Originally Posted by angel882
The extra body is not totally irellevant. The EsperDecks in my meta plays Spell Pierce as only counter also, so Stoneforge works around their counters. The card advantage is also not too bad, getting a 1/2 and a Jitte to attach it is nice. Also, when you play sylvan library the shuffle effect from stoneforge is really nice.
Its a love hate relationship this damn Stoneforge, as someone pointed out a couple of pages back I hated the card, now I am back playing it. I guess that the card improves the miracle/stoneblade matchup too much to cut it but I would not go that route against RUG/Goblins since it is too slow.
Playing sfm + SoLaS doesn't seem totally out of place as its tutorable protection for your Teeg. Safekeeper is good too but adding another dimension to keeping him stp safe seems very playable. As well as the recent uptick in decks splashing black can give added efficiency.
The last two pages are the answer to the question "Why is Maverick disappearing from SCG's T16?".
People defending bad cards (MD Maze of Ith, MD Path to Exile, SoL&S) and trying at alla costs to play sub-par cards to show they're trying to "innovate" the archetype
The deck can still do well if built and played correctly, for reference, here's what I've come to after a lot of games (yes, unlike Koby I DO playtest the ideas I talk about) against the field, as in "existing decks" not fringe decks like Enchantress, Death and Taxes, Pox and the like.
Sure, you might see one every now and then making results, but it's hardly relevant in a large tournament and, unless you know the metagame you're facing deck by deck, it's pointless to prepare against them.
4 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Savannah
4 Wasteland
3 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Mother of Runes
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sylvan Library
1 Garruk Relentless
Sideboard
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pithing Needle
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Path to Exile
2 Krosan Grip
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Metagame slot
This is what I've come to after lots of games and I'd play this list in a big tourney, some explanation might be needed for those out of touch with the reality of the metagame:
4 Wasteland
Mandatory.
Team America and Canadian are a big part of the meta and with a manabase as fragile as theirs, landing a Wasteland or two leaves them screwed.
Against Miracles they buy you a turn to try and assemble the Teeg + protection, be it Safekeeper, Mother or Greaves (no, I'm not joking, the card IS good against Miracles, costing 3 mana less than SoL&S and doing the exact same job you people are using it for).
They also keep your opponent off odd stuff like Explosives/Ratchet Bomb recursion via Academy Ruins or slow down S&T a bit.
3 Cavern of Souls
I'd never play any less than 2 of these, with 3 being the right number in a metagame where Daze and Force of Will are king, where Counterbalance is a real card and Chalice of the Void is a random card that sees some play.
1 Gaea's Cradle
With the 4 MD Thalia, this card is needed to play your higher CC cards or play a PW/Zenith outside of Pierce range.
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
In a field so full of spell based decks, she's queen and one of the first targets for your opponent's removal.
Be it Storm, S&T, Canadian or BUG, she hinders their game a whole lot because they're always short on mana and Making that S&T cost 4 or leaving them unable to play free counters/removal is invaluable.
The point of playing 4 is that you want to see two in every game where they're relevant since the first one usually dies/gets countered and you want to have one back into play ASAP.
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
A Zenith'able Mother of Runes that has no summoning sickness and this comes in handy A LOT against Miracles, the main reason this dude made it into the MD.
It has fringe uses in the Burn MU by lowering your non-basic count to avoid being blown away by Price of Progress and in the mirror by protecting youd dudes from removal better than a SoL&S can ever do.
You surely DO NOT want this in the Canadian MU because saccing lands against a mana denial deck = bad.
2 Umezawa's Jitte
No other equipment should be needed in this metagame if you know what the deck does and needs.
2 Sylvan Library
Never leave home with less than two.
More is overkill, less is bad because you want to see this in a reasonable amount of time.
Surely not your main 2CC slot nor the play you always do on turn 2, tho.
1 Garruk Relentless
I already explained this guy a few pages back, but let's get over this again.
In the mirror 2/2 (or 1/1 Deathtouch) > 1/1 from Elspeth and killing a Mom and flipping this guy isn't bad either, because it gets even better by letting you recycle useless critters like mid-game Hierarchs or Dryad Arbors for value, while having an ultimate that blows your opponent out of the game.
Against Miracle, Elspeth has a useless Ultimate making your creatures indestructible against a deck that Exiles and Puts on Bottom and the always mediocre 1/1, while 2/2s put more pressure.
If you manage to flip Garruk (be it by killing a Snapcaster or one of your own dudes) you can use the -1 to tutor up the pieces of your soft lock: Safekeeper and Gaddock.
The Ultimate is hit or miss, because they usually don't have any GY removal spell against you and Garruk is a sac outlet to avoid Exile and Bottom of Library.
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Bojuka Bog
You'll love these against Canadian, but they're here for Reanimator, ANT and Dredge mostly.
Those are decks that, even if not in the usual T16, can easily be found in the first 3-4 rounds before they lose to better and more popular decks, but you need these to have a chance to win.
3 Pithing Needle
Why waste good slots for a reactive card like Chant/Silence, when you can just Needle Miracle's Top and look at them struggle while drawing their 6CC stuff and having it stuck in hand, unable to manipulate their topdecks?
It also comes in against decks playing Pernicious Deed (the card that owns this deck, remember?), Deathrite Shaman (making it a vanilla 1/2), Engineered Explosives, Aether Vial and, why not, Jace (good bye Miracle), Liliana, Tezzeret, Elspeth and random cards like Mangara, Helm of Obedience, Thopther Foundry and such.
2 Krosan Grip
Humility is Bad, Counterbalance not so much but why risk, Moat is bad, Cursed Totem is bad bad bad and opposing equipment is bad too, not to mention Dread of Night.
This solves all of the above problems and more while being nigh impossible to counter, instant and in colour.
2 Gaddock Teeg
Just for the Miracle MU, having one on the board at all times is crucial and you want to replace one as fast as it leaves the table.
If you don't expect many Miracles take one out to free a slot.
2 Metagame slot, usually ORing in my SB
I usually have ORings as a catch-all answer to most of the deck's problems, be it Jace, Liliana or S&T, but feel free to take these out in favor of other cards more suited to your metagame.
Once upon a time, when Counterspell and Ancestral Recall were still living in the Garden, they ate the fruit from the Tree of Making Noobs Cry.
And it tasted good.
But now all blue cards must suffer for their sin.
I agree with most of Jiozy's conclusions here, except that I still like Maze of Ith. Also, he mentions Lightning Greaves but then says Jitte is the only equipment you need (I agree with that, but why mention the Lightning Greaves?). And while I do like and play Garruk, let's not forget Elspeth's jumping ability, which is what I think you use more than her soldier ability, especially in the mirror. (Sure, it's not as great against angels, but usually if you're facing more than one miracled angel, you've probably already lost.)
The earlier comments here suggest that people are thinking of the Maze primarily as a defensive tool. I would say that Maze is something like 75% offensive: Swing with Knight, untap after damage, then he's free to tutor a land as well.
For example, a couple of pages back, someone posted how they kept from swinging with their Knight for 3 turns because they knew their Storm opponent would go off if she was tapped. Except if he had kept his Maze in his deck, he could have fetched the Maze at EOT, and from there started swinging and keeping the Knight untapped.
It's true, it's weak to Wasteland, like most of the rest of lands in the deck, but if you use it judiciously, you can limit that weakness. Of course you rarely want to draw it naturally, you want it in your library to tutor for it with a Knight. At worst, it gets wasted and feeds your Knights. At best, it wins you the game. Of course, there are times you don't need it (it's not better than the SB alternatives against Miracles, for instance), but it's usually one of the last cards I side out because it can make for such a potent clock with your Knights.
A couple people have commented here on how Sneak Show is a bad matchup. In my experience, Sneak Show is not that bad, because you can drop a Knight in and tutor for Karakas, and neither of those can be countered. Against Sneak Attack, you generally have 2-3 anti-enchantments main deck in the form of Pridemages, and could bring in Krosans post board. Also, even if they get a snuck in Emrakul, you can still come back and win, especially if you can keep/land a Knight, which will likely be huge. (Someone mentioned Thornscape Apprentice... this seems just terrible; I'd rather add Matsu-Tribe Sniper to the board if I were going that route.)
Omni-show is harder because one of your main answers, Karakas, is nullified if they land an Omniscience, and if you don't have a Thalia, Canonist, or Teeg, they can just win on the spot with Petals of Insight. So, they have a more varied arsenal. On the other hand, they are more likely to not have gas even if they land Omniscience, giving you more time to get Pridemage.
I like a lot of Jiaozy's analysis as well, but one thing is that without a tutor effect like SFM, having a singleton equipment like Lightning Greaves isn't really going to do much for you in the grand scheme of things since you're not going to ever consistently see it.
Comments about upper analysis:
3 Caverns is too much - 2 perfect - actually I'm playing 7 fetchlands, 4 duals, 3 basics, 4 waste, 4 utility lands(all gives mana) this gives 23 lands total enough for thalia in play, enough for stifle proof, an more over enough to cast Swords to Plowshers before dying to flipped delver or having qasali/ooze/GSZ stucked in hand.
I avoid lands like Cradle where they are conditional advantage - it only gives a way to punish you double - resilent is a key here.
For sure O-rings should be in you additinal 15 sb case - OmniTell is real deal and you don't have to much ways to interact - non MD cards gives a trigger to have a time to answer S&T Omni.
I suggest to replace Needle to Revoker which can be protected - false protection like needle vs deck running decay's can be very painful - simply scenerio Deed on table - Needled - you put on more and more utility creatures then puff you lose bacause you thought u can ignore Deed, as for Nic Fit decks plainslwakers are needed specially Elspeth which gives a jump which was mention before.
I don't know how does Crypts helps against Canadian - for Mangoose ? Really better put Engineered Explosives which also helps against EtW which is your autolose. Good advice - 1 EE (works well against Miracle EtA, EtW, ******** too, I would put it even vs mirror to blow up opponent mom's, works well as aditional removal) and 1 E.Tutor instead of 2 Crypts - unless your meta is total infested by Dredge/Reanimator - On bigger tournaments you will face more diversity decks (specially in first rounds after byes), EE also can help against Affinity which can be very painful without Maze of Ith (Champion is a beast which can't be beaten.
I like your decklist, but not your stance with respect to the Swords.
The Swords of X and Y are only worth running if you're also running Stoneforge Mystic to tutor up the right equipment when you need it, and you shouldn't be running Stoneforge Mystic. If you are, however, SoLS is still much better than any non-Jitte piece of equipment you could be running (but you should just be running more Jittes).
That being said, no disagreements with your list whatsoever, since you don't run any Stoneforges or Swords of X and Y.
You write a very good report, jiaozy!
I think 3 CoS are to much. 2 are perfect. If you cut one CoS you could add a SfM(+Lightning Greaves SB), MB Linvala or maybe Thrun.
Imo 23 lands are enough.
It's confusing. You wrote that players defending bad cards, like PtE, but add it to your SB. Could you explain that?
I would swap it against O-Ring. Removal for everything is better than PtE imo.
I like Fatals idea, with 1Etutor, 1Crypt, 1EE, and then maybe 1Needle and 2Revoker, because you can protect them with MoR or Sylvan Safekeeper.
I also miss a SB card against Storm Combo(or Elves). Why do you don't play Ethersworn Canonis (maybe also with Etutor)?
Are you able to explain the mu against goblins, merfolk and d&t with your decklist? The goblin mu is very important for me.
I very like your Deck! I'm going to test your Build.
I agree! Stupid card choices are RUINING!111 Mav. So...
Let's all play Greaves.
I mean, SoL&S has way less applications(no, really, I managed to keep a straight face on the entire time while writing this)
Today I split the finals in a 90-people tournament. I played maverick with aether vials. If anybody is interested I can post my list and pairings.
Nothing is true, everything is permitted...
Please do
@all: in my list there's no space for the Greaves, but playing SFM at least as a 1of you can easily replace a Gaddock in the board with them.
Or pay 3 more mana for nothing relevant in the Miracle MUs (but you can't realize this without TESTING)
In this meta where Daze and Force are in basically each and every other deck in the T8s, 3 Caverns are a must, 2 might be okay if in your meta there's less Canadian, BUG, Miracle and Stoneblade but more Goblin, ANT and Mirror where Cavern isn't needed.
I had Linvala in the MD when the meta was Maverick + Canadian, but put it into the SB with the rise of Miracle.
I never really liked Thrun because on its own isn't spectacular, since Miracle can chump it or Terminus it away anyway.It's the MD Path to Exile that is stupid.
Unless you know 100% of your meta and make the choice because there's just mirror, Goblin and Canadian, then playing 5 STP MD is just useless.
In the SB it comes in handy against those matches, where cards like Thalia, Safekeeper or Qasali aren't stellar and you have to side them out and you need fast and cheap answers to Lackey, Delver or Mother of Runes.I didn't even consider Revoker because without Mother or Safekeeper is even more fragile than Needle is.
Sure, Needle dies to Decay, but JUST THAT.
It survives Damnation, STP, Terminus, Ghastly Demise, Disfigure, Submerge, Liliana, Massacre, Darkblast and so on and so forth.
Needle on Deed is like Needle on Top in the UW MU, it just buys you time and you know it won't stay there forever but it'll hinder their Miracles just for a while because they'll eventually find a Disenchant for it or Brainstorm/Jace to put the Terminus on top and play it for, but in the meantime you beat their faces and OBVIOUSLY don't overextend into a sweeper like you won't overextended into a Deed!
Usually if the meta has Slow Combo (S&T) there will hardly be any fast combo, otherwise they'd disappear because unable to race the fastest combo decks, so those two slots are for the combo MU of your choice, be it Elves/ANT (where Canonist is perfect) or S&T (like in my case, with ORing).Goblins are, as usual, extremely dependant on who's going first and how does it start.
If he's on the play and starts with a Lackey, you should avoid him conneting, be it by chumping with Hierarch/Mom or by StP, if you can't then you're in for a hard one, if, on the other hand, he starts with a Vial you're more than happy since it lets you another turn and another draw to find an answer or play a blocker for the Lackey.
Post SB you take out all the Thalia (they usually play 4 Vial and little else that's non-creature) and Safekeeper for Path to Exile, Needle to stop their Vials and Ports and let you play your game and Linvala to stop Krenko, Tinkerer, Sharpshooter and Siege-Gang Commander.
In this MU the old saying "Jitte wins alone" is as true as it might be.Another reason why the deck is doing poorly.
People with no test, results nor any kind of knowledge of the deck, idea nor reasoning that spams the thread posting just because they have an account.
Go back playing Burn, kid.
You can be sarcastic as much as you want, but when your Gaddock will get killed in response to you spending FIVE mana, a SFM and 2 to 3 turns to protect him from STP and you'll lose the game, think about Greaves.
Once upon a time, when Counterspell and Ancestral Recall were still living in the Garden, they ate the fruit from the Tree of Making Noobs Cry.
And it tasted good.
But now all blue cards must suffer for their sin.
One of the biggest mistake playing against Goblins on play - thinking you can chump Lackey - simply most time you can't - any good player will keep lackey+removal on play, you will get Gemplam/Weirding/Stingscourger - that's why some lists running additional removal.
Can you tell me where Linvala is good against Canadian ?
About Lightning Greaves haste is sometimes much better than you think :]
I know but it'd be FAR worse to let Lackey through to save your MoR or Hierarch and, if you don't have any StP you should just throw your little dude in front of it.It's not, why do you ask?
Once upon a time, when Counterspell and Ancestral Recall were still living in the Garden, they ate the fruit from the Tree of Making Noobs Cry.
And it tasted good.
But now all blue cards must suffer for their sin.
I'm sure youre the only person in the world that tests. I mean, It totally isn't like you to say this 5 times on 1 page alone.....
I'm also sure your testing and results are the only things that are valid, ever. Because, you know, all dem results and stuff.
Couldn't think of what I was going to do with my self any longer because I play burn. How did you tell? You're good. That must be it.
Safekeeper.
Does everything you want from Greaves with added bonus of sometimes it's on turn 1, which Greaves will never be, also the whole Green Sun's thing. And instant speed, so, they can't Plow in response to Equip triggers. Also, Mom.
The other abilities of SoL&S out perform Greaves, by far. Recurring pridemage can be relevant, but mostly getting back a countered anything and dealing the 2 extra damage alone makes Greaves look silly. This is only for 1 Match Up, now consider all the other match ups where SoL&S>Greaves. It isn't even close.
Edit: May not have made myself clear amdist all that sarcasm.
Greaves doesn't have any better reason to be in the deck than the 5 protection creatures, which is after all what Greaves is going to do for the deck. And It is not better to have in play against Miracles than Swords of Light and Shadow because all the targeted removal is still targeted, attempting to equip Greaves doesn't change this. When either is equipped Sword also grants extra abilities(+2/2 is no small buff in a game of 20)
I would not sb out Safekeeper vs Goblin atleist on the draw, becasue of Lackey.
You and I have a similar point off view on the deck. Back to basic with nothing fancy bad cards.
Only card I really disagree with you on is Tormod's Crypt.
"You'll love these against Canadian, but they're here for Reanimator, ANT and Dredge mostly."
I would never sb it in against Canadian. And of those 3 other decks only one is DTB, and thats ANT and here I would rather chose other cards. But in a big tournament is allways nice with some grave hat more then Ooze but I would chose 1 or 2 Surgical Extraction. Because of Show decks and ANT will sb in answer against permanents.
Regarding PtE I agree with you, no MD and 1 or 2 in SB.
Last edited by Goosen; 11-25-2012 at 02:41 PM.
Why? Because of Mongoose?
I have next issue to resolve:
Scenerio BUG/Junk Middle-range:
It runs a lot of removal, also Pernicous Deeds (then good it seems less in play since Deathrite Shaman), but fast Liliana bacome more issue than many players thoughts.
If it cast in early turns it can be very devastating, if opponent cast it while you have only 1 creature in play, it's mean advantage on opponent side.
Actually I thinking about GSZ 1-of which can be cheap effective creature with haste additional it have to be handy in other MU.
Pool to tests:
Vengevine - good beater with useful ability, but seems rather poor actually since Shamans and Oozes are real deal, also cost 5 from Zenith which can be to late. Good side it can take off Jace.
Stangleroot Geist - looks quite well, cheap cost and can take off Liliana since turn 3. It also survive all black-based removal, bad site - it can't kill Jace with 3 counters.
Groundbreaker - 6/1 Trample is nice finisher but it dies at EOT so it doesn't give any advantage, useful only as additional dmg. Cost 4 from GSZ. Cost to cast can be sometimes an issue.
My list:
Maindeck
3 Birds of Paradise
4 Mother of Runes
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Weathered Wayfarer
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Scryb Ranger
1 Eternal Witness
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sylvan Library
4 AEther Vial
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Forest
2 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Savannah
1 Rishadan Port
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuka Bog
Sideboard
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Krosan Grip
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Path to Exile
1 Crop Rotation
1 Eladamri's Call
I played against:
1: BUG Shardless agent 1-1
2: RUG Delver 2-0
3: Goblins 2-1
4: Elves 1-2
5: BG pox-like pernicious deed control 2-0
6: Dredge 2-1
7: BUG midrange 1-0
Top8: Legacy Jund with p-fire 2-1
Top4: Elves 2-1
I've been playing this list for 3 months, I like it more than zenith lists because of good % against miracles and easier games against combo-decks.
Nothing is true, everything is permitted...
Thanks for sharing!
But I would not consider that to be a Maverick with AV deck thou, more a Death and Taxes deck with green.
Off topic: I have been thinking about trying a DaT deck, I will consider your build aswell.
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