[Deck] Dredge

[joemauer]

I need some help with a decision I am having difficulty resolving.

Assume I am running a standard Quad list, removing the fourth Thug for a land, and the fourth Breakthrough for a DR.

I am certain now that I want to add a 12th Dredger in. However, I can't reconcile how.

The only card I am comfortable removing considering MD and SB requirements, is the fourth PImp. PImp is indivudually a stronger card than any of it's considered replacements, but isn't as paramount to the actual functions of the deck, since too often I am without a dredger, rendering PImp fairly useless in that case.

Thug replaces PImp as what I consider a needed Black creature to feed Ichorid. But not as a discard outlet.

Darkblast dredges almost as well as Thug, has a bit more utility, and almost acts as a discard outlet if only considering gettting a dredger into the yard. But it won't get you an Ichorid into play.

My issue is; if PImp is the only option for removal, and Thug or Darkblast are the only two options as a replacement, which is more important? Having a Dredge 4 that you can often hardcast for value, and facilitates Ichorid, or a mediocre removal spell that can Dredge 3, often save Ichorids or Bridges, and most often counts as an instant-speed discard outlet?

I would stick with the Pimp.

The biggest strength of twelve dredgers is being able to chain dredge with the first turn Breakthrough. And since you are down to three Breakthroughs then that chain dredging doesn't seem as important in your deck.

People keep saying Peackeeper is still a SB but I haven't seen it for the longest time. Darkblast, for me, only shows up when I am playing against combo or control. Oh and it does show up after I have had all my lands wastelanded.

[Mindlash]

Without LED's I would suggest you try and run Tireless Tribe. It blocks Goyfs, plays around Surgical Extraction, and is a warm body for Dread Return. Also, I'd suggest you take out the MD Iona and instead add a 2nd Flayer. Board could use Firestorms as well, just my 2 cents

How do you play around SE with Tribes?

Another idea for LEDless Dredge might be something like Quadlaser - 1 Ichorid - 4 LED - 1 Breakthrough + 1 Undiscovered Paradise + 1 Tarnished Citadel + 4 Firestorms.
This would be something without Dread Return of course. Firestorms might be helpful right now. The cards reads something like this in Dredge "Wrath of God - as an additional cost to cast Firestorm you win the game" It also serves as uncounterable discard outlet in addition to the destruction it delivers.

Konkurs may be also something to consider if you do not have LEDs.

My suggestion to anyone without LEDs and the intention to play Dredge would be Manaless though.

Greetings Mindlash

[Parcher]

I would stick with the Pimp.

The biggest strength of twelve dredgers is being able to chain dredge with the first turn Breakthrough. And since you are down to three Breakthroughs then that chain dredging doesn't seem as important in your deck.

People keep saying Peackeeper is still a SB but I haven't seen it for the longest time. Darkblast, for me, only shows up when I am playing against combo or control. Oh and it does show up after I have had all my lands wastelanded.

What I think I'm doing, is cutting one of two DR I had main, for the Breakthrough. Then cutting a Careful Study for the dredger(still undecided on which). Breakthrough is so much better main, than in the SB. And this version has enough discard outlets already(especially with four PImp). Also, in conjunction with any other discard outlet, Study is the worst draw effect in the deck. I want to open on PImp over Study against every deck on the play, even with an LED. And also against any non-Combo or Control deck on the draw. Essentially being Quad with +1 land, +1 DR, -1 Ichorid, -1 Study. With an extra land MD, I can afford to put the DR in a land slot in the SB.

I might want to add it to the SB, but I'll have to see if I can get a correct SB plan across the board first. If I have everything I want to bring in for the meta, and for hate, it's probably better just having access to an additional SB card, than having the cantrip. If I need more generic SB options, or have to bring in additional land for off-color spells, or even just need additional draw/discard against decks that both Bthrough and LED come out, then I'll probably run the Study as a filler slot in the SB.

[klaus]

Not a Dredge player anymore, but I assume LEDs have become mandatory since the printing of Rest in Peace.
You just need to be able to combo off before it resolves..

[Beatusnox]

Honestly I haven't missed tireless tribes yet, though they are in the binder of goodstuffs, I tend to win before 'Goyf is an issue for me. As I said earlier the list is very much so tuned to my area meta, which does not have a lot of Ooze and no Rest In Peace that I am aware of. I still very much like LEDless(until I get them), and I've tried manaless and for some reason the deck and myself don't get along lol.

I cannot order online at the moment, and firestorms are rare at the LGS in my area, I have one currently lol.

If I were to go to a larger Scale event, I would probably change it, put Iona in the Board, bring in FKZ to the maindeck, and trim 1 Paradise for the other Ichorid. I am unsure what to cut for Tireless Tribes, as I really like the DR package. Trade across for Putrid Imp?

As Far as LED becoming Mandatory, I do not believe so, while many decks Do run them, some do not attempt to stick the combo as quick as possible, while in Game 2-3 it is weak to the same hate the rest of the enchantment based hate is.

[sherko7]

How do you play around SE with Tribes?

Another idea for LEDless Dredge might be something like Quadlaser - 1 Ichorid - 4 LED - 1 Breakthrough + 1 Undiscovered Paradise + 1 Tarnished Citadel + 4 Firestorms.
This would be something without Dread Return of course. Firestorms might be helpful right now. The cards reads something like this in Dredge "Wrath of God - as an additional cost to cast Firestorm you win the game" It also serves as uncounterable discard outlet in addition to the destruction it delivers.

Konkurs may be also something to consider if you do not have LEDs.

My suggestion to anyone without LEDs and the intention to play Dredge would be Manaless though.

Greetings Mindlash

Well, you get to play around those who SE your lone Dredger in the early game. Simply keep a different Dredger in hand and discard it in response to their SE. Of course, this is assuming your opponent decides to SE your Dredger instead of Ichorid or Bridge from Below.

[4zureSky]

I've read through this whole thread.. but have you guys ever thought of bringing back Deathmark? This works against Tarmo, ooze, stone, rhox, and jotun! These are the really annoying creatures against dredge IMO.

[Michael Keller]

I've read through this whole thread.. but have you guys ever thought of bringing back Deathmark? This works against Tarmo, ooze, stone, rhox, and jotun! These are the really annoying creatures against dredge IMO.

The absolute worst cards you're going to have to deal with realistically are Grafdigger's Cage, Leyline of the Void and Rest in Peace. You really don't care much about opposing creatures as you're able to blast through your entire deck at warp speed - with the right hand.

In order to combat those cards, you need to stick to versatile anti-hate cards such as Claim, Chain, Ray or Grudge. If you're looking for the blowout on those creatures you mentioned, stick with Firestorm. It can be a blowout.

[4zureSky]

The absolute worst cards you're going to have to deal with realistically are Grafdigger's Cage, Leyline of the Void and Rest in Peace. You really don't care much about opposing creatures as you're able to blast through your entire deck at warp speed - with the right hand.

In order to combat those cards, you need to stick to versatile anti-hate cards such as Claim, Chain, Ray or Grudge. If you're looking for the blowout on those creatures you mentioned, stick with Firestorm. It can be a blowout.

This is my current sb:

1 Dread Return
1 Elesh Norn
3 Nature's Claim
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Ashen Ghoul
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Memory's Journey
3 Deathmark (maybe)

I've played against all those hate cards through testing and they're definitely hard to deal with if we do not have the right cards. However, because of the 3 claims and 2 ancient grudges, its fairly doable. That also depends on the starting hand and how we deal with things later in the game, of course. Hate-cards I seem to have no trouble with, but when creatures with hate such as Deathrite shaman and jotun start coming into play, its a lot harder to deal with IMHO. Yes, those creatures can be slow compared to our explosive deck, but when we start out with a bad hand and mulligan down to a few, chances are.. we won't get what we want. That's why I choose to stay with an "alright" hand and try to grind it out. Firestorm is nice because it can target multiple creatures and/or players, but most of the time I used firestorm is when I also have other anti-hate cards in my hand I get into the situation where it is "All or Nothing".. I even have darkblast mainboard to deal with this critters.

[Michael Keller]

This is my current sb:

1 Dread Return
1 Elesh Norn
3 Nature's Claim
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Ashen Ghoul
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Memory's Journey
3 Deathmark (maybe)

I've played against all those hate cards through testing and they're definitely hard to deal with if we do not have the right cards. However, because of the 3 claims and 2 ancient grudges, its fairly doable. That also depends on the starting hand and how we deal with things later in the game, of course. Hate-cards I seem to have no trouble with, but when creatures with hate such as Deathrite shaman and jotun start coming into play, its a lot harder to deal with IMHO. Yes, those creatures can be slow compared to our explosive deck, but when we start out with a bad hand and mulligan down to a few, chances are.. we won't get what we want. That's why I choose to stay with an "alright" hand and try to grind it out. Firestorm is nice because it can target multiple creatures and/or players, but most of the time I used firestorm is when I also have other anti-hate cards in my hand I get into the situation where it is "All or Nothing".. I even have darkblast mainboard to deal with this critters.

Deathmark is overkill and unnecessary in a deck that will simply overrun its opponents with an arbitrarily large number of threats. Additionally, you don't want spot removal like that which will knock off your Bridges in the process. At least with Firestorm, you're gaining value with what you're doing (killing their threats, doming them and discarding). LED and Non-LED variants lean more heavily on Bridge from Below to amass tokens in a hurry. The last thing you want to do is worry about some relatively innocuous creatures when you can make ten to twenty times as much - and faster.

It's just not necessary.

[ykpon]

I recommend testing Abrupt Decays. It's two rainbow mana but it's worth it even if you have to cut Coliseums or add some lands to sb to make it work. It deals with everything but Leyline, but what makes it awesome is that unlike Chain/Claim it really works against blue decks.

[4zureSky]

Deathmark is overkill and unnecessary in a deck that will simply overrun its opponents with an arbitrarily large number of threats. Additionally, you don't want spot removal like that which will knock off your Bridges in the process. At least with Firestorm, you're gaining value with what you're doing (killing their threats, doming them and discarding). LED and Non-LED variants lean more heavily on Bridge from Below to amass tokens in a hurry. The last thing you want to do is worry about some relatively innocuous creatures when you can make ten to twenty times as much - and faster.

It's just not necessary.

I've went through that same train of thought too. I agree with everything you say especially with removing my own bridges. I just feel like I dont always get a bridge even though I would dredge about 20 or less cards many of the times. I guess I'll just keep testing and see which one I would prefer. Don't get me wrong, I totally understand where you're coming from Thanks for the input!

[Mr. Froggy]

I play LEDless Dredge (budget concerns, my friend my lend me his LEDs though, so I might try LED Dredge), and I was having difficulty getting the combo to run. I run pretty much the same LEDless list as in the OP, maybe with a few tweaks here and there, but the almost the same.

To go off, what is the minimum needed? A Dredger (hopefully GGT), PImp, Break, Land (Rainbow), Coliseum, and other things. Am I really unlucky if the past couple of games I played I only flipped 1 Bridge in roughly 30-40 cards, lol?

Also, I know LED Dredge is blisteringly much faster than LEDless, but what's the fastest I can go off (regularly) with LEDless? I would assume T2, and that's if all stars and planets are aligned (not really a lucky guy).

Any insight into this would be greatly appreciated! :D

[joemauer]

Also, I know LED Dredge is blisteringly much faster than LEDless, but what's the fastest I can go off (regularly) with LEDless? I would assume T2, and that's if all stars and planets are aligned (not really a lucky guy).

Any insight into this would be greatly appreciated! :D

LED dredge is only a half a turn to a whole turn faster than it's counterpart. LEDless can, and quite often does, go off on turn two.

Mulligans will help you find that perfect hand.

The best combination to go off with is LED+LED+Land+Breakthrough+Grave Troll(x2). But in all seriousness check out the primer, it is quite informative in regards to ideal hands to keep.

And goldfish practice hands to know what can get there and what can't.

[Mr. Froggy]

I read the Primer in its entirety, and I found outstanding. It opened my eyes and it helped a lot with how to play the deck. I'm gonna practice with it because I think it's just because I suck that I can't make it work. My thought is that if its good enough to be in te DTB section on and off, it must mean its quite the beast. I probably just can't handle it right now, lol.

I read that hands need to consist of at least a Dredger and a discard outlet (and draw) at the bare minimum. I assume its the same regardless of which Dredge deck I'm playing, right?

Also, for reference, my SB:

4 Nature's Claim
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Ray of Revelation
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn
1 Ichorid
And other things I can't remember for some reason.

My question is, are Ray of Revelations as useful as they were before? I'm seeing a bunch of artifact-based hate, but enchantment-based hate has seemed to have disappeared.

And I hate asking for this, but what would people generally side in and out for specific match-ups? My list is pretty standard LEDless, if that helps.

Thanks!

[Beatusnox]

I read the Primer in its entirety, and I found outstanding. It opened my eyes and it helped a lot with how to play the deck. I'm gonna practice with it because I think it's just because I suck that I can't make it work. My thought is that if its good enough to be in te DTB section on and off, it must mean its quite the beast. I probably just can't handle it right now, lol.

I read that hands need to consist of at least a Dredger and a discard outlet (and draw) at the bare minimum. I assume its the same regardless of which Dredge deck I'm playing, right?

Also, for reference, my SB:

4 Nature's Claim
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Ray of Revelation
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn
1 Ichorid
And other things I can't remember for some reason.

My question is, are Ray of Revelations as useful as they were before? I'm seeing a bunch of artifact-based hate, but enchantment-based hate has seemed to have disappeared.

And I hate asking for this, but what would people generally side in and out for specific match-ups? My list is pretty standard LEDless, if that helps.

Thanks!

I am unsure for what to side, but with Rest in Peace being an actual deck, yes I would keep enchantment hate.

[Mr. Froggy]

LED dredge is only a half a turn to a whole turn faster than it's counterpart. LEDless can, and quite often does, go off on turn two.

Mulligans will help you find that perfect hand.

The best combination to go off with is LED+LED+Land+Breakthrough+Grave Troll(x2). But in all seriousness check out the primer, it is quite informative in regards to ideal hands to keep.

And goldfish practice hands to know what can get there and what can't.

I saw what you mean, I went off Turn 2 a couple of times. Maybe I just need some practice, lol.

[Fizzeler]

Taking Dredge to Baltimore (second Open with Dredge hopefully I don't face another Propaganda from Fish )

My list
4 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Faithless Looting
4 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Putrid Imp
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Ichorid
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below
3 Breakthrough
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Flayer Of The Hatebound
4 Narcomoeba
1 Tarnished Citadel
3 Careful Study

SB: 3 Nature's Claim
SB: 2 Memory's Journey
SB: 3 Leyline Of The Void
SB: 3 Nether Shadow
SB: 1 Careful Study (this slot is open as of now thinking Darkblast or Firestorm)
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 Griselbrand
SB: 1 Ichorid

Considering cutting a Thug for a maindeck Darkblast as well

[4zureSky]

Taking Dredge to Baltimore (second Open with Dredge hopefully I don't face another Propaganda from Fish )

My list
4 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Faithless Looting
4 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Putrid Imp
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Ichorid
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below
3 Breakthrough
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Flayer Of The Hatebound
4 Narcomoeba
1 Tarnished Citadel
3 Careful Study

SB: 3 Nature's Claim
SB: 2 Memory's Journey
SB: 3 Leyline Of The Void
SB: 3 Nether Shadow
SB: 1 Careful Study (this slot is open as of now thinking Darkblast or Firestorm)
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 Griselbrand
SB: 1 Ichorid

Considering cutting a Thug for a maindeck Darkblast as well

Good luck! I've already cut 2 thugs for 2 darkblasts and I'll tell ya.. those utilities saved my ass a bunch of times!

[Fizzeler]

Good luck! I've already cut 2 thugs for 2 darkblasts and I'll tell ya.. those utilities saved my ass a bunch of times!

Thanks!

I have been doing very well with Dredge recently (it seems no one has hate anymore outside Surgical? I added in Journeys over cards I never board in because of that and to screw with Enlightened Tutor) at the LGS I goto the last times I took it I went undefeated (comparatively I take any other deck and go like 2-2 or something), the main thing the local meta has taught me is Combo match-ups and Control, how to win games 2 and 3 in those cases

I still need more testing against Maverick and RUG (okay mainly Maverick), I am fortunate Maverick players haven't caught on to playing Militant and Deathrite Shaman when they are on the draw is a turn to slow

I also finally got the hand of siding out LEDs, I have been winning game 2 by not playing into hate while still exploding turn 2 or 3

EDIT: and if I hardcast another Grave-Troll I am taking a snapshot, seriously still surprised I did that