[Deck] The Rock

[Apollo]

Deathrite is the real deal IMO and is probably a good buy but with as much RTR that's being opened its hard to imagine any rare from the set maintaining a really high price, Decay has fallen by about half and that was a very hyped rare (which admittedly isn't as great as some thought in the current battlecruiser creature std format). Shaman actually is starting to find his niche role in the format. For instance in Frites (Std. reanimation) you pump a lot of land in your gy and he works well there. Of course his GY hate utility goes w/o saying, people like the card I think it'll get even more popular in the format as people experiment with him.

[lavafrogg]

I'm not sure how much price spiking occurs because of a single thread on The Source, but okay. I think more realistically, that people realize it's going to be a good card for both Modern and Legacy (I'm clueless about Standard), and so they are picking them up before they do price spike.

And for the record, I'm clamoring for why I think Shaman is good, because I think Shaman is good. I'm not actually going to go out and a buy 100 copies to try and turn a profit (I know your comment was not directed towards me, but I just felt like getting that off my chest anyway).

The only reason we are talking about the price of the card is because I care for my fellow rock players and think this card is fucking tits. If someone saw a sale on cheap blow and hookers I hope, for the love of god, that you guys would tell the Rock thread about it. Everyone knows that Rock players love good deals.

Something I have noticed in testing with my list, 4 GSZ/4Shaman+SFM, if ANY of my creatures live for longer than a turn or two...I will win 90% of my matches. For the first time in any deck I have played, ALL of my creatures are must kills. It is really nice.

[Stuuch]

Speaking of different lists. Here is what I will test next:

Lands: (23)

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
2 Scrubland
3 Bayou
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuga Bog
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Dryad Arbor

Creatures (13)

4 Knight
4 Bob
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Shaman
1 Qasali
1 Thrun
1 Ooze

Instants (6)

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay

Sorceries (10)

4 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Vindicate
2 Green Sun´s Zenith
1 Life from the Loam

Encantments (1)

1 Deed

Planeswalkers (1)

1 Liliana of the Veil

Artifacts (6)

3 Mox Diamond
3 Sensei´s Top


Sideboard (15)

3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Extirpate
2 EE
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Choke
2 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod´s Crypt


My previous decklist had Stoneforge Mystic but I want to try without her for a change. I may go back to her very shortly though if I feel I cannot compete against burn or Delver without her. The Vindicate slots used to be Maelstrom Pulses but I want to blow up some lands with spells too against combo decks so I try them out again. The lone Deed in the main is easy to side out in most matches but it can also steal some games I had no busines winning otherwise. The disputed Shaman is also being tested as a 1 off because I feel I dont need more for now. Mox just has much more synergies with the deck and it cannot be removed so easily.

[lavafrogg]

Okay, so I want to get away from our past few arguments like Goyf vs SFM, Shaman vs graveyard, decay vs pulse and I would like to tell you that I have found a very unique and versatile sideboard card that I feel is worth talking about. This card would come in against our hardest matches and if at the very least always slow our opponents down by a turn(even more when coupled with discard plus wastelands!!).

My friend and I just tested it against miracles, merfolk, show and tell(omniscience), RUG, goblins and maverick and found that it has applications in all match ups, if you do not have anything better to bring in. The card....Judge's Familiar.

I know....

Let it sit in for a second...

Holy Shit right? lol.

It single handedly gives us more hate against dredge(sacrifice to remove bridges), combo(need 1 more mana to combo, gives us more time to discard), RUG(counter their counters/removal? they love to tap out and play free spells, this forces them to slow down), miracles(gives you another turn to get early beats in and picks up equipment to fly in for super beats), merfolk/goblins(blocks as a 1/1 flies with equipment over the top, makes the aggro player slow down), maverick(maverick has a surprisingly fragile manabase and loves to keep its own land count low also has no/few fliers to stop a jitte carrying bird) and show and tell(one more turn to combo is one more turn for us to win).

This will now be the de-facto additional combo hate in my board as I continue to test it out, wasteland is already strong against combo decks and this card has more synergy our discard and teeg(pseudo protection for teeg) than the super taxing Thalia. It is replacing the hymn to tourach's that Matt just had me put in my board.

Test it out! Let me know what you think!

p.s. I am not saying that this is the best card and has main board implications, I am saying that it can replace dead cards in your main to give you awesome options and versatility against a wide range of archetypes, especially the current decks to beat. Also this card would most likely only be above average/really good in a list that ran SFM/equipment to protect the SFM and to pick up the swords and fly for the win.

For Example:

4 Judge's Familiar
1 sword of light and shadow
1 scavenging ooze
3 path to exile/abrupt decay
2 Pithing Needle
3 Extirpate

Would be pretty decent against a random field.

[Mirrislegend]

I was eying the ORLY owl too. However, I don't think he belongs in Junk. We gain too much value from the size of our creatures.

I think he has great potential in Deadguy Ale. The deck can play Thalia MD and great discard and support more Wastelands. I'm actually brewing that at the moment.

Alternatively, he could be an excellent fit in Mav. They have 4x Wasteland and MD Thalia also.

@ Stuuch:
1 Deed and 1 Lili seems bad. You should up one or both or cut one. Thrun is also kinda useless these days. Consider the MUs where it's relevant: You'll never reach the mana to get it against RUG, and control can just Terminus it away

[damionblackgear]

I'm not sure the Bird is good enough. We already had a concealable version in Mana Tithe and it never saw play with us (some Death and Taxes variants used it A LONG time ago). Granted, I don't remember it every really getting tested here either.

[Claymore]

The bird seems to have value in equipment decks. Having evasion to swing with a Sword while being a free Tax is great. Otherwise it is an largely passive 1/1 with zero board impact that needs other specific cards in your deck to be effective.

I can see it sideboard as a weak Thalia alternative or Thalia 5-8, but limited to SFM decks.

[lavafrogg]

You guys are lame! I give you gold and you just reiterate what I said in my post!!

Of course he is good in a deck with wastelands, we are running 4! And of course he is good with equipment! That is why I said he had to be in a SFM build!

Now, I think that he buys us just as much time as he would in a maverick deck. Teeg plus bird plus discard seems to be a huge hole to climb out of for any deck that would need to. The flying body is a huge upside as well.

[Hanni]

You need to reread Familiar. You said it can hit Vial, but it's limited to just instants and sorceries.

The card is good, but it will require a specific build, IMO.

Familiar is just like Cursecatcher, except it has flying. It's home is going to be in some sort of tempo shell (not necessarily blue), that combines other elements like it. Wasteland and Thalia is a perfect start, and maybe that is enough. You still need to back that up with either a clock or a card advantage engine, though.

I've been working on some various lists with Familiar, and I'm still at a crossroads. My core looks like this:

4 Wasteland
4 Mother of Runes
4 Weathered Wayfarer
4 Judge's Familiar
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Aether Vial

From there, the rest of the deck could be pretty much anything... and that's why I haven't posted anything about it anywhere yet. It's still in the developmental stages for me.

I've toyed with some splashes so far, but still not sold on anything. The Wayfarer's are part of my core because they give me a card advantage engine on a 1cc creature, that tutors for Wastelands to further the synergy with Familiar and Thalia. Vial lets me cheat on lands, to further abuse Wayfarer while providing me with some strong tempo accel (and uncounterability).

[lavafrogg]

You need to reread Familiar. You said it can hit Vial, but it's limited to just instants and sorceries.

This is why you don't post at 5 in the morning, post fixed to make me sound like less of an ass. I knew it was instants and sorceries too....

[Mr. Safety]

I'm not sure the Bird is good enough. We already had a concealable version in Mana Tithe and it never saw play with us (some Death and Taxes variants used it A LONG time ago). Granted, I don't remember it every really getting tested here either.

I play Mana Tithe in my fast zoo sideboard...yup, I'm just noobtarded like that. Tap out for Engineered Explosives or Pernicious Deed? SHAZAM! I overdramatize, but it's a great tempo play to protect fast early threats. I was a big supporter of Mental Misstep in fast zoo (when it was legal.) While this isn't nearly as good, it has its moments. But I digress...

Judge's Familiar doesn't seem to offer enough to Rock. Many players are sticking with the Bob/Goyf/Knight package and not even going with SFM/equips. He's obviously better in an equipment-based deck, but I don't think he's worth the space. I'm having a hard time squeezing in a 2nd Garruk Relentless in my deck, there just isn't enough room. Rock's 1-mana plays will always be removal (Swords), disruption (targeted discard), or acceleration (BoP, Deathrite, GSZ, Noble Heirarch occasionally.) Rock gains advantage by ramping into bigger spells faster, enabled by targeted discard ROBBING reactive disruption, not playing it ourselves. Rock is the anti-control, not the control.

This is of course my opinion, but I don't think I'm alone. If I am playing a creature, I want it to be a threat. If I'm playing a spell, I want it to deal with something permanently ie hand disruption or swords. This 'possible value' out of a 1/1 flyer for one mana in Rock seems foolish. The closest correlation is Cursecatcher in Merfolk.

Long story short (too late): I'm not a fan of Judge's Familiar. More than anything else what Rock decks need to be doing right now is loading up on Abrupt Decay and discard to rape RUG Tempo, Stoneblade, and Miracle control.

[lavafrogg]

Okay, I am going to say it again for people who do not understand. I am suggesting judges familiar for decks that run SFM and equipment. It couples with all of our proactive disruption to buy us turns to win the game. It also comes in for dead cards to fly with equipment.

[Oiolosse]

Okay, I am going to say it again for people who do not understand. I am suggesting judges familiar for decks that run SFM and equipment. It couples with all of our proactive disruption to buy us turns to win the game. It also comes in for dead cards to fly with equipment.

I'm super lit and I understand, so feel free to move on.

[lavafrogg]

I'm super lit and I understand, so feel free to move on.

Hey sorry buddy, when you see people using the arguement of "you need to run equipment to make him good" when I am running SFM and equipment I am allowed to poke fun. The only difference between the decklists that people are suggesting and mine are the inclusion of Thalia. I am playing discard and wasteland thy are playing Thalia and wasteland, are they comparable... That is what I am asking. Playing proactive and reactive disruption is an interesting angle that only UB decks get to abuse.

Thank you for contributing to the rock thread and we appreciate yor traffic.

[Mr. Safety]

Okay, I am going to say it again for people who do not understand. I am suggesting judges familiar for decks that run SFM and equipment. It couples with all of our proactive disruption to buy us turns to win the game. It also comes in for dead cards to fly with equipment.

Gotcha bro...

[Mr. Safety]

Question: can a competitive Rock deck be built without Dark Confidant (and *not* be Nic-Fit)? Not trolling...truly curious, because I don't have the $150-160 for Bobs right now.

[sdematt]

Question: can a competitive Rock deck be built without Dark Confidant (and *not* be Nic-Fit)? Not trolling...truly curious, because I don't have the $150-160 for Bobs right now.

Phyrexian Arena, champ. It's not the worst idea since it doesn't get hit by Swords to Plowshares either.

-Matt

[defector]

Just an idea for the fetch land side of the discussion. Wouldn't fetch lands 8-10 be better served as Horizon Canopy? I'm testing a shaman/thalia deck with KOTR and it seems if you do a mana base like:
Fetch X8
Duals X6
Wasteland X4
Basics X3
Canopy X2

That you can find a happy medium between early shaman activations, late game big KOTR and a little draw without dead fetches. just my .02.

[Mr. Safety]

Phyrexian Arena, champ. It's not the worst idea since it doesn't get hit by Swords to Plowshares either.

-Matt

How many do you recommend? Two, three, the whole set?

[igri_is_a_bk]

Start with four and work your way down if you don't like it.