[Deck] The Rock

[Sughayyer]

Right now I need some help deciding. I already know lavafrogg's oppinion on that one (and I guess that I know mirri's too) so I'm mainly adressing that question to matt and ian (also, everyone feel free to answer, I don't mean to be a douche).
The fact is, I don't know what to go for: mox + goyf, or shaman + sfm, or maybe try to fit mox + shaman + goyf....? I know it all depends on my list and on the meta. As for the list, it's basically the same shell (I'll post it again), and on the meta there is 1 dredge, 1-3 gw, 2 esperblades, 1-2 burn, 1-2 merfolk, 1-3 goblins, a few combo decks (can't measure exactly). There may be also some rogue decks or variations (well, duh).

The basic shell:

3 inquisition of kozilek
3 thoughtseize
3 sensei's divining top
4 plowshares
3 abrupt decay
2 maelstrom pulse
2 liliana of the veil
4 dark confidant
4 knight of the reliquary

from here it goes:
+3 mox diamond
+4 tarmogoyf
+1 maelstrom pulse
+1 garruk relentless

OR

+3 deathrite shaman
+3 stoneforge mystic
+1 jitte
+1 sword of fire and ice
+1 batterskull

The lands are as usual:
4 waste
8 fetches
3 scrublands
2 bayou
1 horizon canopy
1 maze of ith
1 karakas
1 plains
1 forest
1 swamp

The shaman build leaves more sb space, since I won't need to run rest for the weary nor bojuka bog. I'm also running 2 deeds, 2 plagues, 2-3 o-rings, 3 extirpate/surgical, 3 hymn to tourach.

I know the mox+goyf build is retarded against combo, and is also way faster. But I'm afraid shaman will make goyf lose value, and it is also tempting to strap some equipment on any extra body that appears in the deck.

So, well, maybe I'm asking too much, but it's hard to decide :p every suggestion/comment will be welcome! (PS: I actually tested both versions, and I like both)

[lavafrogg]

Right now I need some help deciding. I already know lavafrogg's oppinion on that one (and I guess that I know mirri's too) so I'm mainly adressing that question to matt and ian (also, everyone feel free to answer, I don't mean to be a douche).

I am not sure how I feel about my opinion being already known, but I guess I am proud that I am that opinionated online.

[Valtrix]

I think SFM is very strong against most decks, especially for this deck since he can often be protected through discard. As such, I personally would like to see SFM in the list, regardless of the other choices. I don't really like Mox Diamond in this deck. Deathrite Shaman, Hierarch, and GSZ -> Dryad Arbor all seem like superior mana acceleration choices to me since they don't give you card disadvantage, and they feel much more consistent. Plus, they can turn into guys holding a Jitte later. I like to look at it this way: How many games do you think having an extra mana turn one is going to matter more than having an extra land in the long run? To me it seems like very few games will actually be won by having that extra mana on turn one, compared to just having consistent mana drops on your turns.

[Hanni]

I think SFM is very strong against most decks, especially for this deck since he can often be protected through discard. As such, I personally would like to see SFM in the list, regardless of the other choices. I don't really like Mox Diamond in this deck. Deathrite Shaman, Hierarch, and GSZ -> Dryad Arbor all seem like superior mana acceleration choices to me since they don't give you card disadvantage, and they feel much more consistent. Plus, they can turn into guys holding a Jitte later. I like to look at it this way: How many games do you think having an extra mana turn one is going to matter more than having an extra land in the long run? To me it seems like very few games will actually be won by having that extra mana on turn one, compared to just having consistent mana drops on your turns.

And with Shaman, no horrible useless topdecks.

[lavafrogg]

Yay, talking about SFM AND Shaman!!!

The SFM build is good against everything except combo where you just want a goyf to beat face. The fast aggro match is mostly a push in that goyf would wall the aggro while SFM can get a jitte to equip to and dude you have available to wreck aggro. The way to shore up the combo match up is to run the disruptalicious Cabal Therapy and learn how to hit blind against 75% of your matches, this is made easier by the fact that you are running shaman and dryad arbor as flashback fodder.

So with shaman producing all colors of mana, would the idea of splashing red and siding in a life from the loam and blasts be an option against Show and Tell? I am trying to find a way to beat the hell out of that deck. The loam will ensure that we cannot get wasted off of red and the blasts will counter any show and tell that gets through the discard wall and could also kill jace in other matches...It is most likely a terrible idea...

[Sughayyer]

Frog, against sneak & show I think the deck's already optimal. One of the tournaments I won when I was playing dark horizons there were 3 of them and were easy wins, even when they misdirected hymn (it happened 2 or 3 times). Now, agains omniscience, 3 o-ring are enough. Or if the meta is small and you feel you can spare a few sb slots, run angel of despair, and get ready to laugh.

[Sughayyer]

Edit functions don't seem to work.

Frog, if you test with red, post results. I once tried to add blue (snapcaster and brainstorm) but I gave up (I had to forfeit the moxen to fit it all, and 4 colors without any fixing felt scary)

[Mirrislegend]

The power of Mox Diamond lies in your two drops:
- If you play Mox and a turn 1 Tarmogoyf, nobody cares
- Mox into turn 1 Stoneforge makes any opponent shit their britches

Despite the anti-synergy, I believe Shaman belongs in Goyf builds over SFM builds. Consider these important aspects that SFM brings to the table, that Goyf builds lack: Life gain, effective card advantage, utility, and inevitability. Shaman fills these holes in a SFM-less deck.

Thus, from the perspective of playing to Mox's strengths or shoring up Goyf's weaknesses, I present this advice to Sug. Pick between these two packages:

3 Deathrite
4 Goyf
2 flex

or

3 Mox
3 Stoneforge
3 equipment

These choices will be stronger. Which one to pick is vey much a personal choice in my opinion. Either will work.

[sdematt]

Right now I need some help deciding. I already know lavafrogg's oppinion on that one (and I guess that I know mirri's too) so I'm mainly adressing that question to matt and ian (also, everyone feel free to answer, I don't mean to be a douche).
The fact is, I don't know what to go for: mox + goyf, or shaman + sfm, or maybe try to fit mox + shaman + goyf....? I know it all depends on my list and on the meta. As for the list, it's basically the same shell (I'll post it again), and on the meta there is 1 dredge, 1-3 gw, 2 esperblades, 1-2 burn, 1-2 merfolk, 1-3 goblins, a few combo decks (can't measure exactly). There may be also some rogue decks or variations (well, duh).

What about:

-2 Liliana of the Veil

+3 tarmogoyf
+1 garruk relentless
+2 Deathrite Shaman
+3 stoneforge mystic
+1 jitte
+1 sword of fire and ice

Then, you lose Mox, but you get to have a sprinkling of everything. I know I was slightly against this with Ian's list a bit before, but he was also running Mox and jamming 0-1 Goyf, which I didn't like. This gives you a bit of both. I'm not a huge fan of SFM since I don't feel like I need it really anymore, but if I was adding in 4 slots, SFM would be up on the list.

Frog, if you test with red, post results. I once tried to add blue (snapcaster and brainstorm) but I gave up (I had to forfeit the moxen to fit it all, and 4 colors without any fixing felt scary)

I ran red a while ago if you guys remember, taking out something to add in a Badlands, but now with Deathrite, that might not even be necessary. I ran it for Ancient Grudge, and for the meta at the time, it was fine. I'm just not sure how consistent you'll be with it. I think it would be better to stay in 3 colours unless you're splashing for a singleton ballbusting sideboard card., but if you're hoping your Deathrites are going to let you cast 4 REB out of the board, I think you're going to have a bad time hoping your plan comes together.

-Matt

[Mr. Safety]

Life from the Loam could help break the symmetry.

-Matt

As does one of the best green drops of all time: Eternal Witness

[Mr. Safety]

Mr Safety: The problem with your list is hymn. Hymn is an aggro card but your list definitely wants the game to go long, this is also seen in your high removal and recursion plan. You cannot end the game before the hymn advantage wears off so you are most likely better dropping hymn. Once you do that you are pretty much textbook rock with a heavier GSZ toolbox.

I'm interested to continue this line of discussion, because I dropped the heavy loam focus (down to 1) and put in a 2nd Liliana, a Garruk Relentless, and a set of Hymns to replace the Loam/Raven's Crime package I was using.

In testing so far, I would say that Hymn fills in a crucial segment of the curve by having a strong turn 2 play. I could get behind dropping 1-2 Hymns for Sylvan Library, but that would be for a different reason than the one you mentioned (to get some filtering into the deck.) Maybe its time to pull the same trick that sdematt recommends and put the Hymns into the sideboard. That frees up 3 slots maindeck because I dropped one for Kitchen Finks. I've been playtesting a one-of maindeck as a GSZ target, and I have to say that it really suits my position on the 'sliding Rock scale.' My version gets stronger the longer the game goes, and Kitchen Finks has really been doing some great work for me. I ended up dropping the 4th Hymn for that, so three slots left. I'll most likely get a 3rd Phyrexian Arena into the maindeck, so it's really 2 slots...space fills up fast in this deck!

Suggestions? I could go Sylvan Library, SDT, or even Mirri's Guile.

[Mirrislegend]

@ Mr. Safety:

It cannot be Mirri's Guile. You can only chose between Sylvan Library or SDT. Both have their strengths, but Guile matches up to neither of them.

As for more specific advice on other card choices, can we see your list?

[Hanni]

It cannot be Mirri's Guile. You can only chose between Sylvan Library or SDT. Both have their strengths, but Guile matches up to neither of them.

As for more specific advice on other card choices, can we see your list?

In a more tempo-oriented list, I see nothing wrong with Mirris Guile (hehe). It's not like you're running CounterTop and need to spin top multiple times a turn, and while the draw on Sylvan is nice against Control, the difference in initial mana cost will be more relevant in aggro matchups. There are obvious advantages for both Top and Sylvan, as they are clearly stronger spells... but mana efficiency is pretty important too.

[Mr. Safety]

4x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Tarmogoyf
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Eternal Witness
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Kitchen Finks

3x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Thoughtseize
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Abrupt Decay
2x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Pernicious Deed
3x Phyrexian Arena
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Garruk Relentless
1x Life from the Loam

2x Bayou
2x Scrubland
1x Savannah
1 x Bojuka Bog
4x Verdant Catacombs
2 x Marsh Flats
1x Plains
1x Swamp
1 x Forest
1 x Cabal Pit
1x Tranquil Thicket
1x Barren Moor
1x Treetop Village
1x Volrath's Stronghold
4x Wasteland

[Mirrislegend]

I don't see the Hymns. Just missing a 60th card by my count.

Yea, Library and/or Top is definitely in order here. Given your relatively low number of shuffle effects, I'm going to say you cannot abuse Top to it's fullest. Hence, Library might be in order. On the flip side, Top plays pretty nicely with Loam (tap top, replacement of draw, top goes on top after dredge, right?). If that does work, maybe you should pick Top, just cuz it doesn't die to Deed (which is a very critical part of your build)

[Valtrix]

So, first off let me preface this by saying that I don’t have a ton of experience with BWG decks, so some of my comments might be uninformed. However, I’ve been toying with a decklist recently that I really like, and wanted some thoughts on it.

In constructing a decklist in BGW I had a few things which I thought were very important to me, which actually almost constructed the list by itself:

• I wanted to a strong game against creature decks. As such, I looked to Stoneforge Mystic to fill this role. Furthermore, Stoneforge mystic is great against control decks, so his inclusion seems like a strong choice in a lot of matchups. In fact I like him pretty much all games you aren’t against combo.
• I like to have interaction against “unfair” decks, so I wanted to lean towards a decent amount of discard. I also noted that SFM becomes quite a powerhouse when backed up with targeted hand removal, since you can more reliably get a Batterskull online without your opponent being able to deal with it very easily.
• I like some amount of ramp. My biggest problem with ramp though is that such cards become less good later. I think this is alleviated a bit by equipment, but it also led me to wanting to play Green Sun’s Zenith -> Dryad arbor as my main form of acceleration, since GSZ can be converted into value/utility creatures later in the game. Shaman is also pretty good, but I don’t like him in multiples and I think more cards can provide a lot more value. I also like that you can GSZ graveyard hate on turn 2 and to have the little extra bit of acceleration, so I just opt for one copy of Deathrite Shaman.
• I also like utility, so this cemented GSZ for me, since it gives just enough options at an aggressive cost. I just didn’t want to run too much utility, so I thought that Pridemage and Teeg were the only worthwhile creatures to run just to fetch with Zenith.
• I like a high density of creatures that can close the game quickly. Knight does the most in this role, but Tarmogoyf and Scavenging ooze fills a nice supporting role too. I like to have a good density of creatures that are just going to end the game quickly.
• As such, I don’t care for creatures like Dark Confidant, Mother of Runes, etc. because I don’t need to fiddle around with stuff like that when I can just bash for 4+ and end the game quickly.
• I like efficient answers to cards my opponents play, but I don’t really like paying very much for such answers, even if they’re flexible. Swords is a natural inclusion in white because of efficiency, with Abrupt Decay coming in as the next best answer to play. I just don’t think you really want to be in a place where you’re casting 3cc removal, so I skipped most of that.
• I like some late game/card advantage potential, so I thought the 2 libraries would work well to fit this role.

This led me to the following:

// Lands (22)
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
4 [JGC] Windswept Heath
1 [M11] Forest (3)
1 [CST] Plains (2)
3 [R] Savannah
1 [U] Scrubland
4 [JGC] Wasteland
2 [R] Bayou
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs

// Creatures
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [DDG] Knight of the Reliquary
2 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze
1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
2 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman

// Spells
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
1 [NPH] Batterskull
4 [ROE] Inquisition of Kozilek
3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
2 [LG] Sylvan Library

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 4 [FNM] Cabal Therapy
SB: 3 [TE] Choke
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 [SOM] Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 [DKA] Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 3 [CMD] Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor


The curve is 15 1cc, 17 2cc, 5 3cc. I feel this is a bit heavy on the 2cc for the mana producers to handle, so I think perhaps cutting one of the 2cc cards or maybe the 3 cost sword for another land might be in order. (By the way, I like the 3rd piece of equipment in the main, just not sure what sword is best.) Don’t look too much into the sideboard, it’s basically a generic sideboard I make when putting new lists together: “Answer combo, answer control, strengthen creature MUs, answer GY strategies, and have some versatile answers.”

So, no fancy tricks with removal or planeswalkers, mostly just good stuff. Like I said, I don’t really play this deck, so I could be completely off, but I’ve always liked this color combination and got excited putting a list together. It seems a bit more basic than a lot of lists I see here, but I like the simplicity the list brings: Play some disruption, have some flexible and cheap answers, and be able to dominate the combat phase with some very powerful creatures. Feel free the bash my thoughts and/or my list.

[KobeBryan]

I have a question...Why do you only use 1 deathrite shamen?

I know you have 4 green suns, but 1 deathrite? Are you using deathrite for ramping or for GY shenanigans?

[Sughayyer]

@ Valtrix

It feels a bit strange without dark confidant.... also, you could use some maelstrom pulse. It kills jace, and makes you not lose against a resolved entreat the angels or empty the warrens.

As for the sword, may I suggest fire and ice? It's NUTS.

Anyway, it seems a good start, please post results!

[ToasTer86]

Hey everyone,

The rock was the 2nd legacy deck I ever played against.
I came in with my standard / kitchen table deck and was just annihilated.
EVA Green / the rock got me interested in legacy and in the meanwhile i played budget decks.

Now I would really like to start playing the rock but i've been hearing bad things

Can you guys tell me how The Rock is doing and post some deck lists that are the best in your oppinion.

Thanks

[Sughayyer]

Hey, I finally come up with a list. Online testings (as non-reliable as they are) seems satisfactory. There's a tourney sunday, hopefully I'll have some great news.