+1Originally Posted by apistat_commander
I have to agree with that. If you are looking to cap your mana curve at 2, then you do not need Deathrite. If you are looking to extend into Liliana and Jace, then Deathrite is very good. Deathrite is better for the midrange Team America.
I could see tempo running Deathrite as a 2 or 3 of. The reason being is that it does provide relevant mana fixing and graveyard disruption. For granted, graveyard based decks are not seeing as much play lately, and other relevant cards, like Knight of the Reliquary, are also not very popular at the moment.
In the tempo build, Deathrite's most powerful asset is his ability to fix & accelerate your mana production. On the play, you can Waste turn 2 and still drop a Goyf or Hymn. Deathrite also allows you to make two 2-drops on turn 3 without overextending your mana on board (hold those extra lands in your hand to put back with a Brainstorm).
I've already answered this in my post. However, if you really need some facts let's take a look on results from last few SGC Legacy Opens. Based on results between 2012-09-02 to 2012-11-18 (the last one in Dallas) there were total of 9 BUG Aggro variations in listed rankings. I'm not counting BUG Landstill and Controlish versions since those have differend strategies and are control-oriented. Six of them were typical tempo decks with RUG shell (BUG Delvers) and the rest were mid-range.
Total of 0 stalkers were included in both, MD and SB in each of those decks. You can run SCG search engine if you don't believe me. Stalkers can still be effective in local meta and can be cheap goyf replacement, although at pro level there is tendency to avoid those in your 75.
From what I know, some things are just worth fighting for
- Jim Raynor
My point is that there may not have been any BUG lists that included Tombstalker at the event, so while it is correct to say "lists without tombstalker did well at the last open", it may not be correct to say "lists without tombstalker performed better than those including it" without knowing whether or not anyone actually played with them. I don't know that SCG publishes the decklists of every single player though. It doesn't look like they do at least (can't find my own terribad past performances), but maybe I'm screwing up my criteria somehow.
I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel
"Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."
I've been pretty happy with a modified version of this deck: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...9&iddeck=68226
It runs 4 Tarmogoyfs and 4 Tombstalkers. Originally, I thought 4 Tombstalkers was too many, but I've never been disappointed to see one.
I like Tombstalker, as it is harder to remove. STP is really that only thing that takes it out.
Delver is more fragile, is easier to remove, changes your deck composition (you need more soceries and instants), and removes Deed as a possibility from the board. Deed with Tombstalker on board is a very strong play.
Arguably, the build linked above is slower than a straight Aggro BUG version, but it still counts as Tempo, imo, due to the Stifles, Dazes, and discard. However, you could argue that the Planeswalkers pushes the deck into the mid-range category.
Maybe that's the deciding point with Tombstalker - straight Aggro BUG doesn't want it, while Mid-Range BUG does.
Tombstalker is certainly a non-bo with Nimble Mongoose, but I've never had serious issues with it affecting Goyf (usually, between both graveyards, you can cast Tombstalker while maintaining all relevant card types).
The only real issue for Gofy/Nimble/Stalker is Rest in Peace. This car single-handedly neuters your Goyfs, makes your Gooses into 1/1's, and makes your Tombstalkers impossible to cast. Rest in Peace wouldn't be so bad if it left current graveyards intact, but the fact that it removes current graveyards and future graveyards makes it a real beast.
You can´t really take SCG Opens for reference when evaluating the power of Tombstalker. The playskill there is that of a FNM at best, with few exceptions. Most of the decklists there are plain rubbish or out of date because everyone just copy/pastes their decklist from prior events. Just because there are only a few people playing Tombstalker at the moment doesn´t mean that he´s bad. Even at "Pro Level" Tombstalker is a fine choice imo, cmc2 5/5 flying is pretty good I think. I´m very happy with my list and I would not hesitate to play Stalker at a GP or similar event. Its just a pretty unknown deck.
I´m not saying that the "Mongoose version" is bad or something like that. Just went 5-0 with that deck on Saturday in our local event, but it´s an entirely different deck and neither can you really compare those two nor can you draw a conclusion which of them is better. They´re equally good, it just depends on personal preferences.
No, 'Stalker is bad because he is difficult to cast early in the game, costs double black, has bad synergy with your own Tarmogoyfs, Deathrite Shamans and more Tombstalkers in your hand, and gets hosed by other people's Scavenging Oozes and Shamans, even if our opponent doesn't know you're playing Stalkers.* None of these things would be a serious problem on its own, but together they are damning. It's a lot like Phyrexian Negator - a card with a glorious past and no future.
*I also forgot to mention how bad it is to have a Tombstalker bounced to your hand by Jace. It's a terrible, terrible feeling.
It's a terrible feeling to have Jace bounce your anything, or for him to hit play for that matter.
I tried Mongoose and didn't like it. It's good against heavy removal, but even then it feels pretty restrictive. Tombstalker kills them real fast.
You asked about SCG Opens results so I have posted just those. And sure, they post mostly just top32 and the rest usually if they are willing to / sometimes some interesting decks / or decks of some famous names.
DLifshitz just brought again points I have been reviewing in earlier posts. In tempo strategy you should minimalise dead draws. Tombstalker in opening hand stinks and I feel like it goes completely differend direction than the rest of our creatures. Even in mid-range I'd rather go for Bob/shaman or 2Jace/1Liliana. Most of the time you end up paying more than BB for him, plus it sucks to shrink our board just to bring another StP target leaving your beaters as miserable 1/X.
Water_Wizard, I agree that stalker belongs to mid-range BUG.
Delver changes your composition sure, but which card types are better for tempo than instants? Force of Will / Spell Pierce / Stifle and others. All of those makes your opponet pay more resources than you for same purpose: kill enemy. And isn't it the goal in going for tempo strategy? I guess it is. Thats why Delver > stalker in tempo.
From what I know, some things are just worth fighting for
- Jim Raynor
Played this last night at a 3 round 8 man at the LGS
4 goose
4 goyf
4 delver
2 deathrite
2 clique
3 daze
4 fow
2 pierce
4 stifle
4 abrupt decay
4 brainstorm
4 Ponder
19 lands
4 waste
8 fetches
0 basics
Sb
1 pierce
2 edict
1 EE
2 Kroshan Grip
2 echoing truth
2 thought seize
2 extirpate
2 submerge
1 life from the loam
Game 1 vs bant.
3 round match with much back and forth Mana denial, goyfs plus his knights and nobles. I felt I didn't draw enough removal so I'll add a couple more to the main. Ultimately goyf + noble > goyf
1-2
Game 2
Vs my cousin. He was leaving
2-0
Game 3
Vs counterbalance, land still, stiflenaught.
My opponents opener is island top so I put him on miracles. I built with the miracle match up in mind, referring to kroshan grips in the board and decays main.
I take games 1 + 3. Game 2 my opponent crushed me with a stiflenaught
Mana: 20
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacomb
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
Creatures: 14
4 Delver
3 Deathrite
4 Goyf
3 Tombstalker
Draw: 9
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library
Disruption: 14
4 Daze
4 Force
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Dismember
4 Thoughtseize
This is a very rough draft, but I'd like to test it out.
Is Hymn an auto 4 of in the deck? I'd love to play it, but I feel it's too clunky with Decay in the mix.
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No, pretty much no one plays Hymn anymore. Even Thoughtseize/Inquisition of Kozilek have been getting cut from a lot of lists.
Nimble Mongoose isn't doing much business any earlier than Tombstalker is, since having 7 for thresh is about equally prohibitive as having 6 cards to delve away. When you finally get them set up around turn 3 or 4, the flying 5/5 is a much better clock than an easily blocked 3/3. The main reason to play goose is for the shroud IMO.
Delver > everything in tempo, not just tombstalker.
I would do the following:
Lands:
-2 Tropical
+ 1 Bayou
Creatures:
+1 Deathrite Shaman
Other spells:
-4 Thoughtseize
+4 Hymn to Tourach
Hymn is still very powerful. My plan is to focus on the broken Turn2 plays that Deathrite Shaman enables like T1 Shaman + Daze into T2 Hymn to Tourach, or T1 Shaman into T2 Hymn + Wasteland, etc.
Besides that I'm playing Snuff Out over Dismember atm cause if you throw in a Snuff Out in one of the above scenarios things get even crazier ;)
Tested this list on a small tournament :
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Ghastly Demise
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
4 Ponder
1 Bayou
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
SB :
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Ghastly Demise
2 Spell Pierce
1 Life from the Loam
3 Thoughtseize
1 Flusterstorm
1. round : Uw Miracles with Helm Combo : 2:0
2. round : Rock 2:0
3. round : Nic Fit 1:2
4. round: Mono White Stax : 2:1
All in all i was very satisfied with this list, a small play error on my part was responsible for my loss in round 3 game 3..
Thoughts :
> decay was perfect, hitting so many targets was useful in all games
> mana cruve with 19 lands and a lot of 2 mana spells is perhaps too high
> still not sure about confidant and mongoose, they were good in some matchups but in others....- i had the feeling that my mongooses need a long time to get threshold...
> Still not sure in which direction i shall take this deck
I agree with you max. Yes the shroud is nice, but the flying on stalker and the fact he can't be bolted has been huge for me. One of the reasons I love stalker is he closes the game out quickly. Plus seeing peoples " Oh Shit " faces when he hits the table is great
He also gets around counterbalance
Here's a hypothetical list, needs tweaking:
19 Lands
4 Delver
4 Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker
4 FoW
4 Thoughtseize // Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Daze
2 Spell Pierce // Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Ghastly Demise // Snuff Out
(Maybe adjust some slots to fit in singletons of Sylvan Library, Liliana of the Veil, go up to 20 lands, adjust the removal options and proportions, etc.)
Tombstalker is still great, but I don't know if the deck can really support more than 2-3. I think if you run stuff like Predict or Thought Scour it's more reasonable to increase the number. But for this approach, he's just there to function as a big finisher that outsizes a ton of opposing decks' smaller threats.
Shaman is actually quite amazing. Beyond just mana fixing and accelerating into multiple plays in the early turns, he also gives you some reach and main-deck GY disruption. He can also help keep you out of Bolt range. When I was playing Team America some time ago, it seemed like Snapcaster recursion was a problem for the deck since they could just hit your dudes with removal over and over again. I know people will consider this card to be limited to playing Midrange/Control versions of BUG, but I think he may have a place in a more aggressive tempo version as well.
The rationale for playing a deck like this over RUG is the more versatile removal and having an increased edge against RUG, Counterbalance, and combo decks. You also gain access to some pretty sick SB options like Massacre, Dread of Night, Perish, Pernicious Deed, etc.
I think BUG Tempo can be viable in certain metagames, but honestly if you are a deck playing Dazes you really want to close the game out quickly and I just don't think that trading the reach of Red is worth getting unconditional removal.
- Deathrite Shaman is a great card but I don't really think it fits in your shell. The decks where it does the most are either able to capitalize on the extra mana production with 3 and 4 drops or stall the board out with fatties and ping away. Tempo doesn't really do either of those things.
- You aren't running Stifle so some already tough MUs for Tempo (Nic Fit, Goblins) become even worse. Additionally with a lack of Stifle and Mongoose you have a hard time beating Miracles because while you can shut down Counterbalance they can still Swords/Terminus you out of the game.
- Abrupt Decay is good but it can be hard to have the correct mana for it given how weak the deck is to Wasteland. Your lack of Stifle also means that your stretched manabase is strained further. This is partially mitigated by Shaman but people are starting to realize that he needs to die ASAP so you can't count on that.
Here is an example of a list similar to yours but note that it has Planeswalkers to ramp into. It doesn't flip Delver as reliably so I would almost want to cut it there.
This deck is from the same tournament and seems to me to be a better execution of a BUG deck with Shaman. It trades Delvers for a mix of other creatures and planeswalkers:
Creatures [15]
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
Instants [18]
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
Sorceries [2]
2 Preordain
Planeswalkers [5]
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lands [20]
1 Bayou
3 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
I don't know if this is just a bad BUG control deck but I think the shell is promising. BUG control suffers from being unable to close out games quickly and while this deck can give you some awkward draws there are also some really powerful starts available as well.
Hi,
I am testing this for the moment ;
I am in love with library+death shadow ;
this win game on his own.
Four seems a bit too much, but it is not ; becaus you close to always want a turn two library.
Massacre is for death and tax which is a tough matchup.
Grip are there for humility.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Wasteland
3 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Death's Shadow
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Tarmogoyf
SB: 4 Submerge
SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Darkblast
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Massacre
If we are running a full 4x Wasteland, and we are also running 2-4 Tombstalker and any Nimble Mongoose in the same deck, has anyone tried running 1 or 2 Life from the Loam and a singleton Darkblast? They fuel both threshold and delve rather efficiently in my mind whilst being rather effective in the current meta. Am I wrong?
Today I am become death. The destroyer of worlds. -Oppenheimer
4X Sylvan Library can you please explain this logic to me?
Seems manifestly excessive; no more than x2 seems like the right number to me.....
To be the man, you gotta beat the man!
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