All B/R update speculation.

[Star|Scream]

On April 17th of this year, I had come to an impass on a discussion of the viability and banworthyness of a card that was only spoiled at the time. I offered a pretty big bet, which was refused. In my frustration, I simply stated the following.



Here we are and this is what I now have to say.

DragoFireHeart was pretty convinced that Temporal Mastery was going to be so good that it may require a ban. Time has a way of revealing whether predictions are right. I think it is now pretty obvious that Temporal Mastery is not so good that it requires banning. In fact, it is not the best or second best miracle. It was simply a card that appeared amazing because it seemed similar to Time Walk.

With all due respect, I was right on this issue and you were mistaken, DragoFireHeart.

This seems pretty childish.

It's nothing more than an internet "I told you so." I'm sorry that you not only felt the need to follow through with your commitment, but that you actually remembered it. Did you have it written down on a calendar or something?

[ramanujan]

The miracle of technology allows us to program reminders into our phones easily enough. I got the reminder and created the post this morning. I was not holding a grudge or anything, but I did commit to come back and so I did.

For what it is worth, I would have apologized if I had been wrong as well.

When I say I'll do something, I follow through. I believe that shouldn't be surprising.

[caiomarcos]

I hope they ban Show and Tell, because I won't be playing competitive Legacy anymore until they do. :(

[Silent Requiem]

This seems pretty childish.

It's nothing more than an internet "I told you so." I'm sorry that you not only felt the need to follow through with your commitment, but that you actually remembered it. Did you have it written down on a calendar or something?

Actually, it seems pretty relevant to me.

Surely, the accuracy of one's past predictions says something meaningful about the accuracy of your future predictions, no? Have we no interest in learning from history, or past mistakes?

More importantly, ramanujan made a commitment and followed through on it. I fail to see how this says anything about him that is not positive. You only think him petty because he was right, and we live in a society that punishes success/excellence. If events had turned out differently, and he had posted today about how wrong he had been, we'd all be chatting about what a very good fellow he was, owning up to his mistakes like that.

[Star|Scream]

Actually, it seems pretty relevant to me.

Surely, the accuracy of one's past predictions says something meaningful about the accuracy of your future predictions, no? Have we no interest in learning from history, or past mistakes?

More importantly, ramanujan made a commitment and followed through on it. I fail to see how this says anything about him that is not positive. You only think him petty because he was right, and we live in a society that punishes success/excellence. If events had turned out differently, and he had posted today about how wrong he had been, we'd all be chatting about what a very good fellow he was.

Because humility is a good trait while arrogance isn't. Owning up to your failures should be rewarded and boasting about your achievements should be frowned upon. I don't understand how you feel otherwise.

This has nothing to do with learning from history. This is just someone tooting their own horn, plain and simple.

Also, I feel that someone physically setting a reminder on their phone to "I told you so" someone on the internet six months in the future is not normal, and should not be condoned or rewarded. It's strange behavior.

[DragoFireheart]

Regardless of how broken Show and Tell is, does anyone actually find it FUN to play against?

[Philipp2293]

If they drop Emrakul and I drop Knight or Karakas, sure.

[DragoFireheart]

If they drop Emrakul and I drop Knight or Karakas, sure.

- And if I don't have Knight or Karakas?

[caiomarcos]

Regardless of how broken Show and Tell is, does anyone actually find it FUN to play against?

I just said that I don't plan to play competitive Legacy while Show and Tell is around and that is the reason.
I usually play Enchantress, so losing to combo is the norm and I take that as part of the game, but for some reason I'm not sure about I abhor playing against/with Show and Tell decks. I think they're too dumb, too stupid. Maybe that's because I'm from the time when Show and Tell was used to drop Serra Avatars so still today I see it as a dumb card and line of play.

Couple weeks ago there was a qualifier in my city for the Brazilian Legacy Nationals. I haven't played in a couple of months, I didn't have any sleep the night before the tournament and I wasn't even sure what deck I was playing, but I went to hang out with friends and have a good time slinging cards. In the car, on the way to the tournament, I ask one of my friends to see his deck. The card on top was a Show and Tell and I say "fuck that, hate that card, hate that deck, don't care about the list". Turns out I face 3 Show and Tell decks in my first 3 rounds, out of 5 Show and Tell decks in the tournament.

Point is, I don't have fun with Show and Tell decks around, be playing against them or playinh with them. Does anybody?

[death]

But losing to unfair decks like Reanimator, Dredge, ANT, TES, Painter, Elves etc. doesn't make you feel bad?

[menace13]

I hope they ban Show and Tell, because I won't be playing competitive Legacy anymore until they do. :(

I mean, is it that where you play the only thing winning is SnT? Because usually (and by usually I mean for like past 13 months) it's RUG, Maverick, Blade.

Edit: Fun, fun for me is definitely getting Wasteland-ed, Stifled, Dazed, Pierced, Bolted, and Delver-ed for 3 turns straight every time I lose die rolls

And almost as good a time is getting Thalia, Mom, KotR and 7 tutor into play answers to anything that might get in the way


TL;DR: I think every deck is not fun, and sucks to play against

[DragoFireheart]

But losing to unfair decks like Reanimator, Dredge, ANT, TES, Painter, Elves etc. doesn't make you feel bad?

- Except all of those have many different ways of answering.

[caiomarcos]

But losing to unfair decks like Reanimator, Dredge, ANT, TES, Painter, Elves etc. doesn't make you feel bad?

Not even close to Show and Tell decks.

I think my reasoning, actually my feeling (if it was rational it wouldn't matter which unfair deck I lose to) is that those decks are unfair but not dumb. Show and Tell is dumb.

Every deck strives to be unfair and have easy wins. When combo decks reach that point it is easier to see, but every other deck can get there. The problem I have with Show and Tell is not only the unfair portion. My problem is the "oops I win because I don't have to pay mana anymore" portion.

For a long time people have been complaining about the game becoming more creature centered, thus dumbing down things (I agree), but Show and Telliing stuff like Emrakul and Omniscience is another level of dumbing down the game.

[(nameless one)]

Instead of banning things, why not unban things?

Earthcraft - Legacy just had another two-card win button (Rest in Peace + Helm of Obedience). Why can't Earthcraft and Squirrel's Nest exist?

Frantic Search - Storm based combo is at all time low. I haven't seen High Tide place a significant event. Its not like Frantic Search will be helping Show and Tell decks and Dredge.

[DragoFireheart]

Instead of banning things, why not unban things?

- Sometimes, you DO have to ban a particular nasty card. Mental Misstep is a good example of this: I don't see anything that could be unbanned that would make it work without having to just keep it on the banned list.

[(nameless one)]

- Sometimes, you DO have to ban a particular nasty card. Mental Misstep is a good example of this: I don't see anything that could be unbanned that would make it work without having to just keep it on the banned list.

But theres nothing detremental to Show and Tell right now. I do agree that its not a fair deck but its not like every top 8 has at least 4 of the archetypes it represents.

[Kl'rt]

I just said that I don't plan to play competitive Legacy while Show and Tell is around and that is the reason.
I usually play Enchantress, so losing to combo is the norm and I take that as part of the game, but for some reason I'm not sure about I abhor playing against/with Show and Tell decks. I think they're too dumb, too stupid. Maybe that's because I'm from the time when Show and Tell was used to drop Serra Avatars so still today I see it as a dumb card and line of play.

Couple weeks ago there was a qualifier in my city for the Brazilian Legacy Nationals. I haven't played in a couple of months, I didn't have any sleep the night before the tournament and I wasn't even sure what deck I was playing, but I went to hang out with friends and have a good time slinging cards. In the car, on the way to the tournament, I ask one of my friends to see his deck. The card on top was a Show and Tell and I say "fuck that, hate that card, hate that deck, don't care about the list". Turns out I face 3 Show and Tell decks in my first 3 rounds, out of 5 Show and Tell decks in the tournament.

Point is, I don't have fun with Show and Tell decks around, be playing against them or playinh with them. Does anybody?

You might not have fun playing with them, but I'm sure a lot of people do. Like menace13 said, it's not like Show and Tell decks are dominating Legacy now. At least Show and Tell adds some variety to the same Tier 1 decks we see all the time.

If playing against Show and Tell is not fun to you, just change your sideboard to make it fun. If it's against Sneak Attack, board in Humility or even better, Gilded Drake. I guarantee you, it is very fun to drop a Gilded Drake for your opponent's Emrakul. If against Omniscience, put Angel of Despair or O-Ring in your sideboard.

Show and Tell is not getting banned anytime soon. It's simply not putting up the results required for banning consideration.

[ThomasDowd]

Instead of banning things, why not unban things?


Frantic Search - Storm based combo is at all time low. I haven't seen High Tide place a significant event. Its not like Frantic Search will be helping Show and Tell decks and Dredge.

You are out of your mind. frantic search in high tide is a dark ritual+ that draws you two spells. ALWAYS.

[Stinky-Dinkins]

Also, I feel that someone physically setting a reminder on their phone to "I told you so" someone on the internet six months in the future is not normal, and should not be condoned or rewarded. It's strange behavior.

I don't think it is, but I'm willing to think more about this controversy.

I will think about it for exactly three months and let you know if I change my mind.

Putting a reminder in my phone now.

[(nameless one)]

You are out of your mind. frantic search in high tide is a dark ritual+ that draws you two spells. ALWAYS.

I know. Its not like High Tide is tier 1.5 right now. Its the same tier as Affinity/MUD/Elves/Merfolk. It has the potential to be a deck to beat but not to a point when its unbeatable. You're basically making a 3-4 turn combo deck half a turn faster.