I'd rather play Uvenwald Tracker. How many matchups would Granger be better overall? (I assume Elves and a few other matchups with X/1s.)Originally Posted by from Cairo
4x Waste played along side 3 Thalia and the KoTR seems pretty strong. Brings the land count up to 22 if I count correctly and seems to favor a higher creature count than burn.
Granger Guildmage is sweet against Maverick. Overall, I like the somewhat unusual approach.
Main, I think a Karakas is a must. I wonder why he didn't run it.
One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.
Looks really interesting. But doesn't stand a chance against Show-n-Tell Decks. I would definately run a Karakas main. And maybe a second in the side. Granger Guildmage is not that bad. I have tested it too, and both abilities were quite usefull.
I like how he is running STP instead of PtE to create harmony with Thalia and Wasteland.
Very interesting decklist. I used to hate playing against Granger Guildmage with ATS! But Noble Hierarch, Mother of Runes, and Thalia from Maverick? Lol
On a side note, I hope Return to Ravnica has some new cards for Zoo. The last time multicolour-focused editions came out we got Nacatl, Qasali Pridemage and Knight of the Reliquary.
One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.
How about this?
Small Zoo might be viable again. Besides Wild Nacatl, all the aggressive one-drop creatures suck pretty hard (Loam Lion, Kird Ape, Steppe Lynx). This one is disruptive while being aggressive. It's slightly awkward with Lavamancer, Goyf, and Punishing Fire though.
It shows how far Zoo has merged with Maverick when Punishing Fire is really considered a viable Burn spell in Zoo. It also shows how much power creep has affected creatures though, going from Savannah Lions (Rare, vanilla) to Elite Vanguard (Uncommon, vanilla) to Militant (Uncommon, potentially disruptive).
I doubt Militant will change small Zoo much. It could be a consideration if your meta is crawling with Pasts in Flames and Snapcaster Mages, but it hurts full playsets of our own creatures in every matchup.
Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.
Here's a weird list I'm trying out with the new Selesnya Charm:
Creatures: 18
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
Spells: 21
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Lightning Helix
2 Selesnya Charm
3 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa's Jitte
Mana: 21
3 Taiga
3 Savannah
2 Plateau
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Arid Mesa
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
Still thinking about whether I should add in basics or wastelands. I like the concept of the charm as it's flexible in three areas that the deck tries to focus on.
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That's quite a bit of delayed effects, between Jitte and Library. Don't get me wrong, I love both cards, but oftentimes in Zoo both end up being "I'll get something out of this next turn" whereas an aggressive deck like Zoo would like more immediate returns on investment. Has Jitte in Zoo ever seemed too mana-intensive and slow to you? Traditionally that's been the reason to only run it in the sideboard.
I'd suggest running basics of your primary colors. I built my small Zoo list to only have around 6 white mana symbols, and so I can get by without a Plains, but I'd feel a little naked without any basics at all. We're not RUG, which has cantrips, Stifles, and countermagic to help defend from hate. We're not Maverick, with Hierarchs and GSZ into Arbor to accelerate mana and smooth out colors. Zoo's manabase can already be a bit of a weakness; no need to exacerbate the problem.
As a Rancor user, I like the promise of Selesnya Charm, but the cost does seem high. If Charm can be used to take care of real fatties (those that dodge Bolt), the need for as many Paths may go down. Btw, I also love GSZ in Zoo, which allows a more toolboxy build. I might consider something like this when testing Charm:
-1-2 Pridemage
-1 Knight
+1 Scavenging Ooze
+2-3 Green Sun's Zenith
-1 Path
+1 Charm
-2 Jitte
-1 Sylvan
-2 Savannah/Canopy
-1 Fetch
+1 Mountain
+1 Forest
+1 Plains
Keep in mind that Zenith can also help mana-fix you by casting Knight and Pridemage without white mana, this, along with the existing overloading on G/W land, is the reason for the reduction in G/W land.
EDIT: If you're considering 4x Wasteland for random colorscrewing the opponent, I'd suggest against it. If there are utility lands that own you, such as Maze of Ith, you might consider a single copy (perhaps in the side) to search up with Knight.
Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.
im trying to build a really fast zoo and I cant decide between goblin guide and vexing devil. Which of these is the better card? I think Vexing Devil is much more explosive than goblin guide but the devil is still not good enough because its not up to you how youre playing it... do you got experience with goblin guide vs vexing devil?
I've been starting to play ZOO recently and after a bit of research I've come to this list, which is a mixmatch of the GenCon list, and a SCG list that used Rancor around may this year:
Creatures [25]
1 Granger Guildmage
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
Enchantments [2]
2 Rancor
Instants [7]
3 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
Sorceries [4]
4 Chain Lightning
Lands [22]
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Plateau
2 Taiga
2 Windswept Heath
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy
Side
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage (maybe a third Thalia instead?)
1 Granger Guildmage
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Pyroblast
3 Faerie Macabre
What do you think of it? I've been having mixed results. So far it's excellent against graveyard using matches, specially Dredge due to the Thalias, and overall very good against creature-heavy decks, not only due to Granger doing a great control with the first strike, and occasional BOB/Snapcaster/token killing, and the Rancor making it possible to out-tarmo other tarmos/reliquarys. Even Nacatl does a killing with it, specially paired with Granger's first strike.
In a tourney I played this lsit I lost to a Esper and a RUG Delver, but I don't usually lose to this Delver usually, both matches I lost as a 2x1 match so it was pretty fair loss; so in other words maybe combos are bad matches i nthe end, gotta test it out more!
I was also thinking of Sylvan Library instead of the canopies, but having th Reliquary in the deck made me think better of having draw lands instead of more enchants, though the cost benefit is sorta the same? (two manas)
If you're rocking Thalia and KoTR I think the correct wasteland count is 4.
I'll state what I always thought. Vexing Devil is not a creature. It's a Lava Spike that deals 4 damage that has the DISADVANTAGE of possibly coming into play as a creature. If it's not a deck you'd run Lava Spike in, it isn't a deck you should run Vexing Devil in.
Wouldn't Vexing Devil synergize quite nicely with Thalia? I don't play either atm, but Maindeck 4 Thalias and 4 Vexing Devils in the Slot of Chain Lightning in a very creature-heavy Deck should Function quite well. Like
20 Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Nacatl
4 Vexing Devil
4 Lynx
4 Goyf
4 Thalia
4 Loam Lion
4 Dryad Militant
4 Bolts
4 Path
That List spawned in 2 Mins, dont be so harsh, was just a quick thought I didnt want to slip away. Points in the List
- u are the aggressor and wont to be as fast as possible (Lynx, Devil, Nacatl)
- Thalia hurts us not as much as we are putting in threat after threat and a Lavaspike for R ;), on the other side 1U Brainstorms, Ponders... suck hard
- Dryad Militant hoses Snapcasters hard, thats my major problem against UW, infinite Swords. Dont know if its worth until its tested.
Maybe I will have some additional thoughts on that theme later, looks promissing at last
This is the list I played last sunday at the Open Dutch Legacy Championship:
"Thalia Zoo"
20 Land:
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Forest
2 Savannah
2 Plateau
2 Taiga
3 Arid Mesa
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
29 Creatures:
1 Granger Guildmage
4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Loxodon Smiter
11 Spells:
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Path to Exile
Sideboard:
3 Pyroblast/REB
3 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Faerie Macabre
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Path to Exile
2 Krosan Grip
People tend to play Relic of Progenitus against decks with Knight of the Reliquary & Tarmogoyf around here simply because it's great against Dredge and other graveyard based decks as well, so Loxodon Smiter was the choice I made. I don't like using utility lands anyway because in most cases it is to slow to acivate your Knight of the Reliquary in turn 4 to acutally grab it. The Loxodon Smiter was a real house against RUG Delver. Plus it's neat against Hymn to Tourach as well. Loxodon Smiter is my new favorite creature in Zoo. I am surprised not more people play him.
The Granger Guildmage is really good in creature matchups to push trough extra damage or having your opponent sacrifice his creature due to the first strike. Also it's amazing against RUG Delver (Tarmogoyfs blocking eachother anyone? As well as Delver of Secrets), Maverick, Lingering Souls, Goblins, Elves, Snapcaster Mage, Noble Hierarch, Dark Confidant and creatures I forgot to mention. He's a lot better as a turn 1 drop than Grim Lavamancer is. I guess I am cutting a Grim for a 2nd Granger Guildmage maindeck.
In the end I went 4-3:
R1 vs Tezzeret Control: loss 2-1 (due to Ensnaring bridge)
R2 vs B/R/G Zombies: win 2-0
R3 vs Burn: win 2-0
R4 vs MUD: loss 2-1 (due to wurmcoil engine & steel hellkite)
R5 vs RUG Delver: win 2-1 due to Granger Guildmage and Loxodon Smiter
R6 vs ANT: 2-0 loss (started with game loss due to being late...)
R7 vs U/G Enchantress: 2-1 win due to Thalia and Ethersworn Canonist after SB
Last edited by Kuyira; 10-30-2012 at 10:45 AM.
The only real upside to smiter over KotR is that smiter is uncounterable. The discard bonus thing will be relevant once in a great while although it depends on how much discard you face. Over here discard isn't that played because discard < brainstorm.
Against RUG smiter is going to be smaller than their goyf. Don't really see the advantage of running it as knight of the reliquary resolving means the RUG player is almost going to auto lose unless they have submerge. And last I checked the RUG matchup is extremely favorable for zoo, as their mongeese are very dead and delver is going to bite the dust hard when we resolve lavamancer or any burn spell targeting it as well as PtE. Goyf wars favor us as we run qasali pridemage for exalted or we can just overwhelm them by spamming creatures. Last I checked the only problems zoo has are combo decks, find a way to make combo winnable and zoo would be very viable deck. Although I don't see how zoo can beat show and tell strategies short of 8 hard counters in the board (4 REB 4 pyro to counter SnT and even then you aren't that heavily favored.)
@Leto: Goblin guide is leagues ahead of vexing devil. In fact it will typically get in more damage than a vexing devil trigger will and when the ground is clogged up vexing devil isn't exactly potent as a 4 damage lava spike. In a list with a lot of one drops I don't see the point of not running guide.
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I've been brewing some form of Zoo, and taken some ideas from recent lists:
Lands [22]
4 Wasteland
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Forest
Critters [25]
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Kird Ape
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Qasali Pridemage
1 Granger Guildmage
Spells [13]
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Rancor
Sideboard [15]
3 Price of Progress
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
Maindeck seems a mess, but it works. I've had a few awkward times with Rancor + Thalia, but I guess that happens. They're both good cards to keep up aggresion and disruption. Rancor is pretty good against stalling from GW Maverick or Rockish/Bant lists.
This deck utterly fails against combo, mostly Show and Tell. With a miser Karakas in sideboard and some Red Blasts that's not even close to enough, so you might want to dodge those matchups. UW Miracles and Stoneblade seems like a lesser hard time. I believe Zoo has a better game against them than Maverick does, because of reach from burn and fast threats like good old Tarmogoyf and Wild Nacatl. I've had my Nacatl FoWed plenty of times. They know the cat scratches hard. Rancor shines bright against Terminus, because you don't need to overextend to push massive damage, but be aware of point removal, as they can 2-1 you if you're not paying attention.
Swords to Plowshares is an ancient non-go in a Zoo list, but its synergy with Thalia and Wasteland is pretty awesome, and they're better suited for this build. Everything else is pretty standard, 3 Qasali Pridemage as a minimum, and 4 annoying dudes (3 Grim/1 Granger split). Grim Lavamancer is always 3 in my lists, because I HATE drawing them in multiples.
Moreover, Thalia is pretty good against some decks, and pretty bad against others. Don't try to cast it against GW Maverick or Merfolk, for example. She WILL make your removal expensive, and won't add anything good to the board, as Merfolk is laughs at her 2 power. Of course you can use that to kill another Thalia by legend rule, but that's a corner case.
Try it out, seems worthy.
Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return
It's good to see that people are still loyal to this fine deck and keep testing it!
I'm wondering if an extreme aggro version of the zoo deck could benefit from having 4x Giant growth?
Might be a silly question, but could it potentially be a second set of Lightning Bolts? It can also be used to protect own creatures when blocked by large Goyfs or so.
Silly ideas aside, how do people play against dredge and decks with Chalice of the Void, Deed, EE or other sweepers?
Im not sure which SB cards to use for GY hate (testing Faerie Macabre x3 next time) and how to play when facing these cards. Most often you just want to pump out every creature you draw to kill the opponent off quickly.
Thanks!
I am pretty sure we can agree that Giant Growth is far away from Lightning Bolt. The problem with GG is that it requires a creature on board and we want our burn to finish the opponent when they have stabilised the board. GG does not provide this option. GG also opens up for the opponent to remove our creature in resp to GG, so he can actually 2-for-1 us.
Against dredge we have a hard matchup. You need to apply some preassure, and eventually you are probably gonna have to kill your own creature to exile bridge from below.
Regarding Chalise and Deed: these are some real hosers against us. There is often nothing we can do when opponent plays ancient tomb into chalise, other than use Green Sun Zenith (if you are running that build), or simply rely on your 2 drops and hope to hit Qasali. Make sure you don't overextend when facing Deed. Play 1-3 creatures and hold on to the rest until opponent cracks the Deed.
As you can see, it is key for us to apply some early preassure. This can be done with 2-3 creatures very fast if the curve is right. Then you can play your second wave of creatures if opponent wipes the board. Alternatively you finish off with burn. This is also the reason you dont always use burn on opponents creatures. You need to consider: "can my creature(s) deal more damage than my burn spell by connecting more than 1 time?". I have won many games by saving approx 4 burn spells after som early beating. Think about it, we can easily deal 8 damage with our creatures if we get some early preassure.
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