Modern Banned List

[bowvamp]

Yeah, in testing I've found
Ideas Unbound
Seismic Assault
Life from the Loam
Lotus Cobra
Manamorphose
Prismatic Omen
to be the best shell. Idk, going combo is a really hard route and the main combo decks of the format do it better.

[somethingdotdotdot]

How about trade routes? Since you're playing so many land, you can cycle them to find actual fuel. You can also dredge like crazy with loam, and if you happen to Titan and already have a valakut active, you can guarantee a trigger/turn. Lastly, you can return every land and assault for the finish.

[Mr. Safety]

Yeah, in testing I've found
Ideas Unbound
Seismic Assault
Life from the Loam
Lotus Cobra
Manamorphose
Prismatic Omen
to be the best shell. Idk, going combo is a really hard route and the main combo decks of the format do it better.

Curious, how many lands? I've been pushing as many as 30 to make sure I can have Seismic Fodder.

Current rough list:

4x Treasure Hunt
4x Summer Bloom
4x Life from the Loam
4x Scapeshift
4x Seismic Assault
4x Prismatic Omen
30x-ish Lands, including a playset of Horizon Canopy

Cards on my radar screen:

Mana Leak (to delay)
Explore (just more synergy)
Countryside Crusher (RUG aggro loam in modern?)
Lotus Cobra (I was thinking the same thing...this could really get big plays down fast, and fast Titans could be what the deck needs.)
Firespout (maindeck...I'm not sure if the deck can be competitive if it doesn't have a way to wipe the board early)
Raven's Crime/Flame Jab (Loam can make them good-great in the right matchups...)

I've been testing against a stock Jund list I net-decked on MWS (goldfishing) and so far it isn't looking great. Prismatic Omen is a neccessity to get a combo going (so I can grab 4 Valakuts and a couple Mountains/lands for 24 damage.) Seismic Assault is a really solid alternative plan with Loam.

[rxavage]

Mana Leak (to delay)

What about using the actual card Delay? Thats what I'm testing, it's the best and cheapest, along with Dispel, to ensure Scapeshift resolves.

[DragoFireheart]

I still don't understand why Ancestral Vision is banned.

[Bignasty197]

I still don't understand why Ancestral Vision is banned.

I heard it was because Suspending it on T1 gives the control decks an opportunity to counter/kill any relevant spells for the first turns and then get a refill. Considering how underpowered the control decks are in the format, they could probably use some kind of boost. Personally, I think the point was to eliminate Bloodbraid Elf cascading into it and also to stop Faeries from having access to it. --If you played Type 2 during Lorwyn block, you know what I mean.

[Fizzeler]

I still don't understand why Ancestral Vision is banned.

I heard it was because Suspending it on T1 gives the control decks an opportunity to counter/kill any relevant spells for the first turns and then get a refill. Considering how underpowered the control decks are in the format, they could probably use some kind of boost. Personally, I think the point was to eliminate Bloodbraid Elf cascading into it and also to stop Faeries from having access to it. --If you played Type 2 during Lorwyn block, you know what I mean.

This is the reason, but by same virtue this is also why they can unban Ancestral Visions since control is very weak, I think RTR was supposed to help fix this with Detention Sphere, Supreme Verdict, and Jace, Architect Of Thought

Bitterblossom is banned as a result of the same Faeries deck no? (I wasn't playing during that Standard)

[DragoFireheart]

...and also to stop Faeries from having access to it. --If you played Type 2 during Lorwyn block, you know what I mean.

- Oh yes. It's why Volcanic Fallout exists.

[trivial_matters]

- Oh yes. It's why Volcanic Fallout exists.

And GREAT STABLE STAG.

[DragoFireheart]

And GREAT STABLE STAG.

Did that stupid Stag actually do anything to faeries?

[Bignasty197]

Did that stupid Stag actually do anything to faeries?

Not exactly what it was supposed to do for the decks that needed it. It could swing past everything but Mutavault, which was good. At least until they chumped with Mutavault then flashed in Scion and killed the Stag. I played UB Faeries during that Standard.

As far as the B&R list goes, I think Visions can probably come off but Bitterblossom can never be unbanned. Ever.

[DragoFireheart]

Not exactly what it was supposed to do for the decks that needed it. It could swing past everything but Mutavault, which was good. At least until they chumped with Mutavault then flashed in Scion and killed the Stag. I played UB Faeries during that Standard.

As far as the B&R list goes, I think Visions can probably come off but Bitterblossom can never be unbanned. Ever.

- Yeah I had that feeling about GSS when I looked at it. It looked too terrible to be effective for what it was intended to do.

Will Ponder/Preordain ever come off? Serum Visions is... ok, but not amazing. Other than that, the rest of the banned list looks fine, though it is funny seeing Wild Nacatl on that list.

[TeenieBopper]

Will Ponder/Preordain ever come off? Serum Visions is... ok, but not amazing. Other than that, the rest of the banned list looks fine, though it is funny seeing Wild Nacatl on that list.

I highly doubt it. They're allowed to get away with the power creep the past few years in Standard because the format is small enough that a critical mass of broken can't be reached. We saw a year ago that this clearly wasn't the case when two blocks became seven. Twin/Storm weren't that much slower than Legacy combo, but were just as consistent and didn't have to deal with Force of Will. The only way Ponder and/or Pre-ordain come off the list is if Force of Will gets reprinted for Modern. Even then, I'd argue that the constraints of the format forced the combo decks to be more resilient to control and Force of Will wouldn't make that much of a difference.

Actually, thinking about it a little, I wonder what would happen if they unbanned Ponder or Pre-ordain, but banned Grapeshot, Empty the Warrens, and Splinter Twin. A U/R combo deck would still exist (Dragonstorm), it would be consistent enough to be playable, but it would be slow enough for both aggro and control to keep up. I still think the format needs a real counterspell, though (like, say, Counterspell).

[JDK]

Dragonstorm without an alternative Kill (Grapeshot, Empty) and Rite of Flame doesn't work well enough. Also, there's no point in banning a completely fine archetype just to make other (DTB-) decks (Delver) significantly stronger.

[DragoFireheart]

I still think the format needs a real counterspell, though (like, say, Counterspell).

- I agree. The current line-up of counterspells in Modern are far too weak or situational. If WotC expects the game to not be won until after turn 4 (IIRC, this is their goal), then mana leak style of counterspells are going to be bad.

Is Spell Pierce even playable in Modern? Without land destruction it seems like a very bad counter spell and you may as well just run Negate or something.

[JDK]

Counterspell would be far too strong in Modern. People are already playing Deprive in some Delver decks, CS would get autoincluded in most blue decks. It's just too strong for this format, imo.

[Bignasty197]

... Also, there's no point in banning a completely fine archetype just to make other (DTB-) decks (Delver) significantly stronger.

I can agree with this. Delver needs to be powered DOWN if anything. The reasoning behind the banning of Nacatl was that it is too efficient for its cost. IMO, Delver needs to go for this very reason. RUG and URW Delver are clear Tier 1 decks based on recent tournament finishes. Adding Ponder or Preordain into the mix just makes these decks more consistent, which is exactly what we don't want.

[Lord Seth]

I can agree with this. Delver needs to be powered DOWN if anything. The reasoning behind the banning of Nacatl was that it is too efficient for its cost. IMO, Delver needs to go for this very reason. RUG and URW Delver are clear Tier 1 decks based on recent tournament finishes. Adding Ponder or Preordain into the mix just makes these decks more consistent, which is exactly what we don't want.

No it wasn't. Wild Nacatl wasn't banned because it was too good. It was banned because it was really good and forced you into Zoo and made it so there was little point in playing other aggro decks. It was for format diversity. Delver of Secrets does not constrain the format in the same way Wild Nacatl did. Wild Nacatl was a powerful card that brought down diversity. Delver of Secrets is a powerful card that, well, doesn't (you even pointed out two different decks it can go in).

This "if Wild Nacatl got banned, why doesn't Delver of Secrets?" question that's always brought up misses the point of why Wild Nacatl was actually banned. You're free to disagree with the rationale or the banning, but the "if Nacatl why not Delver" is essentially a strawman.

[TonyRo]

I have a bunch of fundamental gripes about the Modern format that mostly revolve around the banned list:

1. I think if you have to ban cards like Ponder/Preordain, Wild Nacatl, GSZ, and perhaps even Sword of the Meek (though I do get this one to a certain extent), then the "physics" of the format are fundamentally screwed up. If card pool doesn't allow players to deal with 1 mana filtering spells (worse than Brainstorm by a mile), a one mana conditional 3/3 (Delver is allowed though!?), or a slow, hard to tutor combo that you can disrupt with a very large pool of accessible and generally very good/common sideboard cards anyway, you've got some issues to solve.

2. I hate that Jund is basically the best deck, and noticeably so, since it's literally just a pile of the best cards in the format. When the smorgasbord of best cards in the format are the best deck, there's not much you can do, there's not much to conjure up and create, and the format is boring. Jund has more efficiency, raw power, and card advantage than any other deck in the format at every spot in the curve, and it's not close. People are realizing this, and the MODO Daily results are exceptionally depressing.

3. The card draw/filtering in this format is horrific. With Visions banned, the best Blue has is probably Thirst for Knowledge. Yep, Thirst for Knowledge.

4. I think it's terrible that a GR deck has the most inevitability in Modern. Tron is very tough to interact with, very fast (T3 Karn being about as fast as it gets) and goes bigger than any fair deck can hope to go. In my opinion, this warps the format. They banned Cloudpost earlier because of this, but Tron stays? This fact along with #3 above wipe Control as an archetype right out of the format, basically making Modern a bunch of decks that turn creatures sideways, and a random assortment of combo/combo-ish decks that attempt to race them. That's boring as hell. I love that Magic provides players a huge number of ways to express themselves, but to me, Modern lacks this.

Perhaps it's just me, but the above list really reduces my interest in the format by a lot.

[Bignasty197]

No it wasn't. Wild Nacatl wasn't banned because it was too good. It was banned because it was really good and forced you into Zoo and made it so there was little point in playing other aggro decks. It was for format diversity. Delver of Secrets does not constrain the format in the same way Wild Nacatl did. Wild Nacatl was a powerful card that brought down diversity. Delver of Secrets is a powerful card that, well, doesn't (you even pointed out two different decks it can go in).

This "if Wild Nacatl got banned, why doesn't Delver of Secrets?" question that's always brought up misses the point of why Wild Nacatl was actually banned. You're free to disagree with the rationale or the banning, but the "if Nacatl why not Delver" is essentially a strawman.

You say Nacatl wasn't banned because it was too good, then go on to give reasons why it was too good. Players were forced into Zoo because the best creature fits perfectly into it. Yes, this hurts diversity because you can follow up the best 1-drop with the best 2-drop or 2 more 1-drops and ride them to victory while holding Bolt/Path/Helix to clean up blockers and life total. That fact is--it restricted the diversity of the format because it was too good. Delver has efficiently jumped into the driver's seat and may eventually be as oppressive as Nacatl. The only thing I see that contradicts this is the printing of Abrupt Decay. Delver decks can no longer just hold up Spell Pierce mana to deal with removal and just swing away. Why would anyone want to play a deck that doesn't play 1-mana, 3 power flyers that makes you play cards like Bolt/Path/Helix/counterspells to support it? If you have played the format recently, you understand what I'm talking about with Delver.