Are you still using the sideboard with the Lands, Abrupt Decays, and the Virtue's Ruins?Originally Posted by Koby
I moved some of the duals into the main (Bayou/Trop main) and a backup Trop and 3 Karakas SB.
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Thx, that's a better answer to me. I'll keep trying.
I likely can't get a hold of another Grim after destroying my binder at GP Chicago to pick up my first(yay!). However, I still think that the 8th discard spell over the 2nd Snap is correct, but I'm not sure if a singleton Snap is worth it over something like Preordain. Thoughts?
A decent way to goldfish against Burn is to set up a scenario where your goldfish always plays 1 land a turn, and has infinite lava spikes in their hand (but each piece of disruption is -3 damage). T1 - Take 3, T2 - Take 6, etc.. It kills you on their T4 and find that it's around average with normal burn speeds, if not a *tiny* bit faster than their average goldfish.
I put my ANT deck down this week. Played a local with Uwb blade, deck is way underpowered. Time to resleeve the grim tutors.
Yet another top 16 in a 100+ people tournament. Stuck in my UBg(r) list, still thinking the plays that GT gives are far superior than the flexibility BW grants. Made a 5-2 losing the final and decisive match against MUD (2-1) because a terrible missplay of mine in addition to a topdeck of him. The otehr loss was against BUG which is a bad match up, just happened the regular: discard, some pressure and well played countermagic destroyed my hope of winning this match.
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Iņaki.-
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Thinking about cutting AN. I maybe win 1 of 20 games with the card and at that point it is just not worth it. it's greatest advantage is those turn 1-2 kills but even then i'd almost rather have empty.
95% of my games are all PiF. Where I can use my life total a bit more to just draw cards and buy time.
I understand how awesome it is versus the clockless control decks but it doe not come up enough for me and at that point the PiF route is just easier and more flexible, even versus grave hate.
going to give it some more thought and testing.
Congrats on your finish! I actually was just looking at ANT lists and I saw yours! Looks very good!
Thankfully I just won a tournament giving me a free Grim Tutor. But what do you think of the deck with just one in the mainboard, what would you replace it with if you didn't have a second one (another hand discard, preordain, Chrome Mox)?? I don't think I can find another one in my area haha! I do have a few concerns about the deck though. How's putting more duals in the deck affected the mana base? How's the 4 pieces of Graveyard hate in the side?
I've had similar thoughts, the idea being Ad Nauseam is more of a turn 2 combo card where you've already been subjected to Thought Seize or Counterbalance compared to Empty the Warrens which is more of a turn 1 combo card with a delayed win timer that has a higher utility vs RUG, Merfolk etc. than Ad Nauseam does, and being able to cut Chrome Mox completely is amazing.
Being able to unload turn 1 is a lot more valuable than being able to unload turn 2 in terms of bypassing hate and anything Empty the Warrens isn't particularly good against then Pif is amazing against with the exception of aggro, and honestly aggro just gets hit with Ill Gotten Gains post-board.
It's not ideal but you can always replace the 2nd GT with a Personal Tutor. It's not that bad tbh. Either that or a 2nd preordain as you want to be able to dig for the 5 tutors (vs 7 in the BW lists).
Even being thoughtseized they take probably the piece that enables the line. Also a blind CB trigger can just ruin your day if they happen to hit relevant cmc(0,1, 2, or 5), when pulling the trigger blind. I have not really touched IGG in a while, I was able to turn 2 a burn player with PiF just fine and also had about one more turn to live and set it up if need be.
The amount of cards that need to be in your hand to enable an early AN is pretty large (rit + IT + LED + 1 more mana and that is with zero floating) and whiffing with AN is a very, very real thing, also with that hand it is almost more servicable to PiF, if another card is a single ritual you win on the spot, if it is another LED or petal you can probably almost get there, instead of flipping and hoping not to die or not flip more action to AN. Do not know, will look into it some more. Also AN has severely diminishing returns as the game goes on, where PiF just gets better. The same argument can be said about their roles in the early game but flipped, so I guess there is that.
Maybe I am just using it incorrectly, and should just be using it as a draw 6-7 (comes up quite frequently).
I don't think it's worth it to cut -- it's excellent against any slower discard deck (most BUG, Esper, etc), and it's pretty damn good against any straight slow deck (usually various versions of U/W), and it gives you a tutor target when your opponent has maindeck graveyard hate (which is a thing now that Deathrite Shaman is a card). If it were only in there for turn 1-ness, I'd say cut it for another Grim Tutor, Iggy, or Past in Flames, but it does do other things. I do board it out fairly often, but it brings an awful lot to the table for just 1 slot -- even if you're winning just 1/20 games with it, that's probably worth it for a single slot in the 75.
Is Grim Tutor a necessity? I understand that it is a very good card, but is it the end all be all card for the deck? I am debating playing this deck, but This is the one card I probably could not aquire.
@Megadeus
Grim tutor adds so much consistency to both the burning wish and 2x grim version that is definitely is. I didn't own grims for awhile I tried with out them and at that point TES is a much better deck.
Grim Tutor adds the much needed 6th and possibly 7th business spell to the wishless version. In the UBr lists it's the best tutor for the board if you want the infernal tutors main (which you should).
On the idea of cutting Ad Nauseam for Empty the Warrens, I'm considering it too. Goblins are the better plan against most tempo decks and often still fine against aggro. You want to kill most opponents with a tutor chain or a graveyard engine anyways in g1. You can still board the Ad Nauseam to bring in against slow/discard decks or decks with too much graveyard hate. And it's pretty awesome to play ANT without the AN :P.
37th GP Ams'11 | 80th GP Stras '13 | 5th BoM Paris '13 | 12th GP Lille '15
I just bought two Grim Tutors last week, so I'm about to start testing.
I'm familiar with Storm, but I have never played an Ad Nauseam deck in any event.
Is 15 lands enough? I've never played a Storm deck with less than 16, so I have a second Volcanic Island in place of the Duress you were talking about. I'm also not entirely sure about playing green duals in the main because of Wasteland. Do you find it to ever get you in trouble? Also, if I don't make that switch...the original 4 Therapy/3 Duress choice was because of the Snapcaster Mages in the emidln's list, right? I haven't made the switch yet, but I'm guessing Duress is going to be better since I'm not quite a Legacy Jedi yet so my educated guesses when I use Therapy are more guess than education right now.
And finally, what is your sideboard looking like if you made those changes between the main and sideboards?
While we're in the Grim Tutor discussion, could someone familiar with the UBr (burning wish) and the UBg (2 grim tutor) version do a quick summary of the pro's and con's of each build? I do know the main details such as abrupt decay being great at clearing CB's, and burning wishes giving you an alternative win con with the EtW. However, I'm curious as to which build is a bit more resilient, quicker, etc. Also, in the BW build, do you usually burning wish for a grim tutor the turn before going off, or is it somehow incorporated in the combo turn?
I can't imagine needing a 2nd volcanic, since PiF is easily castable off LED. I think if you're not on a MD green source that 16th land is either an island or a fetch that can get one. I think 16 land is correct, but I've always preferred land heavy decks.
On the MD trop, wasteland definitely comes up occasionally, I know I've lost games because it wasn't a basic...just playtest with both configurations, then decide whether the extra SB space is worth it (this is by far the most common change I make to my 60, actually).
On Duress vs Therapy, I like duress a little more than therapy anyway since I dislike Snapcaster - either way, the deck is going to play very similarly with a 4/3 vs 3/4 split.
On SB, mine is currently 1 trop, 1 iggy, 3 thoughtseize, 3 karakas, 2 chain of vapor, 3 abrupt decay, 2 maverick board wipe cards. I am testing 3 Xantid over a chain, iggy, and seize, and it seems OK to me in a lot of matchups, haven't really made a decision. If you want a 2nd Trop in the SB, cut a Chain or a Karakas, or you can probably cut one of the Maverick cards, as that deck hasn't been popular enough recently to be worth dedicated SB slots in many metas.
On grim vs bw - some people play bw because it gives them maindeck outs to hate bears. The biggest reason I dislike BW is it stretches the mana so far. Other downsides are it obviously loses at least 3 SB slots. The UBg version downsides are mainly ad nauseam is awful (Grim = 6 life), and it's slightly slower (generally can't just vomit out 12 goblins).
Last edited by aaronm678; 11-30-2012 at 11:56 AM.
Sometimes I think about cutting the 1 volcanic, but it is occasionally quite useful. I was even able to masquerade as RUG delver w/a basic island against bant once in game 1.
Burning wish is awful because this deck is slow and wish doesn't get any good cards or it has to grab a grim tutor, which takes approx. infinite mana to combo with. And if you're always wishing for grim tutor why not just play grim tutor over wish? It saves you lots of sideboard space.
A lot of discussion is happening around AdN. The main problem I have is that if I draw the 1 of ad nauseam it is usually a lot better than drawing the 1 of PiF without a tutor unless I also have the 1 of tendrils. So if AdN is replaced directly with an IGG or PiF then we're reducing our live draws. Also, gravehate is a thing always side in against me if they have it so relying on IGG or PiF completely doesn't sound good at all and putting an AdN in the board to circumvent this problem doesn't really do much as it is still taking up a slot. Also really don't want to add IGG when blue is dominating right now, and we have to be able to use our LED and/or lotus petal heavy draws to combo out (I know this has come up several times in the games I've played where I draw lots of artifact mana so I can't PiF FTW.)
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@Namida
If the deck wants to use Ad Nauseam fairly often I'd play the 1st mox over the 16th land. In a version which hardly uses it a 16th land would be fine. Therapy is better than duress if there's alot of permanent hate cards in people their MD's (e.g. Thalia). If there's more blue decks I'd play 4 Duress.
In the UBr version you can run a 2nd Volcanic if you want to run Pulverize in the board as a 3rd red source. If you're splashing green in the board I'd prefer a MD trop though.
@ac3eb
Wish is better if there's loads of Maverick-esque decks where you need solutions. It is, however, a terrible business spell fairly often. The wish version is also slightly faster. Wishing for tutor can happen on the combo turn or before, depending on your mana etc.
The UBg version has more stable mana, a better sideboard and high consistency.
@Dark Ritual
We'd be replacing the Ad Nauseam with Empty the Warrens, not an additional GY engine. Empty is a great draw, although our limited access to red mana makes it slightly worse than Ad Nauseam to just draw.
37th GP Ams'11 | 80th GP Stras '13 | 5th BoM Paris '13 | 12th GP Lille '15
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