Brainstorm
Force of Will
Lion's Eye Diamond
Counterbalance
Sensei's Divining Top
Tarmogoyf
Phyrexian Dreadnaught
Goblin Lackey
Standstill
Natural Order
Frantic Search does more than just enable High Tide decks, Reanimator gets a "free" discard outlet at instant speedOriginally Posted by (nameless one)
Show And Tell I am fine with, the Omni-Tell deck is very vulnerable to Graveyard based decks due to their wishboard and the deck is still to slow for decks like Dredge and Reanimator, Trinisphere hurts the deck a lot as well
Show And Tell enables many different archetypes I don't think it is banworthy in any way yet, when they print a card that does win you the game when it etb then it may need to be banned (Omniscience doesn't win you the game when it hits the field)
Currently Playing:
Dredge, The Rock, Lands, Spiral Tide, Affinity
So would this make Careful Study too fast to allow in the format, because unlike Frantic Search, it can actually be cast on turn 1-2 and allow the Reanimator to unbury a fattie on turn 2.
Just because <card in discussion of unbanning> would be decent (not broken, not degenerate, not unfun, just decent) in an established deck doesn't mean it should stay banned. Come on people.
I think [blue card] will get banned because of [other blue card] paired with [random card nobody cares about]. Therefore, [some broken vintage card] should be unbanned.
Am I doing this right?
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
Needs more Ad Hominem.
Legacy needs a restricted list.
No seriously, I would love the idea of an restricted list for legacy. Just restrict SnT sounds fair. Or unban some powerful stuff, but restrict them.
Am I too high or just the only one who thinks that way?
Humphrey is always correct.
What you are describing sounds sort of like another format I have heard of, but I forget which one.
FTFY :)
Nothing in Legacy is currently too powerful or oppresive. SnT -> Griselbrand or Emrakul is manageable, and doesn't put up results like Survival did. I can appreciate that it "feels bad" to lose to a SnT'd fatty, but it just isn't format warping.
I want a paper classic format (vintage with no power) that would be amazing
westcoast degeneracy
While we are at it, let it be known that I'd like a pony.
- Other than the ante cards/dexterity cards/shahrazad, turn banned list into restricted list?
EDIT: Errr, we'd need more cards banned as well like Black Lotus.
Vintage is defined by a restricted list.
Legacy is defined by a banned list.
This was started with the Type 1.5 split. Combining both, a restricted list + banned cards, doesn't make any sense. This is Magic: The Gathering, not YU GI OH. Suprisingly the later and Vintage (both are managed through restrictions) share a common deckbuilding principle (attention: sarcasm!): "Stuff all the Good stand-alone restricted spells in a deck, fill it with protection spells and add 5 random cards that win the game"
Last edited by Lemnear; 10-18-2012 at 02:56 PM.
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Yet another weekend, yet another 7/8 blue-shell decks with brainstorm. Truly a wide open format, you take 4x BS 4x FOW and add a strategy. It's a good thing for the format when 3/10 dual lands are garbage and another 3/10 are marginal, eh? Really opens up that accessibility.
Bardo, Site AdminNowhere do you see: Efficient Answers to Other Cards. Force and MMS will never be banned. Deal.
The more disturbing fact is that a good deal of the non-blue decks that people hold up to try and point to the fact that Legacy is not just a Blue-mage's format are starting to shift more and more Blue. Maverick and Nic Fit have both been seen with Blue'd up versions, as people think that the Force/Brainstorm/Jace/Clique/etc. package might actually be a whole lot better than the cards in other colors. Enchantress sees more success as the G/U version nowadays, and most combo rocks a playset of Force nowadays, whether it be Reanimator/S&T/High Tide or whatever. Blue tempo decks with Delver/Stoneforge also crowd out a lot of the old non-blue aggressive decks.
I'm starting to come around to the ban Brainstorm side, because Blue is getting ridiculous.
Yeah it was pretty blue, the weekend before it was very diverse though.
Blue has always been the big color of legacy, that's not going to change. It's the color of consistency, and counterspells are pretty safe against a good majority of the field. I also attribute it to UW miracles being new, my local meta is crammed with it at this point.
I however see no need to ban either force of will or brainstorm, force isn't even that great half the time. In addition, claiming these all use the same "blue shell" of 4 force and 4 brainstorm is like saying merfolk and death n taxes use the same "shell" of aether vial and wasteland.
EDIT: I do think that delver is/was a huge mistake and shouldn't exist.
I'm kinda thinking that people should stop bitching and just also play Brainstorm. It's really good. Promised.
Not but really, in a competitive game there will be almost always a best thing. Accept that Brainstorm is good, it won't go away.
Also, what the above person said. Why is it a bad thing if there are 7 different strategies in a top 8 that all play Brainstorm but do something entirely different?
This man is a truthspeaker! You deserve a beer - if you see me in Ghent, you may present yourself to me as The Speaker of Truths and I will buy you a beer of choice
The "ban brainstorm" topic's gett'n ol'.
You play with 60 random cards and every cheap card that minimiere the random factor in decks is golden. Look at Vintage After they restict Brainstorm and Ponder: People just packed Preordain into their 60 as the next best option for the same goal. Look at modern after the DCI decided to axe Preordain and Ponder: players shift to Sleight of Hand and Serum Visions as the next best options.
If you ban Brainstorm it wouldn't do enough. Instead of it every blue Deck would stock Ponder. While being undoubtful weaker, especially the lack to shuffle away dead cards from hand, it would still significantly reduce the randomness of your Deck what is all that compeditive Magic is about. The point that ponder is a sorcery unlike brainstorm doesn't matter; most Player might agree with me that brainstorm is a sorcery 80% of the time anyways.
Fact is: Library Manipulation is insanly strong in Legacy. I have no idea why non-blue-playing people bitch about it but refuse to start their decklists with Mirri's Guile, Sylvan Library or Sensei's Diving Top to achieve similar effects in other colors than Blue. It's stupid to build decks that rely on pure topdecking and the starting grip and complain afterwards that they can't catch up on Card quality of decks that abuse manipulation.
Look at Decks like 12-Post, Rock or Nit Fic ... they use the colorless/green Manipulation with success. Ask my testing Partner about Sylvan Library in our test-suit-Zoo: past Turn 4 I near always draw the fucking 3 cards to Finish him with burn. And what is tournament-Reality? A 1-off. Seriously? is there any better Card to drop on Turn 3?
My 0.02$
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I fully agree with this, Sylvan Library is soooo criminally underplayed...
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
If Brainstorm would be banned, decks playing 4 Brainstorm and 2-4 Ponder would likely switch to 4 Ponder and 2-4 Preordain because card selection plays a central role in these decks; decks playing 4 Brainstorm and no other cantrips would drop cantrips, or even drops blue, because their threat density is high. The 4-Brainstorm only decks play Brainstorm not because they really need card selection, but Brainstorm is such a good value card, even if printed as a Sorcery. Ponder, even printed as an Instant, would not be present in 4-Brainstorm only decks.
Comparing Brainstorm with Mirri's Guile is pointless, because the latter is card-disadvantage. Sylvan Library and Top cost at least 2 mana to have a Brainstorm effect. Cantrips such as Ancient Stirring see some plays because they are on par with Brainstorms in the right decks, but can not be splashed into most decks. If blue mages will miss Brainstorm with Ponders and Preordains at their disposal, why would other mages play cards worse than Ponder or Preordain? The repetitive effects from Guile, Library and Top are good in long games, but far worse than a cantrip for early-game strategies.
WotC has learned their lessons from Ponder and Preordain in Modern, and is thus unlikely to print future cantrips more powerful than Preordain. Legacy would be more (colour) balanced if Brainstorm would be banned, because decks surviving on card selections (Combo, greed tempo decks) would be weakened, while decks surviving on threat density would have more business than the big value card. Ponder and Preordain, while very efficient and powerful, are far from the brokenness of Brainstorm.
On the Sep 2011 Ban List Updates,
Which is correct. Aether vial + Wasteland IS a shell, because in addition to focusing a certain direction (mana advantage), Vial also forces you to play a critical mass of creatures. In the same way, FoW forces you to play a certain critical mass of blue spells. Those blue spells form the shell, with some combination of Jace, Daze, & Ponder rounding out the core. Yes, you can have an intersection of shells (Merfolk, which is also why Merfolk feels so different from the typical blue deck styles).
Yes, it IS a problem. There are only X number of dual lands in the world (300K x 10). Owning all of 4x Plateau, 4x Badlands, 4x Taiga, 4x Scrubland lets you play 100% fewer actual good decks than owning a few Tundras does. Pretty sad, eh? Similarly, there are only Y number of FoWs in the world, and Z number of blue fetches. It's idiotic that one color dominates to the extent it does; it's symptomatic of bad game design. Just because there is always a few "best things" doesn't excuse having a single best thing and to this extent. Imagine if Terran won 80% of championships in Brood War? And that's only 1 out of 3, this is 1 out of 5.
Bardo, Site AdminNowhere do you see: Efficient Answers to Other Cards. Force and MMS will never be banned. Deal.
Come here and get a hug.
Play Brainstorm correctly and learn its real power
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