Probably. I'm also incredibly stubborn. A little window into my psyche:Originally Posted by Greenpoe
I'm a huge fan of vintage, or rather, the style of deck you can play in vintage known as combo-control. This is possible because you can run a control shell, but you can effectively make your deck also function as a combo deck because vintage has a lot of efficient combos. Combo-control doesn't really exist in any format other than vintage, because the efficient combos don't exist outside of it, largely. Either the combo costs too much mana to be effective, or a piece of it is banned, or who knows. I am also a firm believer in the power of archetypes in legacy that have seen little to no respect in the community at large. Ramp is one such archetype, and Nic Fit is my chosen baby therein. I played MUD like two years ago for a while, but that was Forgemaster MUD, not Timur-MUD (as I didn't know Timur at the time), and I grew frustrated by its inconsistencies. Enter Commander decks, which exposed me to Veteran Explorer, and the rest is academic.
I also subscribe to Carsten's hybridization theory, in part because this theory has legacy eventually becoming closer to vintage as decks continue to hybridize which roles they can play. I also have the problem where when I like a certain worldview, I try to make it happen.
This leaves us with a deckbuilder who likes hybrid decks resulting in a combo-control shell, who likes to buck what other people think. I am fully aware that this is a dangerous combination, and one which is likely to end to disaster.
So yeah, it may very well result in a better deck if you cut the Tendrils package. But I WANT it to work, so I'm going to put the effort in to see if I can get it to work.
TL;DR: if you want a deck that actually works and is good and refined and awesome and stuff, stick with Rector or Scapewish (or someone else's lists). Feel free to ignore me as I try to force this to work. If I was actually smart, I would just shake my head and walk away admitting that it can't be done / the legacy meta isn't there yet. Unfortunately, I'm not smart :P
@ future fit: I think tendrils and helm are win-more in the sense that future sight with one top and some mana acts as a super charged draw engine. However, there is the possibility of adding an unrelated combo package because we'll dominate the board until we draw it out.
Yeah, so 1-of Laboratory Maniac in the SB (fetchable by Living Wish) could be your "combo-win" (Future Sight + Top=draw your deck within a few turns, or leave Helm in to draw your deck immediately). They try and remove it? You just win in response. If you really want to go nuts, add a single MD Thought Lash, but this would be unnecessary. At any rate, Living Wish>Tendrils for versatility, and Lab Maniac gets around Leyline of Sanctity/Solitary Confinement (although drawing your deck means you could probably deal with those, but whatever).
Future fit meets wish fit? I'm sold!
If only you could Living Wish for Tendrils =(
Hmm i do have a foil Future Sight and Living Wishes somewhere, i likey :P
Living Wish would still make a really good 2-of. Wish for Lab Maniac to win, win for Magus of the Future if you're well-positioned but don't have your Future Sight out, wish for Thragtusk if you're in a poor position. You don't need to dilute the SB much with it, just a few targets. But if you really want to go crazy with 3 or 4 of them, then add in a Leveler or Diving Witch to win without Future Sight/Top (Double wish + Top with 8 mana = win the game next turn) but that's probably overboard. At any rate, once you actually have Future Sight and Top out, you're in a fantastic position, which is why I think Living Wish is good to seal the deal. I think your list suffers from trying to do too many things. I think the EE+Ruins combo can be safely cut (just add the 3rd Deed back in). Colorless lands are mediocre as land in such a color-intensive list. I think the Phyrexian Tower could be cut as well, leaving in Stronghold though, because recurring Thragtusks and Strixes and Coiling Oracles can be pretty good.
Good to hear progress happening. I came to similar conclusions about Jace as you did (and Gabe is starting to as well in some cases). There needs to be better paths to assemble the combo or even get out Future Sight. The card is just the stones.
I don't really WANT to go down the 5-color path, but it might be what it takes. Rectors for easy access to Future Sight, Burning Wish for Tendrils. I mean, it's worth considering that we DO have Chromatic Lantern and City of Brass to play around with, and 3 is one of our "magic numbers." Lantern also makes Fetches tap for mana, and ramps by itself. I'm really trying to avoid looking into that avenue too much, but blegh. And yeah, having Future Sight out is just retarded. It's so hard to lose with a resolved Future Sight if you're at all stabilized when you get it. So much value.
I think i'm going to run the Dutch Legacy Championship with 4-color Rector-Science :D
Mainboard (60)
22 Lands
2 Bayou
1 Flooded Strand
2 Forest
1 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
1 Savannah
2 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
15 Creatures
3 Academy Rector
4 Baleful Strix
2 Coiling Oracle
2 Eternal Witness
4 Veteran Explorer
23 Other spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Diabolic Intent
1 Future Sight
2 Living Wish
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Omniscience
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
Sideboard (15)
1 Karakas
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Thragtusk
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Memoricide
1 Nether Void
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Thoughtseize
Why? Because it's awesome ^^
This is what I've come to for a Future-fit list:
Lands
2 Island
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
3 Forest
3 Bayou
3 Tropical Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
Creatures
3 Baleful Strix
2 Thragtusk
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Coiling Oracle
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
Spells
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Grim Tutor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Future Sight
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Brainstorm
3 Living Wish
Sideboard:
1 Thragtusk
1 Pernicious Deed
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Negate
1 Trygon Predator
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Magus of the Future
1 Sphinx of Jwar Isle
I really like that Future Sight is absolutely insane power-level wise. For 5 mana, the same cost as a Thragtusk, you basically win the game. 3 Wish and 2 Grim Tutor are your alternative ways to get Future Sight/Magus of the Future. Lab Maniac is instant-win in case all else fails once you draw your deck off of Top. The MD Thrun might be unnecessary but I don't know what I should replace it with, maybe Lorescale Coatl? Grim Tutor is really wonderful to get a Deed, Future Sight or whatever else you may need, all without them knowing what card you got. I think Jace in the SB is probably not necessary, but it's nice to have an alternate win-con and it's useful vs control decks. The SB is kind of thrown together, but maybe some un-counterable threat would just be better than Jace, anyway (More Thruns? Gaea's Revenge? I don't know).
New Future Fit list:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Starved Rusalka
1 Arbor Elf
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Primeval Titan
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Brainstorm
3 Living Wish
2 Grim Tutor
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Jace the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Future Sight
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Magus of the Future
1 Acidic Slime
1 Angel of Despair
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Negate
Sorry been not following the thread receContro Just to ask, is the future sight bug the direction the decks going?
@EPICLEVEL
Isnt the deck trying to do too much? What's the Grim for? I understand the top combo but the tutor am puzzled.
Currently playing: BUG Nic Fit (combo /or control version)
First Future Fit fouldbvery well be the next Scapewish or Rectorfit, but the archetype of nic fit is pretty diverse as far as archetypes go in Legacy.
Second I'm testing Grim Tutor since Arianhood seems to like it. I have my doubts, but it don"t look terribad.
Third I could probably drop Thrun for deed or gsz, but I need testing before I drop the Stronghold Tower package or the Planeswalker package (though I have to say 3 JMS was one too many). Plus with so much library manipulation and thinning, it'll be hard not to assemble the draw engine by end game.
For the straight Future Sight versions going 4-5 colors, try Enlightened Tutor over Rector. You have to play a little tighter with mana sources, but you should have no trouble casting Future Sight. There's a little more flexibility (especially with Academy Ruins) and a little less susceptibility to things like StP and graveyard hate. It also allows you to hold back information (instant speed). Moat comes down a turn earlier against straight aggro. The significant drawback would come in that it is likely landing a turn later, so if you weren't doing board control the previous turn, you'd be in a worse position. You also lose a card, but if you're blowing them out with an enchantment, that won't matter so much.
Last edited by waSP; 10-23-2012 at 10:35 AM. Reason: Edit to address previous post not liking ET
Wanted to share my deck with you guys. Since all of you seems as grazy and out there as I am :)
My Gifts list
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Thrun, the Last troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Acidic Slime
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Dryad arbor
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
1 Unburial Rites
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Brainstorm
2 Gifts Ungiven
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the mind Sculptor
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Island
1 Plains
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
I've taken some inspiration from modern's UW Tron with Unburial Rites. Right now i'm not able to hard cast Iona before sideboard. Unburial Rites has proven a really nice card. Both an awesome Gifts target, and a value card when you draw it. I have some issues with casting Jace, with the current mana base. But it's not to bad of a problem.
Will play the deck at a convention in 2 weeks. Can make a small report how the deck worked for me.
A few thoughts for you, Jokemon:
You're running Recurring Nightmare in a Gifts shell (which means you have easy access to it). I would definitely recommend a Sakura-Tribe Elder. STE makes Nightmare much better, because it's easy to get it into the graveyard. Also, you currently have 0 backup ramp sources behind Veteran. You can GSZ for Arbor, but I really don't like that play in Nic Fit. It's almost always better to save it for an Explorer or for something with more impact. STE ramps from 2->4 (an important number for Gifts), and probably fogs a critter on the way out.
I'm not sure Iona is the Unburial target you want. It has a very severe problem in that it's legendary, and Karakas is EVERYWHERE right now because of Show & Tell. There are two possibilities I would like to suggest: Rune-Scarred Demon and Angel of Serenity. RSD enables a sick chain with Gifts, where you can Gifts for Unburial+Demon, then bring him back and demonic tutor with a 6/6 flyer in play. Usually, unless you need to tutor for something else, you tutor for Recurring Nightmare. Assuming you have something in your graveyard, you can proceed to loop Demon through Nightmare, then, to tutor for anything you could possibly want. This is obviously back-breaking. Angel of Serenity is something I've been eying for Nic Fit usage for a while now -- I suspect that it's worse than Angel of Despair for the Show & Tell hate, because of Sneak Attack and Omniscience (which it doesn't hit). However, for something like your deck, I could definitely see it -- it brings a 5/6 flying body, and it probably wraths their board when it comes in. Then, unlike O-Ring, they don't get the creatures back when it dies -- they go back to their hand, which means that even if the Angel dies, you still don't have to worry about their board state for another turn or two. It buys a ton of time. You can also use it lategame to mass regrow three dead creatures, as well, which is very powerful. Ancestral Recalling Thragtusk, Witness, Witness is stupid.
Why no Sun Titan? When you're not going for Unburial+dude, Sun Titan makes Gifts retarded. Something like:
Sun Titan
Recurring Nightmare
Eternal Witness
Green Sun's Zenith
Is usually an unstoppable pile -- whatever they do, you get everything. Relatedly, you need a 2nd Witness for a deck like this.
Liliana of the Veil is completely unnecessary here, and those slots can be used much better. You don't need her as a discard outlet for your unburial creature, because you can Therapy yourself. You also have Brainstorm to shuffle back in.
Reflecting Pool will fix your mana problems. Pool is seriously underrated in legacy, and it does absolute wonders in 4+ color Nic Fit lists. Usually the natural response to Pool is "oh, well I'll waste your dual and then it does nothing /mandark laugh!" But in Nic Fit, you have basics, so they can't interrupt the Pool's awesomeness as easily.
TL;DR: my thoughts:
+Sun Titan
+Witness
+2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
-2 Liliana of the Veil
-Dryad Arbor
-Scavenging Ooze
+Reflecting Pool
-Windswept Heath
/=/Iona -> RSD/AoS, whichever you prefer
Note: Iona is perfectly fine in the sideboard for vs combo decks. But I think that g1, at least, you want something that's better against more of the legacy metagame in general, and doesn't have as many weaknesses.
Scavenging Ooze also should go to the board IMO, although I've actually been testing cutting mine from Rector in favor of Deathrite Shaman. Shaman is worse vs something like Dredge where you want to eat multiple cards, but the fact that he comes down a whole turn earlier vs something like Reanimator is actually pretty relevant. Deathrite is also sweet vs Goblins, because Lackey can't run into him, and they can't go like t1 Lackey, t2 cycle incinerator, swing -- being a 1/2 is actually surprisingly relevant. That's more experimental, though, and if you like Ooze I'd say move him to the board and don't worry about Deathrite for now.
I kind of think you might also want to consider dropping 1 Abrupt Decay for something like a Damnation...just to diversify your removal suite a bit, and give you more options when Gifting. But that's something that I dunno about really....depends on how much RUG and CBTop there is in your local meta.
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So, I went 3-1 with Scapewish last night at my local, only losing to an Emrakul after he topdecked exactly what he needed like 3 times in a row. /shrug. Nothing particularly of relevance except for the last round, where I got to do something -sweet-.
I'm playing vs Bant. He has out a Leyline of Sanctity, and we're in turns. I have 2 Deeds and 3 Burning Wishes left in deck, no non-mountain lands left in deck with both Valakuts in play, and like 6 mountains. I also have a Primeval Titan. He starts in turns at 18 (I'm turns 2 and 4, so I can't kill him with just Primeval). I also have a Top in play, but my Top is sucking dick and showing me garbage still. So on turn 4 of turns, my last turn, he's at 12. I Top. Garbage. I draw a Veteran Explorer, sac it to Phy Tower for the shuffle, and use one of the mana to Top. Garbage. I swing with Titan, putting him to 6. Top. Garbage. I Wood Elves for the shuffle. I Top. Garbage. I Green Sun for 0 to shuffle. I Top. Finally, a Burning Wish! I Wish for Pulse, Pulse his Leyline, then cast another Wood Elves from my hand, getting a Taiga and dealing the last 6 points. Ridiculous turn. Felt crazy good though =D
I'll be at GP Philly this weekend, if anyone else is going. I'll be playing the main event, and we'll see how that goes from there. I will definitely have my various Nic Fit decks on me, so odds are pretty good I'll be in at least one or two legacy side events at some point throughout the weekend. I think Steve's planning on doing a couple as well.
Arianrhod, what's your current Scapewish list?
I'm a bit embarrassed to ask the following question:
How do you use Huntmaster of the Fells in the Scapewish decks? Do you only play it for the 2 life and the token and just try to recur it? Does it ever flip?
Could I substiute them with Kitchen Finks since I don't own any Huntmasters atm?
ScapeWish:
4x Veteran Explorer
3x Wood Elves
2x Eternal Witness
3x Huntmaster of the Fells
2x Thragtusk
1x Primeval Titan
3x Pernicious Deed
3x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Burning Wish
4x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Scapeshift
2x Bonfire of the Damned
4x Taiga
3x Badlands
3x Bayou
2x Stomping Ground
4x Forest
3x Mountain
2x Swamp
1x Phyrexian Tower
2x Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
SB:
3x Red Elemental Blast
3x Thoughtseize
1x Slaughter Games
1x Tsunami
1x Pulverize
1x Damnation
1x Virtue's Ruin
1x Reanimate
1x Innocent Blood
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Scapeshift
I need to come up with a more convenient way to store my current lists so I don't have to go hunting for them every time someone asks for them =(
If you don't own Huntmasters and are unable/unwilling to pick them up, Finks is an "okay" substitute, but it's nowhere near as good. Hutnmaster does several things:
It does actually quite regularly flip. Just last night I had two Huntmasters that I was flipping back and forth and just buried my opponent in advantage. Flipping a Hunts to do 2 damage to a planeswalker, shoot a blocker, then crash in for 6 (4 of which tramples) is big game. The fact that he's split into 2 bodies (at least) is definitely relevant. Put it this way: Huntmaster is both defensive and offensive, compared to Thragtusk who is pretty defensive. Huntmaster makes two blockers and gains two life (usually worth a 2nd token). If you're on the beatdown, he applies a ton of pressure -- not just by himself, but because he forces your opponent to play around him. Like, they have to keep casting spells. If they flood out, he flips. If you just pass your turn without doing anything, he flips -- unless they save a Brainstorm for EoT usage, which by that point in the game is highly suboptimal. Scapewish can easily cast two spells in a turn to flip him back, and then the pressure is back -- after they've taken 2 damage, lost a dude, and you've gained 2 life and a dude. It's a ton of pressure.
It's also worth remembering that he's a 4-drop, which is pretty good in Scapewish in general, and is really hard for Miracles to counterbalance. The fact that he's a split body is very relevant in that matchup, and Miracles tends to run out of gas and end up topdecking a lot, which makes him even scarier because they have to use Top sub-optimally to keep him from flipping (draw on upkeep, re-cast Top).
I've been testing a Persecute over a Seize and goddamn is it amazing. With all the mono and 2color strategies in Legacy right now it's been backbreaking vs certain decks. It is a tad bit slow, but I've had it hit 3+ cards many times.
Also, thoughts on Firespout in the sb? I've really wanted a board wipe effect that wasn't Damnation against lots of decks. I'd like to leave Virtue's Ruin in there so I cut a Seize for it, and I have been playing with Pyroclasm/Spout and like it a lot. I wish for it a lot more than say Slaughter Games.
Still that leaves me with cutting REBs to max out on Tseizes and I'm not sure thats right. REB seems pretty potent. My desire for Wish targets is strong ;/.
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