration of Deathrite Shaman only accelerates CC3+ cards. Unfortunatley we, or at least I, play mostly CC2 cards, namely Bob, Mystic, Bitterblossom, Canonist Sideboard, Abrupt Decay and Jitte. perhaps I forgot a few. Of course I like doing several things T2 like cc2 + discard/StoP but even more I love dropping a must-handle T1 (T1 = only-FoW-will-stop-you). Thats why I run two Mox. If you don´t draw them right away, you probably won´t in the rest of the game. If you draw 1 right away, chances are even smaller that you will draw the other one. If you start with both... well, then you are an unlucky man.
Of course I see the utility Shaman may provide, but saying topdecking him midgame is better then topdecking Mox doesn´t mean it´s good to topdeck him.
Even examples like your merfolk-match can´t convince me of him being worth a playset. If you were able to drop three creatures agsinst merfolk without being countered or overrun long before, game was yours anyway.

Conclusion: I will stay with two Mox and three of Shaman. Perhaps cut Shaman to two.


@ Gaka:
I´d like to see your list or at least know about your walker-setup.

@ Wilkin:
So how is it desireable to nuke both graveyards if you run cards with flashback, e.g. Lingering Souls and Cabal Therapy?
Shaman indeed is slow. But milling one card a turn is better than milling none. Ooze would be more of a sb card to me.

I totally understand where you're coming from in terms of not wanting to drop moxen. That two mox/three shaman set up is identical to what I'm running, and it's been working well. I dropped the moxen initially, thinking the extra boost from shaman would allow me to cut them... but it doesn't. It's a totally different sort of acceleration, and both are perfectly reasonable. Late-game topdecks can be pretty bad with moxen, but hopefully you have any one of your engines or beatsticks on board and can afford one. If you have a Liliana out mox isn't a terrible topdeck, either. You know what you're discarding.


Right now the list I've settled on is...

1 Batterskull
2 Chrome Mox
2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Dark Confidant
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic

2 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Zealous Persecution

3 Cabal Therapy
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
2 Vindicate

3 Liliana of the Veil

2 Bayou
4 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
4 Scrubland
1 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath

And I'm still testing parts of the board, but am running this right now:

2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Humility
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Serenity
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Timely Reinforcements

I'm not totally sold on Serenity, Deed, or the reinforcements, with the straight BW build Timely was great and serenity was occasionally really useful, but the green splash might add toys that could replace them.

I was running Engineered Explosives for a time.

[Wilkin]

I won´t play without my Moxens anymore. The point is, that the manaacceleration of Deathrite Shaman only accelerates CC3+ cards. Unfortunatley we, or at least I, play mostly CC2 cards, namely Bob, Mystic, Bitterblossom, Canonist Sideboard, Abrupt Decay and Jitte. perhaps I forgot a few. Of course I like doing several things T2 like cc2 + discard/StoP but even more I love dropping a must-handle T1 (T1 = only-FoW-will-stop-you). Thats why I run two Mox. If you don´t draw them right away, you probably won´t in the rest of the game. If you draw 1 right away, chances are even smaller that you will draw the other one. If you start with both... well, then you are an unlucky man.
Of course I see the utility Shaman may provide, but saying topdecking him midgame is better then topdecking Mox doesn´t mean it´s good to topdeck him.
Even examples like your merfolk-match can´t convince me of him being worth a playset. If you were able to drop three creatures agsinst merfolk without being countered or overrun long before, game was yours anyway.

Conclusion: I will stay with two Mox and three of Shaman. Perhaps cut Shaman to two.


@ Gaka:
I´d like to see your list or at least know about your walker-setup.

@ Wilkin:
So how is it desireable to nuke both graveyards if you run cards with flashback, e.g. Lingering Souls and Cabal Therapy?
Shaman indeed is slow. But milling one card a turn is better than milling none. Ooze would be more of a sb card to me.

I run Cabal Therapy but not Lingering Souls. Nuking both GY's are worth it if you can nullify your opponents creatures (like Goyf) or gameplan entirely like Dredge. I don't run Lingering Souls as I find it too many intensive for the amount of mana I run in my deck (23) and a lot of people in my meta run either Sulfur Elemental or Dread of Night. I already play a ton of 3 drops and I find Bitterblossom usually does the job.
As for the Mox argument, I can see both sides. I will say that since Hymn To Tourach isn't as good (with so much Misdirection around) it makes that turn 1 Chrome Mox play not as optimal. I still run Mox myself but the best plays I've done aren't Hymn anymore...it's a Thoughtseize and a Therapy turn 1...or Thoughtseize turn 1, Turn 2 Liliana.
Perhaps the Shaman can change it and be the Deadguy version of Noble Hierarch. Lol, too bad Abrupt Decay wasn't black/white. I wonder if Gatecrash is going to bring a 2 mana removal in black/white that's on par with Decay or Dreadbore.

[paladin3056]

Deathrite isn't playable simply because it interacts with dredge. Yes, it can be slow against dredge, but game 1 against dredge is pretty shitty right now. Deathrite turns that game 1 from bad to possibility of winning. For a black manadork. Seems reasonable to me. It's playable because it's versatile.

He helps the original 56 along with his ramp, gives us some reach, and helps offset bob's lifeloss. It's reasonable for a single hybrid mana.

For barely doing anything other than slipping in a Bayou (maybe even a Dryad Arbor to facilitate more fodder for Cabal Therapy or Jitte) it's a good choice.



I totally understand where you're coming from in terms of not wanting to drop moxen. That two mox/three shaman set up is identical to what I'm running, and it's been working well. I dropped the moxen initially, thinking the extra boost from shaman would allow me to cut them... but it doesn't. It's a totally different sort of acceleration, and both are perfectly reasonable. Late-game topdecks can be pretty bad with moxen, but hopefully you have any one of your engines or beatsticks on board and can afford one. If you have a Liliana out mox isn't a terrible topdeck, either. You know what you're discarding.


Right now the list I've settled on is...

1 Batterskull
2 Chrome Mox
2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Dark Confidant
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic

2 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Zealous Persecution

3 Cabal Therapy
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
2 Vindicate

3 Liliana of the Veil

2 Bayou
4 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
4 Scrubland
1 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath

And I'm still testing parts of the board, but am running this right now:

2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Humility
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Serenity
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Timely Reinforcements

I'm not totally sold on Serenity, Deed, or the reinforcements, with the straight BW build Timely was great and serenity was occasionally really useful, but the green splash might add toys that could replace them.

I was running Engineered Explosives for a time.

Yes Deathrite improves the match ups, like from completely unwinnable to a slight chance of winning. There was this one game against dredge where I won game 1, I had 2 deathrites in play putting the matchups in my favor.

As for the Moxen, I'll look if I'll test it in my build and see how it goes. Its been a long time since I last played with it though.

I run Cabal Therapy but not Lingering Souls. Nuking both GY's are worth it if you can nullify your opponents creatures (like Goyf) or gameplan entirely like Dredge. I don't run Lingering Souls as I find it too many intensive for the amount of mana I run in my deck (23) and a lot of people in my meta run either Sulfur Elemental or Dread of Night. I already play a ton of 3 drops and I find Bitterblossom usually does the job.
As for the Mox argument, I can see both sides. I will say that since Hymn To Tourach isn't as good (with so much Misdirection around) it makes that turn 1 Chrome Mox play not as optimal. I still run Mox myself but the best plays I've done aren't Hymn anymore...it's a Thoughtseize and a Therapy turn 1...or Thoughtseize turn 1, Turn 2 Liliana.
Perhaps the Shaman can change it and be the Deadguy version of Noble Hierarch. Lol, too bad Abrupt Decay wasn't black/white. I wonder if Gatecrash is going to bring a 2 mana removal in black/white that's on par with Decay or Dreadbore.

Yeah, Misdirect would now be the SB of choice for blue players since it can hit Abrupt Decay making Hymn a whole lot worse to play. Yeah I'm praying for a decent 2cc removal for BW in Gatecrash and a very nice Orzhov Charm.

[Mirrislegend]

What do people use as their "scary big guy" in this deck? When I play Junk, Knight of the Reliquary is a perfect example.

I'm designing a Deadguy list (in case Junk fails me again) and I've got 2 slots open for bigger beats or higher cost. Given that I'm not playing Vial (so no Serra Avenger) and I'm trying to avoid graveyard useage (meaning no Lingering Souls or Tombstalker), the best choices I've seen so far are Vampire Nighthawk, Mirran Crusader, and Hero of Bladehold.

Does anyone have a preference (among those, or other choices) and why?

[Gaka]

What do people use as their "scary big guy" in this deck? When I play Junk, Knight of the Reliquary is a perfect example.

I'm designing a Deadguy list (in case Junk fails me again) and I've got 2 slots open for bigger beats or higher cost. Given that I'm not playing Vial (so no Serra Avenger) and I'm trying to avoid graveyard useage (meaning no Lingering Souls or Tombstalker), the best choices I've seen so far are Vampire Nighthawk, Mirran Crusader, and Hero of Bladehold.

Does anyone have a preference (among those, or other choices) and why?

You should really rethink no Lingering Souls, it's by far the best way to win in the deck. I can't imagine not running less than 3, and I'd only cut one if something better were to pop up. It's the best card against tempo decks and control decks who can't afford to counter it without the flashback biting on them. If they counter the flashback'd version, you got a 0-1, two if they force.

Also, I don't think you really need any "big scary guys" at all. If you're running bob, each card needs to pull weight at least equal to the amount of damage it will do you when you flip it, because you will.

[Mirrislegend]

I love LSouls, I really do. But my experiences with Junk have taught me that sometimes you need to put something on the board that just makes your opponent shit their britches. The dejected tone of voice and various colorful expressions that I've received after sticking a Knight of the Reliquary are just priceless.

LSouls does the same thing that the rest of the deck does. Trades raw power for card advantage and utility. But facing down a team of Geese and Goyfs with Confidants and Stoneforges is not exactly desirable from an defensive or an offensive perspective

[scottjmorrow]

I love LSouls, I really do. But my experiences with Junk have taught me that sometimes you need to put something on the board that just makes your opponent shit their britches. The dejected tone of voice and various colorful expressions that I've received after sticking a Knight of the Reliquary are just priceless.

LSouls does the same thing that the rest of the deck does. Trades raw power for card advantage and utility. But facing down a team of Geese and Goyfs with Confidants and Stoneforges is not exactly desirable from an defensive or an offensive perspective

I'm running four copies of Mirran Crusader, who is a good meta call (if you can protect him -- I'm running Mom) and who is a house with Jitte. He's even better with Sword of War and Peace, but I've cut that for now. I'm on a phone at the moment, but I'll post my list soon.

[scottjmorrow]

Okay, so this is the list that I'm tentatively running for the SCG Open in Indy this weekend. I'm kind of torn on the discard package, specifically Tidehollow Sculler. I like that he holds a sword, and he's better in this list with Mother of Runes and Thalia...but even if I have to pay two mana for a discard spell, maybe it's better to deal with a card completely? I could pull him and split the slots with two regular discard spells (Inquisition) and maybe a pair of O-Rings or copies of Mana Tithe. I like Tithe for the WTF? factor, but maybe regular discard spells are better. I also could go with Hymn, but it's so much less devastating after turn two.

Also, I've only tested this a bit, but I'm liking Judge's Familiar so far. As has been discussed, the bird into Thalia is a big game early, and the flying is great with Jitte or other equipment.

4 Mother of Runes
4 Judge's Familiar
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Mirran Crusader

4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Batterskull

4 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Marsh Flats
2 Arid Mesa
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Plains
1 Swamp

SB
2 Duress
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Spectral Lynx
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Rest in Peace
1 Serenity
1 Warmth
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Oblivion Ring

I'm still tweaking the sideboard. I want to fit a Pithing Needle in there, maybe another sword, Rule of Law, and Manriki-Gusari -- probably switching out the Forge-Tenders and something else.

[Mirrislegend]

How has the ORLY owl been for you? That guy looks juicy in LD builds.

You make an excellent point about metagame calls: my meta is full of RUG, so my special threat needs to survive bolt. Hence, no Mirran Crusader or Vampire Nighthawk. Hero of Bladehold it is!

[evilGod]

I've been playing Sculler for awhile now in a lower creature build than yours, and he's been an all star for me. Most decks that you really want to be taking cards from tend to ignore creatures, and the ones that do interact he can hold a sword or pull removal away from Stoneforge/Confidant.

And you're usually happier top decking one than a Hymn after turn 3.

[Valech]

Okay, so this is the list that I'm tentatively running for the SCG Open in Indy this weekend. I'm kind of torn on the discard package, specifically Tidehollow Sculler. I like that he holds a sword, and he's better in this list with Mother of Runes and Thalia...but even if I have to pay two mana for a discard spell, maybe it's better to deal with a card completely? I could pull him and split the slots with two regular discard spells (Inquisition) and maybe a pair of O-Rings or copies of Mana Tithe. I like Tithe for the WTF? factor, but maybe regular discard spells are better. I also could go with Hymn, but it's so much less devastating after turn two.

Also, I've only tested this a bit, but I'm liking Judge's Familiar so far. As has been discussed, the bird into Thalia is a big game early, and the flying is great with Jitte or other equipment.

4 Mother of Runes
4 Judge's Familiar
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Mirran Crusader

4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Batterskull

4 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Marsh Flats
2 Arid Mesa
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Plains
1 Swamp

SB
2 Duress
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Spectral Lynx
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Rest in Peace
1 Serenity
1 Warmth
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Oblivion Ring

I'm still tweaking the sideboard. I want to fit a Pithing Needle in there, maybe another sword, Rule of Law, and Manriki-Gusari -- probably switching out the Forge-Tenders and something else.

Well, Sculler is quite nice, a good example for a hatebear: solid body, solid utility. what bugs me is, that he really shows his full potential within vial builds. dropping him in your opponents draw step feels like playing a clique. also, you run quite some cc2 drops, why dont you run vial at all?

im curious about your cc1 drops. you run 12 of them, not counting the StoPs because they are rather reactive. Never get into trouble what you drop first? I think familiar is a bit misplaced because it feels like another kind of controle, aside from discarding-controle. i may be wrong.

[scottjmorrow]

How has the ORLY owl been for you? That guy looks juicy in LD builds.

You make an excellent point about metagame calls: my meta is full of RUG, so my special threat needs to survive bolt. Hence, no Mirran Crusader or Vampire Nighthawk. Hero of Bladehold it is!

Honestly, if we you want a good 4-drop that lives through Bolt, go with Restoration Angel. Both Angel and Hero can get Dazed, but surprising a Delver is a big deal, and you can reset Stoneforge, Jötun Grunt (if you play it), and Sculler (if you want to switch cards), or, obviously, save a dude from removal. I ran three (along with three Aven Mindcensor) when I was playing a mono-white (non-D&T) build, and I enjoyed it. Also, it flies over the top of Tarmogoyf, which is important, and it carries a Jitte well.

As for Crusader, he's still sweet against RUG if you can protect him -- hence Mother of Runes. But running discard also gives you an idea of whether he'll live. Also, very importantly, note that Crusader kills in two swings with Jitte. Against a non-combo deck, dropping Mom into Stoneforge into Crusader is game over. Of course, that's living the dream...

Well, Sculler is quite nice, a good example for a hatebear: solid body, solid utility. what bugs me is, that he really shows his full potential within vial builds. dropping him in your opponents draw step feels like playing a clique. also, you run quite some cc2 drops, why dont you run vial at all?

im curious about your cc1 drops. you run 12 of them, not counting the StoPs because they are rather reactive. Never get into trouble what you drop first? I think familiar is a bit misplaced because it feels like another kind of controle, aside from discarding-controle. i may be wrong.

Yeah, Vial is great, especially with so many two-drops. I just don't know what I'd cut for it. You can play around counter magic to some degree, so even though the tempo boost is awesome and I love screwing counters, I don't like being down a card, especially if I draw multiples. I like Judge's Familiar in its place for now because I anticipate having a harder time against combo, but maybe that's incorrect. Like I said, flying is sweet, and its tax/counter ability really puts a deck like RUG in a bind. Then again, Vialing in the bird to counter a spell seems amazing. Maybe I could daringly go to 20 lands and cut two more cards to run three?

I haven't had trouble in casting the one-drops yet, but I'm still getting acclimated to this build. I have 16 ways for T1 W and 13 for T1 B.

Re: control / discard / disruption, I liked the current numbers because it's eight disruptive dudes (bird + Thalia), eight discard spells (Sculler + Thoughtseize), eight means of card advantage (Stoneforge + Confidant), four protectors (Mom), four beaters (Crusader), and then the removal and equipment. It seemed like a good balance, but it easily could be off. I like that bird, Thalia, and Crusader all wear Jitte like champs.

[scottjmorrow]

How has the ORLY owl been for you? That guy looks juicy in LD builds.

Oh, and the ORLY Owl seems solid, but I really haven't tested enough to know. (That's what this weekend is for!) I'm sure that s/he shines in LD builds, as you mentioned, so this isn't the most optimized home, but Thalia and Wasteland help. And I've gone back and forth on including a few Glowriders in the board for extra fun.

[Wilkin]

How has the ORLY owl been for you? That guy looks juicy in LD builds.

You make an excellent point about metagame calls: my meta is full of RUG, so my special threat needs to survive bolt. Hence, no Mirran Crusader or Vampire Nighthawk. Hero of Bladehold it is!

Considering Hero of Bladehold and Desecration Demon in my flex 2 slots. Lol, hoping Gatecrash gives me something good there. We'll see. I'm personally hoping for a WWBB 4/4 that when it comes into play destroys a mono colored permanent and has a "throwaway ability" like First strike.


Phyrexian Obliterator is in my current build. You can only really run him in a heavy black build. Against RUG or RU Delver, when I resolved him, it was gg. In one game against RU delver I had Obliterator equipped with Batterskull. Gain 9 life, thank you very much. Against creature decks he's insane. Sure there's always STP or Path to worry about but if they don't.... I beat affinity with him with SOFI on it, it didn't matter that he drew Etched Champion for 3 turns as they promptly died to the SOFI activation.

[Rizso]

For scary finishers i prefair planeswalkers elspeth / sorin in a token version. Havent been able to pickup deathrites into the deck yet as im quite focused on standard atm. Also waiting a bit til i can get foiled out deathrites shamans :P