[Deck] The Rock

[lavafrogg]

@Lavafrogg

I understand his 4 therapy in maindeck. When I play bw deadguy tokens, therapy is the best discard. Because you just name the card that is going to hinder you NOW, after he puts the spirits on the field, he just rips his hand off. Also, if the first therapy misses, he's ok - because the opponent didn't have the card that hinders him.

However, I agree that therapies should be paired with pointed discard.

I think that therapy is a dumb card, when you can hit with it. For me this means game 2 and 3 against combo and control. If you are blind guessing against a combo deck on turn 1 you essentially are doing nothing to stop them from killing you on turn 2. If he wants to beat combo, he needs more disruption.

[.Ix]

@Ix: I like your deck concept. I was working on brewing something similar after seeing the concept in a SCG article. However, I have a major major issue with your list: 11x 3cmc cards with not filtering is a quick way to lose the game to BoB. I sopped this idea when my list hit 7x 3cmc. Yours must kill you all the time!

Actually, I've never died to my own Bobs. I have a bunch of cards that can gain life: Jitte, SOLAS, and Ooze. I can also turn him off by pitching him to Therapy when I can't risk life loss. (This is also a great way to use extra Thalias, btw.) If you're really worried about that, Deathrite Shaman should help.

@lavafrogg / Sughayyer

I pack 2-3 Duress in the SB when I think the meta will have more combo. It's usually not that good in the maindeck because of all the aggro around here.

[Sughayyer]

@frogg
that's why I said it should be paired with other 1 cmc discard spells :)

I used to run 3 therapies, 3 inquisitions of kozilek, 1 thoughtseize

[Sughayyer]

Right now I'm not sure wich version I should run because I don't know what to expect from my meta (couldn't play for a few weeks, a teacher's job is ruthless near the end of the year).

This is just a random rambling, though.... here I feel at ease to blow it out :p

[paladin3056]

This is just a question but would it be possible for us to create a transformational SB? since some decks run SFM, Thalia, Lingering Souls, etc and some don't, but each deck has the same core cards:
4 Deathrite Shaman (can this be considered a core card)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary (no goyfs since some don't play them here)
4 Swords to Plowshares
2-3 Abrupt Decay (I think this is considered a core card with its versatility)
Any Discard package

Then by shifting a few cards around you can get a fixed transformation SB where MD is good against Aggro and Control and post SB good against combo and control. Anyway this is just a suggestion you can shoot down any way you want.

[lavafrogg]

This is just a question but would it be possible for us to create a transformational SB? since some decks run SFM, Thalia, Lingering Souls, etc and some don't, but each deck has the same core cards:
4 Deathrite Shaman (can this be considered a core card)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary (no goyfs since some don't play them here)
4 Swords to Plowshares
2-3 Abrupt Decay (I think this is considered a core card with its versatility)
Any Discard package

Then by shifting a few cards around you can get a fixed transformation SB where MD is good against Aggro and Control and post SB good against combo and control. Anyway this is just a suggestion you can shoot down any way you want.

The problem with this is that there are really only three cards we can agree on. Dark confidant, knight of the reliquary and swords to plowshares.

Any other card is played by some and not by others. We have been working to define what this deck is supposed to do for the last forever. All we know us we are somewhere between GBW Deadguy and NicFit with the closest relation to dark horizons.

[lavafrogg]

Right before I post this I want everyone to know I fully accept the flames and bullshit that we are about to discuss....enjoy.

Expanding on the fact that none of us happen to play any of the same lists, for the most part. I have just hit a fountain of thought on the matter. As I was laying on my floor after getting home from a nice walk (Arizona is so nice for 9 months out of the year if you love the outdoors for those three months you stay inside) I was thinking about the fact that we don't even agree on what the rock deck should do.

This is really going to be a free thought from me to my computer and I am not exactly sure where I will wind up with my views of others but I hope this at least helps me in discussing the deck with other members on the forum, hopefully you can see where I am.

So, here we are discussing and defining the rock as it stands today. Essentially, due to the lack of green, black, or white combos/extreme interactions we are left making a pile of our 60 favorite cards and calling it "rock" because that is what the original Deranged Hermit/Plaugelord deck called itself. This deck used the combo of the Rock, plaugelord, and his minions, deranged hermit, to control the board and swing in for sick damage.

As new cards were printed Spiritmonger became the beater and as for spells the new lists ran what were then considered the three strongest cards in the format: Duress, Deed and Vampiric Tutor. As all of this was mana intensive the lists ran mana acceleration like elves, birds and elders (you choose which card to pick someone probably played it).

At this point in time rock was stable. It had a clear-cut goal and a few different ways to get there that were mostly metagame dependent. The Rock was actually the deck that held combo down as it had strong outs to the combo monster of its day with gravitate and powerful discard spells with Vampiric Tutor ensuring that the correct card was drawn at the exact time it was needed.

Then it happened…Tarmogoyf was printed.

You no longer had to wait to win the game with a giant casting cost of a creature or a haunting echoes. You could now just take the route of Suicide Black decks and disrupt your opponent long enough to win the game with the world’s largest bear. Mana costs of cards were lessened as the power level of all cards went up therefore mana dorks were lost in the fray, some people even ran mox diamond to try and stay ahead of the format with mana acceleration. This puled the rock in multiple directions as some people wanted to play Deadguy/Suicide Variants and some people wanted to stay with the control the board, deed and drop a bomb plan of the slower rock decks. The mid range Rock lists sat in the middle of the spectrum not knowing what to do.

Cards came flying in from new sets… all of them lacking any game breaking combo/synergy but all of them being just awesome cards, knight/confidant/sfm/thoughtseize. "Goodstuff" lists were born as the GBW lists were so varied that people did not know what to classify them as. With the power level of cards and card selection growing older cards became ridiculously powerful, sylvan library/wasteland.

I will admit that goyf was the most magic defining card that we will most likely ever see. I do not feel like he is the best card that has been ever printed for the Rock archetype. That title belongs to the one and only Dark Confidant. He is the most often played card in any "rock" list and is the majority of the reason to play the deck in the first place.

At the current moment from fastest to slowest I would place the state of the Rock Metagame at :

GBW Eva- Deadguy Rock- Junk- The Rock- NicFit

From left to right these decks want to be the best at certain points in the game with Eva lists being blistering fast and NicFit lists wanting to drag the game out as long as possible. I have picked out some key cards in the lists that should help us differentiate lists from one another.

Eva and its Variants- These lists want to disrupt the opponent as much as possible and seal the deal before any significant cards can be played. Mana disruption is at its premium in the first few turns of the game so dark ritual is often used to power out early hymn to tourachs and sinkholes. Tarmogoyf is played as the finisher of choice and the other slot is either tombstalker to finish the game quickly or dark confidant to keep the disruption flowing. Around 8 creatures.

Key Cards-Tarmogoyf, hymn, sinkhole, ritual. 4 Thoughtseize

Deadguy Rock and its Variants- These decks want to establish a strong early game and ride that to victory before any endgame cards can hit the table. Here Tarmogoyf and Dark Confidant team up to ensure that a powerful 2 drop hits the table and dominates the game. Knight of the Reliquary or SFM can make an appearance here but only for their ability to finish games. This deck has little staying power and will use wasteland and vindicate to buy itself more turns or use the vindicates to blow up anything that gets on the field. No late game cards played as the deck does not want to let the game get that far. Around 12 creatures.

Key Cards- Hymn, Vindicate, Goyf, 4 Thoughtseize, Dark Confidant

Junk- Junk is in the jack of all trades and in that junk players like to be prepared for anything that can be thrown at them. Multiple toolboxes can and should be used to ensure you have the cards you want when you want them. As the ultimate midrange deck it suffers in the early and late games and needs to make it to the mid game to build an advantage and take that advantage to victory. Green Sun's Zenith will be strongest here as a 4 of in that its versatility is strongest in mid range decks. Swords to plowshares can now reliably be used without worrying about the life gain ruining your day. Knight of the Reliquary is a power card and is your main beater of choice. Dark Confidant is a game breaker and will be killed on spot. The last spot is either Tarmogoyf in a combo heavy/super aggro environment where you need the big green wall down to not die, or SFM in a slower meta where you can stretch her legs with equipment choices. Acceleration is now needed to help gain a step on an opponent. Very few late game cards played. Discard is used to pre-answer problems and not shut down a player. 16+ creatures.

Key Cards- Knight of the Reliquary(plus toolbox), Dark Confidant,4 Green Sun's Zenith(plus toolbox), goyf/SFM, 6-8 targeted discard only, low removal numbers

The Rock- This deck lives on the later game. It wants to be able to sit back and let the good cards flow in. The usual team of Confidant/Knight is played but Rock players will stick to Tarmogoyf to ensure that they make is to the point of the game where they get to cast their powerful planeswalkers, read in their libraries and spin their tops. Garruk will be played to out bomb a control player when they try to stabilize the board with a terminus/jace. Sensei's Divining top will be played to ensure that Dark Confidant does not deal lethal to its controller and that the card selection is absolutely pristine. Lots of removal is played between the main and the board to keep life totals high in the early game. Acceleration can be played to speed up the game. Green Sun's Zenith is to help find silver bullets/more knights. 12-14 creatures.

Key Cards- 2 GSZ(plus 2 creaure toolbox),Sylvan Library/Sensei's Divining Top. Garruk Relentless, Dark Confidant, Tarmogoyf, 3-6 targeted discard, 6-9 removal spells main.

NicFit- Originally I did not think this was a rock deck, it uses green mana acceleration to play the bombiest cards it can find backing it up with black discard and white removal. This really seems like the deck that the original rock was meant to be. Acceleration is provided by Veteran Explorer. Discard is cabal therapy backed by more targeted removal. Green Sun's Zenith is used to allow a giant toolbox of awesome silver bullets and game winners. Other options include Academy Rector into anything dumb, Pernicious Deed into Titans and pretty much anything you feel like. Goyf/Knight/Bob/SFM are not played. Top is an auto include. Creature count is based on creativity of deck builder but are almost all 1-2 of's.

Key Cards- Veteran Explorer, Cabal Therapy, Pernicious Deed, huge killer monsters, Top

With all of that being said there are some popular cards that can be seen in multiple archetypes that can gum up the works for the rest of the classification but pretty typically if you play any slower cards you are sowing down your list and are moving out into deeper water. You don't want to be caught as an Eva player dicking with a top while your NicFit Opponent does the same thing from across the table. You are better off running more disruption and trying to kill your opponent while he wastes mana digging for answers.

Using these loosely based guidelines I am going to try to classify some popular lists from our forum and SCG tourneys.


This is from the start of the rock thread:

Dark Horizons, 4th Place at SCG Open: Charlotte:

3 Mox Diamond
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Gerrard’s Verdict
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
4 Vindicate
1 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
3 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
Board:
4 Engineered Plague
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Extirpate
3 Kataki, War’s Wage

With the heavy amounts of discard, 4 thoughtseize/4 Hymn/2 verdict, 8 removal spells and the low creature count this deck wants to end the game fast. It uses Top to help when he needs a certain card to win and even plays 1 deed to try and reset after things go bad. This is a textbook Deadguy list by todays standards.

Lets see….

This is from the amazing Ian Ellis:
Maindeck:

Artifacts
1 Batterskull
3 Mox Diamond
2 Sensei's Divining Top

Creatures
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Dark Confidant
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Tarmogoyf

Enchantments
1 Sylvan Library

Instants
4 Swords to Plowshares

Legendary Artifacts
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Planeswalkers
2 Liliana of the Veil

Sorceries
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Thoughtseize

Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Lands
2 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath

Land Creatures
1 Dryad Arbor

Legendary Lands
1 Karakas

Okay, we have planeswalkers, a library/top split, green sun's zenith, 14 creatures, lower discard and higher removal…I would say this is about as Rock as one can get with a decklist. This brought Ian a SCG trophy and a super cool picture on the SCG website. Note this could easily be a rock list if he cut the GSZ and just played more goyfs…

Here is my dedicated junk list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger

Artifacts: 2
1 Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Sorceries: 8
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Thoughtseize

Planeswalkers: 3
3 Lilliana of the Veil

Instants: 7
4 Swords to plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay

Lands: 23
1 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
3 Bayou


1 Savannah
1 Maze of Ith
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Karakas
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor

Sideboard: 15
3 cabal therapy
3 Choke
3 Judge's Familiar
1 batterskull
1 sword of light and shadow
1 scavenging ooze
3 path to exile

A dedicated Eva list wolf be similar to the Rockguy list but go -3 diamond-3 top -1 deed -1 anything…+4 Sinkhole +4 Ritual and the NicFit List can easily be found in any list with 4 Veteran Explorers 4 Cabal Therapy as the start.

That is all I have for now but I am quit happy with this little rant I went on and I hope it helps us in the future with our discussions. Please message me with any feedback, or just leave it on the forum.

[raindrainxi]

lavafrogg's rant.

Whoa. If that was a rant, I'd want everyone to rant right now. LOL
As someone who wants to enter the GB Eva-Junk-Rock-NicFit archetype that was extremely helpful. I was able to differentiate which would really suit my style.
Thanks.

[Mirrislegend]

@ lavafrogg: nice post! You said it's just stream of consciousness, but it came out very coherent! I like it, but I must immediately note that the numbers of cards that define the categories is very off in some places. I can update with specifics later, but some of those need to be adjusted.

Also, something that isn't discussed here much, although I'm sure it's well sorted out in Deadguy and Maverick: how does Mother of Runes change the classification of a deck? She shows up in aggro lists and not in controlling lists (of any variants of any deck). Yet she is clearly not aggressive and is fairly controlling. By her useage, we could say that her inclusion in a deck pushes that deck AWAY from the aggro end of the spectrum. This is contrary to the decks she's played in. My main point is that I think Mom needs to be relabeled to "aggro card".

This is relevant because her controlling nature may drive someone to argue that she doesn't belong in an aggro shell (I have said this in the past). However, reconsidering her as a solid component of aggro decks, I think she must be exempted from auto criticism of her useage, even in GWB decks.

Her specific value in a given decks is up for debate, just like any card, but I don't think we can ever again simply say "She doesn't fit in this deck".

[lavafrogg]

@ lavafrogg: nice post! You said it's just stream of consciousness, but it came out very coherent! I like it, but I must immediately note that the numbers of cards that define the categories is very off in some places. I can update with specifics later, but some of those need to be adjusted.

Also, something that isn't discussed here much, although I'm sure it's well sorted out in Deadguy and Maverick: how does Mother of Runes change the classification of a deck? She shows up in aggro lists and not in controlling lists (of any variants of any deck). Yet she is clearly not aggressive and is fairly controlling. By her useage, we could say that her inclusion in a deck pushes that deck AWAY from the aggro end of the spectrum. This is contrary to the decks she's played in. My main point is that I think Mom needs to be relabeled to "aggro card".

This is relevant because her controlling nature may drive someone to argue that she doesn't belong in an aggro shell (I have said this in the past). However, reconsidering her as a solid component of aggro decks, I think she must be exempted from auto criticism of her useage, even in GWB decks.

Her specific value in a given decks is up for debate, just like any card, but I don't think we can ever again simply say "She doesn't fit in this deck".

Thanks! I just typed what I was thinking at the time and fully accepted that some of my numbers would be off but for the most part I am pretty close to what people are doing these days. I pretty much blame Tarmogoyf for all of our problems as a deck...if not we would all be playing 3+cc win cons like troll again...

Mother of Ruins is not that tricky of a card to place in a GWB list. She has a great home in Maverick, for the time being, because the deck wants to protect its creature based hosers and win conditions. I mostly see mom replaced by discard in the black based lists. They accomplish the same goal of being played early and protecting threats from removal or doubling as disruption(on board disruption). Thoughtseize is just going to be better for us in that it is not a dead card against combo and decks that pack sweepers.

Mother belongs in the decks that want to play aggressively and win before late game cards can be played. Most likely in Deadguy lists in that the Junk type lists that want to stay on the faster side of the mid game.

I think that GWB decks have better options in discard, and I would not play her over anything when I can cast 1cc discard and then play a bomb. I would most likely play 8 1cc discard over mother of ruins and possibly even some number of hymn to tourachs. We do not need combat based disruption when we can play and black cards we want to control the game state.

Many Maverick players side out Mom due to the fact that she has no board presence herself when the other deck has the edge on the late game. Deadguy players are playing her right now because she was strong in the metagame from a few months ago, before Show and Tell became so popular. Right now players do not need on board combat control they need interaction with players that do not want to interact with anyone or just do not care about a 1/1...think Miracles.

So long story short Mother of Runes<Thoughtseize/Inquisition.

[Mr. Safety]

So I definately land in the Junk range...but I use PW's and only 3x GSZ, lol. I think I'm playing the Rock, definately not Nic-Fit. I use PW's instead of SFM (2x Liliana, 1x Garruk Relentless), an extensive GSZ toolbox (Deathrite, Eternal Witness, Tarmogoyf, Ooze, Pridemage, Arbor), along with 5 targeted discards, 4 Hymns, 2x Phyrexian Arena, and 9 removals (4x Swords, 1x ADecay, 2x Maelstrom Pulse, 2x Pernicious Deed.) I round out the deck with a copy of Life from the Loam and 24 lands, no Moxen. Definate focus on Knights with utility lands like Treetop Village, Cabal Pit, Wasteland, Nantuko Monastary, Treetop Village, Volrath's Stronghold, and Bojuka Bog (still hunting for a Maze of Ith...coming soon!)

So I guess I play a confused mix between Junk/Rock. I guess...

[Mirrislegend]

Yea, I agree on Mom personally. But on other boards, I've run into people interested in her. I was just sharing that we can no longer auto squash Mom. She is viable, if not always optimal.

Comments on your dissertation!

Eva shell: I highly doubt that people use Dark Ritual is these days. And if it's GB or GWB, then probably even less. Also, I don't know if you can put a number on the Thoughtseizes. They'll definitely be played, but the numbers are not guaranteed. Also, if it is BW or GWB and they're playing Sinkhole, then they'll also certainly play Vindicate.

Deadguy shell: Again, I don't think you can list Thoughtseize as a guaranteed 4 of.

Junk shell: You can't say 4 GSZ. Definitely cannot. Fitting in Stoneforge package or other goodies requires adjusting GSZ. Both Ian and I play this breed, and we both play only 2 GSZ. The rest is very accurate, high five great success :)

Rock shell: Doesn't necessarily have any GSZ package. This type of deck may be controlling enough to just skip the utility and brutalize their opponent's board directly. High amount of removal is correct, but an important note is that it almost certainly contains Pernicious Deed. Also, I don't think Garruk is necessary to directly mention here. Instead, I would say this is the build that is most likely to play, and makes best use of, planeswalkers (usually Liliana of the Veil and/or Garruk Relentless). Planeswalkers can and do show up in the other builds, but that is very much up to the individual builder (and usually just a Liliana of the Veil; 1 to 3 copies).

Nic-Fit: I don't know this deck at all. But your description of it brings up an important point: filtering (best are Sensei's Divining Top and Sylvan Library) is fairly important in many of these archetypes. In fact, I believe Eva is the only one that would consider playing without it. All the other builds almost always use it. Deadguy should play it, but sometimes doesn't. Junk needs at least 2 (3 is great, 4 may be too much). Rock needs it too, and definitely wants at least 3 (4 is healthy, 5 is probably max but still viable)

@ Mr. Safety: That sounds like Rock to me. Not quite enough pressure/aggro to be Junk.

[lavafrogg]

Yea, I agree on Mom personally. But on other boards, I've run into people interested in her. I was just sharing that we can no longer auto squash Mom. She is viable, if not always optimal.

Comments on your dissertation!

Eva shell: I highly doubt that people use Dark Ritual is these days. And if it's GB or GWB, then probably even less. Also, I don't know if you can put a number on the Thoughtseizes. They'll definitely be played, but the numbers are not guaranteed. Also, if it is BW or GWB and they're playing Sinkhole, then they'll also certainly play Vindicate.

Deadguy shell: Again, I don't think you can list Thoughtseize as a guaranteed 4 of.

Junk shell: You can't say 4 GSZ. Definitely cannot. Fitting in Stoneforge package or other goodies requires adjusting GSZ. Both Ian and I play this breed, and we both play only 2 GSZ. The rest is very accurate, high five great success :)

Rock shell: Doesn't necessarily have any GSZ package. This type of deck may be controlling enough to just skip the utility and brutalize their opponent's board directly. High amount of removal is correct, but an important note is that it almost certainly contains Pernicious Deed. Also, I don't think Garruk is necessary to directly mention here. Instead, I would say this is the build that is most likely to play, and makes best use of, planeswalkers (usually Liliana of the Veil and/or Garruk Relentless). Planeswalkers can and do show up in the other builds, but that is very much up to the individual builder (and usually just a Liliana of the Veil; 1 to 3 copies).

Nic-Fit: I don't know this deck at all. But your description of it brings up an important point: filtering (best are Sensei's Divining Top and Sylvan Library) is fairly important in many of these archetypes. In fact, I believe Eva is the only one that would consider playing without it. All the other builds almost always use it. Deadguy should play it, but sometimes doesn't. Junk needs at least 2 (3 is great, 4 may be too much). Rock needs it too, and definitely wants at least 3 (4 is healthy, 5 is probably max but still viable)

@ Mr. Safety: That sounds like Rock to me. Not quite enough pressure/aggro to be Junk.

I am going to address the cards one by one as a response, but do remember that people can play whatever cards they want. I am just trying to define "pure" lists so people can see where they fall. Cards like Vindicate/Thoughtseize are super versatile and can be played in all of these lists so it would be silly to list them in all builds, especially when people omit them whenever they want. As for the Junk shell, I am treating junk like Maverick/b and in that it is the list I am playing right now (I get to say what I want!) I think that people playing less than 4 GSZ are wrong when they want a pure "junk" approach.

Thoughtseize: The more aggressive the deck, the less they can whiff on a thoughtseize if they have a turn 3 inquisition and see a jace...they lose. They want the game over fast and do not care about the two life loss. The slower the deck, the more they are using 1cc discard to buy time and that is where Inquisition can come in to take a low CC card.

Dark Ritual: In eva/suicide builds the defining play is turn one dark ritual-thoughtsieze-hymn/confidant-go. Anything that does not want to play that blisteringly fast is going from eva and to the Rockguy type builds which are not as fast but should have more disruption.

Pernicious Deed: This can be played in any GB deck and look like a good idea, the truth is that it is slow and dead against combo decks, this limits it to the sideboard in almost all lists.

Finally, I would say that Ian and Matt play more Rock lists that Junk. I am sorry but I cannot remember what list you play at the moment. Matt is the king of the shit ton of removal into planeswalker and library plan. Ian plays tops/libraries heavy removal and planeswalkers which I am also going to say bumps him to the Rock category. The "low" creature count also fits the form.

Then again remember, the fact that we cannot agree is why I made the post in the first place :)

Mr Safety: The problem with your list is hymn. Hymn is an aggro card but your list definitely wants the game to go long, this is also seen in your high removal and recursion plan. You cannot end the game before the hymn advantage wears off so you are most likely better dropping hymn. Once you do that you are pretty much textbook rock with a heavier GSZ toolbox.

[Fakedylan]

Following this thread closely things seem to be going in a good direction. Thanks again to Lavafrogg for the informative post. So I've been thinking about my list a lot and it varies quite differently from what Lavafrogg posted but I feel like it falls in the Junk range of things.

I posted my list earlier but I'll post it again since it's quite a bit different.

Land: 23
2 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Maze of Ith
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Karakas
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains

Creatures: 14
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Dryad Arbor This is my 24th land
2 Stoneforge Mystic

Spells: 23
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Life from the Loam
3 Thoughtseize
3 Vindicate
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Lingering Souls
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Darkblast
1 Batterskull

Sideboard: 15
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Serenity
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Choke
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Hymn to Tourach

So far I have to say it's doing quite well and I'm proud of coming up with the list since I've been playing it to some success on Cockatrice and in my local meta. Some of this was of course with the help of the forum with the points people gave me on the deck the first time I posted it; It's lead me to make some great changes I feel. Ok now to the point of the post my thoughts on card choices. Deathrite shaman, maybe loved by some hated by others but here is why I play with it. With Fetches, Loam, and Darkblast I feed this thing with ease. With Loam, Vindicate, and Wasteland I have a high chance of blowing out games by simply keeping people off mana. O and this plan also feeds Deathrite quite well since I can eat a lot of my opponents lands instead of my own shrinking my Knights. Deathrite allow's access to abuse resources helping us play around daze / spell pierce. One thing I'd like to point out is he also eats a removal spell sometimes. Which makes one less to possibly keep Bob alive or even more importantly get Stoneforge to come into play and stay alive. As for the 2 Dredge cards, I feel like they're important to the decks game plan. Not only does loam allow us to abuse Wasteland but it adds food for Deathrite if he sticks around long enough. As for darkblast it can be very handy removal not only once again to feed the shaman but to get loam into the yard. The meta as it stands still has a ton of important X/1's that must be removed and darkblast add's a twist since it becomes a re-usable resource that benefits the decks game plan. This means possibly limiting the need of using a swords or abrupt decay later in the game for unflipped delver's, Bob's, Noble (keeping them off mana), Snapcaster and more. I feel like 2 dredge card's work atm though I'll admit I'd like more but cannot find room. I'm quite tried from work so I'm going to stop my post short (sorry long day). As I said I'm going to keep working on this and I know there's room for improvement but the list is feeling very solid vs a good chunk of the field.

Edit: I'd like to add one thing. This deck plays weak vs. very heavy aggro if it has a bad start, this is something I'm trying to figure out. The goblins match is horrid.

---Cheers Jon

[sdematt]

If you want to shore up against "aggro," run either Zealous Persecution or Path to Exile in the board to slow them down.

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

Fakedylan: Keeping with the theme of the day, I would classify your deck as a Rock list instead of a Junk list. Heavy removal, lower discard, library manipulation and recursion are all going to lend to a slower game that want to play through the mid game to win. This would also explain your weakness to fast decks in your deck wants to get past the early rush and win. I would suggest tarmogoyfs and the full set of plows as first steps to beat fast aggro. If goyfs are not an option then a set of paths in the board would help in the first few turns.

I am not trying to be a douche with the names, I just think it will help us grow as a rock community. With similar names/classifications you will have better results in comparing your lists to other lists similar to yours, and in this case it would be other rock lists like SDEmatts. It will also help new players develop their deck lists in certain directions.

[somethingdotdotdot]

I used to play this deck a couple of years back (before dark horizons was an established archetype) and played a tempo-ish mid-range deck with sinkholes and vindicates. I've since moved away from this sort of deck in general, but I've always had a soft-spot in my heart for these mid-range GBW decks. Since it seems like this deck got a lot of new toys with RTR (most noticably DR Shaman and Abrupt Decay), I just brewed up a more aggressive-ish midrange list and after some goldfishing it seems like it may run alright.

18 Creatures:
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Dark Confidant
4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Stoneforge Mystic

20 Spells:
3x Lingering Souls
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Thoughtseize
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Body and Mind (I'm not sure if this is the correct choice for this slot--I was thinking that SoLaS may work)

22 Lands:
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Marsh Flats
2x Windwepth Heath
2x Scrubland
2x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Gaea's Cradle
3x Wasteland

I decided to run a total of 7x 3cc cards because the DR shaman ramp is sometimes a bit sporadic and he really seems to be at his best when pinging for 2 and eating opponents' graveyards. I'm also a bit torn on whether the goyfs should be in the deck--I was considering a replacement of 3x scavenging ooze and 1x stoneforge mystic. SoBaM then feeds the ooze+dr shamans.

A cool thing that i noticed was that cradle is pretty good with lingering souls--a single copy of souls usually turns cradle into a GGGG producer (which also helps ooze if I were to run them).

I decided against liliana for two main reasons: 1) she's another 3cc which hurts the curve and 2) her discard is too symmetrical without recursion to break it. Any suggestions would be appreciated. =)

[sdematt]

Life from the Loam could help break the symmetry.

-Matt

[somethingdotdotdot]

I know loam breaks the symmetry, but then the question becomes what do I take out for the 2-3 lili's and 1-2 loams. The deck itself also doesn't really need loam that much, with the only real targets being wastelands and maybe a fetchland or two to stabilize. It doesn't really play that well with DR shaman or KoTR most of the time and I don't really get that much value off of it when I'm running it just to support a 2-of. I personally think the souls are better than the lili's right now to pressure jace and trade with cliques.

[sdematt]

I know loam breaks the symmetry, but then the question becomes what do I take out for the 2-3 lili's and 1-2 loams. The deck itself also doesn't really need loam that much, with the only real targets being wastelands and maybe a fetchland or two to stabilize. It doesn't really play that well with DR shaman or KoTR most of the time and I don't really get that much value off of it when I'm running it just to support a 2-of. I personally think the souls are better than the lili's right now to pressure jace and trade with cliques.

I agree, I'm just saying if you wanted to, Loam would help :P

-Matt