[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

[Oiolosse]

[QUOTE=litenkatt;684114]Im getting so tired of being run over by combo decks....QUOTE]

I've just started playing the deck and I haven't tested this but since you play RectorFit maybe Side in Decree of Silence?


EDIT: haha, just thought about that corner case game where it's ueber late game grinding and you're witnessing this over and over. So unnecessary but fun sometimes.

[Ryno]

That all make sense?

That was perfect. I couldn't have asked for better explanations. Thanks very much.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

I think you're too focused on his ramp. He also keeps goyf a reasonable size and mongoose off threshhold. Can keep lavamancer off. Stones reanimator. Probably even helps a little against High Tide since you can reduce their recursion. I don't think any of his abilities by themselves is all that, but cumulatively, he's pretty good.

(I think they've had a lot of discussion on Shaman over on The Rock thread. Probably better to go there for a more detailed look.)

I was referring to the turn 2 Liliana followed by disruprtion plan a previous poster mentioned. Granted grave hate is amazing, but that has little to do with effectively disrupting an opponent in most matchups.

However I'm well aware that he is indeed potent and more than the sum of his abilities.

[XdeckX]

[QUOTE=Oiolosse;684162]

Im getting so tired of being run over by combo decks....QUOTE]

I've just started playing the deck and I haven't tested this but since you play RectorFit maybe Side in Decree of Silence?


EDIT: haha, just thought about that corner case game where it's ueber late game grinding and you're witnessing this over and over. So unnecessary but fun sometimes.

If you play RectorFit there is no reason not to run Nether Void as it outclasses Decree of Silence by a great deal. It's even possible to hardcast is.

I'm prepping for a tournament next sunday. As of yet I have no idea what the meta is going to be like but I'm in the mood for angry mountains and want to test my recently acquired Bonfire of the Damned. On the other hand I still have my recent result with Viridia's OmniscienceFit in the back of my mind. Not sure. Why does the deck I love playing most come with so many viable builds? ;)

Deathrite Shaman is indeed a pain. I was lucky last time I faced it that my opponent didnt really know how to handle Academy Rector. Luckily Rock-style decks are not that common over here. But then again anything is possible. Even Zoo has been making an appearance lately.

[litenkatt]

@For you who are currently playing Viridia's omni-rector list

How good is Faith's Fetters in this list?
Is 2x Eternal Witness needed? Perhaps 1x might work just as well?
Is it possible to put in some Counter magic?

[Viridia]

The Fetters is an emergency thing when you really really need to answer a planeswalker or anything right away.
I think 2x Witness is needed, i've never played with less and often had 1 in the mid-game getting something and dieing and the other getting stuff back in the late-game.
It might be possible to fit in some countermagic, but it'll be really hard. You basically tap out every turn, but i suppose you could run sideboard negates orso?

[Arianrhod]

IMO, 2x Witness is the minimum acceptable number for any build of Nic Fit. If you're on the Nightmare plan, you want 2 Witnesses to enable degeneracy there. If you're not, you're probably running Volrath's Stronghold, which is fine, but what if it gets Wasted and you already used your Witness? Etc. I've always been comfortable with two -- I tried upping it to 3 once, and it didn't work well at all.

Also, Brian Sondag tweeted me back, and he was in fact on ScapeWish, so there's a 26th place SCG finish for that version.

Also, as far as the combo deck discussion goes, the stone-cold worst combo matchup for any Nic Fit variety is Hypergenesis, and it's -not- close. I'd say that the list from top-down would look as follows:

Hypergenesis
Reanimator
Belcher
Hive Mind
Sneak and Show
TES
OmniTell
ANT
High Tide

Interesting and noteworthy that 5 of those are Show and Tell decks. But regardless.

I wouldn't feel too bad about losing to reanimator. It's a really shitty matchup for exactly the reasons you stated -- they attack on multiple angles, and usually you have the wrong answer card in hand for their line of play. Extirpate vs Show and Tell or Humility vs Entomb/Exhume. All of the other combo decks are much more linear, or, if they're flexible, they're slower to make up for it. IE, Sneak/Show. They can go the Sneak plan if they're worried about Angel of Despair or Humility or w/e, but if they go the Sneak plan, they're going to be much slower, and thus vulnerable to Cranial Extraction effects.

IMO High Tide is the easiest combo deck for us to beat, but that might be because I have one locally and I've HAD to learn how to play vs it. /Shrug.

Litenkatt -- if your meta is really saturated with Reanimator, try a 4x Leyline plan, alongside your traditional hate of the Cranial Extraction/Memoricide pair. That FORCES them to go on the Show and Tell plan, which is obviously still a thing, but it allows you to focus on that angle. Yeah, they can bounce the Leyline, but they don't usually have that many bounce spells (2-3 is usual), so if they have one opening hand, that's just shit luck. if you start with Leyline in play, call Show and Tell on your Therapy, and then mold your game plan around what they have. It depends on their list whether you attack their deck via creature or spell -- if they're running a lot of 1-of creatures instead of like 4x Griselbrand, you probably Cranial their Show and Tells, then their bounce spell of choice. If they're on 4x Griselbrand.dec, Cranialing GB will make it harder for them to actually stick a fatty, let alone protect it. They can draw all the Show and Tells they want if they can't put anything into play with it. Also, at the point at which you have a Leyline in play, Zenith out Ooze/Deathrite Shaman. That way if they draw bounce for Leyline, they have another layer that they have to fight through. It isn't just as simple as solving the Leyline.

Beating all combo decks with Nic Fit involve concentric circles of prison-hate. You don't stop when you have a lock piece out. You don't stop when you've Cranialed them and have a lock piece out. You just keep building, and building, and making their life more and more miserable until you have a veritable Alcatraz built up. THEN you might worry about actually killing them. But you make damn sure they can't win, first.

[Cire_dk]

@Arianrhod and other scapewish players.

How good /necessary is Virtue's Ruin been for you in the SB? I might want to buy the card but I am not sure if it is very usefull to own the card.

Looking forward to your reactions

[Arianrhod]

Virtue's Ruin serves a very important purpose: it's a sweeper that kills Gaddock Teeg. That's actually the whole reason I run Ruin alongside Damnation, rather than just Damnation by itself. Teeg is a common threat to Scapewish, because it stops Scapeshift (and GSZ). Ergo, he must die. You could run like Pyroclasm or Firespout, but then the offending deck will just give it pro-red with Mother of Runes, and you're out of luck. Some Maverick decks have adopted Revoker, so you aren't guaranteed your Deeds in that matchup. If your Deeds are shut down, then you have exactly two ways to kill Teeg: active Valakut, and BW->Virtue's Ruin. Otherwise, you're kold. The other option is that you could run Infest, which has the upside of killing Revoker as well -- but the problem there is that Infest doesn't also kill Knight of the Reliquary, Serra Avenger, Progenitus, and so on. Also, if there is any kind of equipment attached to Teeg, Infest won't kill him. Furthermore, double black can be really hard to hit effectively when vs a Teeg deck, since most Teeg decks are also Wasteland decks, and they may have Vindicate or Sinkhole for further mana screwing. Making your mana costs as simple as you can, with as few double-costs as you can, will reward you in the long run.

[Cire_dk]

Virtue's Ruin serves a very important purpose: it's a sweeper that kills Gaddock Teeg. That's actually the whole reason I run Ruin alongside Damnation, rather than just Damnation by itself. Teeg is a common threat to Scapewish, because it stops Scapeshift (and GSZ). Ergo, he must die. You could run like Pyroclasm or Firespout, but then the offending deck will just give it pro-red with Mother of Runes, and you're out of luck. Some Maverick decks have adopted Revoker, so you aren't guaranteed your Deeds in that matchup. If your Deeds are shut down, then you have exactly two ways to kill Teeg: active Valakut, and BW->Virtue's Ruin. Otherwise, you're kold. The other option is that you could run Infest, which has the upside of killing Revoker as well -- but the problem there is that Infest doesn't also kill Knight of the Reliquary, Serra Avenger, Progenitus, and so on. Also, if there is any kind of equipment attached to Teeg, Infest won't kill him. Furthermore, double black can be really hard to hit effectively when vs a Teeg deck, since most Teeg decks are also Wasteland decks, and they may have Vindicate or Sinkhole for further mana screwing. Making your mana costs as simple as you can, with as few double-costs as you can, will reward you in the long run.

Thanks for your explanation. Now we also have abrupt decay to deal with Teeg from the wishboard. Would this not free up one slot in the SB?

[Arianrhod]

Thanks for your explanation. Now we also have abrupt decay to deal with Teeg from the wishboard. Would this not free up one slot in the SB?

2 problems: Decay is an instant, so you can't Wish for it; and they'll still just give Teeg pro-whichever with Mom, or shroud via Safekeeper. Decay's "can't be countered" clause doesn't have anything to say about protections, and loses that fight.

[Cire_dk]

2 problems: Decay is an instant, so you can't Wish for it; and they'll still just give Teeg pro-whichever with Mom, or shroud via Safekeeper. Decay's "can't be countered" clause doesn't have anything to say about protections, and loses that fight.

Forgot about that. I will orther virtue's ruin immediately Thanks for your help

[Cire_dk]

http://jupitergames.info/articles/20...-jupiter-games

Link to watch the Scapewish games talked about before in this link.
Have fun

first video start at 3.27.08
top 8 start at 0.12

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Out of curiosity, how often do all these combo decks go off on turns 1, 2, or 3? The Living Wishboard seems solid if they don't win by then.

[Arianrhod]

They go off earlier in game one, but a well-aimed Therapy can slow them down substantially. It's fair to expect a turn 2-5 (unlikely to almost certain) window in g1, then something like turn 4-X in g2 and 3.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Thanks Arianrhod: one more question before I head off to the daily grind.

If I do not know my meta at all and I want to use Cabal Therapy T1 on the play, what do I name to maximize the potency against an unknown deck? I'm thinking either Lotus Petal or Brainstorm, but that could very well be very wrong.

[Arianrhod]

Brainstorm is very right. Think about it this way: Blind names on t1 need to be things that are reasons to keep a hand. Blue players are NOTORIOUS for keeping shit hands and then leaning on Brainstorm. Top is another good blind call for the same reason, but Brainstorm sees a wider range of play. If you know that your opponent isn't on a Brainstorm deck, then you probably want to call something in his deck that is a reason to keep a hand. Let's say Deadguy as an example. Deadguy is known to be a BW Stoneforge deck. So, I'd blind call Stoneforge Mystic because it's a reason to keep a hand. If you don't know what you're up against at all, Brainstorm is always the best blind call -- again, it's in the most decks statistically, and it's a reason to keep a hand.

[Ayotte]

Brainstorm is very right. Think about it this way: Blind names on t1 need to be things that are reasons to keep a hand. Blue players are NOTORIOUS for keeping shit hands and then leaning on Brainstorm. Top is another good blind call for the same reason, but Brainstorm sees a wider range of play. If you know that your opponent isn't on a Brainstorm deck, then you probably want to call something in his deck that is a reason to keep a hand. Let's say Deadguy as an example. Deadguy is known to be a BW Stoneforge deck. So, I'd blind call Stoneforge Mystic because it's a reason to keep a hand. If you don't know what you're up against at all, Brainstorm is always the best blind call -- again, it's in the most decks statistically, and it's a reason to keep a hand.

I play against the one high tide player in my city every week, and my turn 1 therapies are always on high tide or time spiral. Are you saying that it's better to name brainstorm against him? I've noticed that I often miss the therapy because he kept a hand with a bunch of cantrips, but it still seems weird for me to not name high tide when I'm playing against a high tide deck.

[Holly]

Hes probably not keeping a hand just because he has a High Tide in it and if you see he has some hand with 1 or even 2 of it, he's not going to use them t1/t2 so you should get another shot of hitting it with cabal therapy (flashback).

[Ayotte]

Hes probably not keeping a hand just because he has a High Tide in it and if you see he has some hand with 1 or even 2 of it, he's not going to use them t1/t2 so you should get another shot of hitting it with cabal therapy (flashback).

Yes but taking a high tide from his hand will have a larger effect than taking a cantrip, since cantrips are pretty redundant in that deck.

The question is, which is greater:

X * Y, where X is the benefit of taking a high tide and Y is the chance of him having a high tide in his opening hand.
or
A * B, where A is the benefit of taking a brainstorm and B is the chance of him having a brainstorm in his opening hand.

I believe it is obvious that X>A and B>Y, but the real question is, which product is greater?