[Deck] The Rock

[Sughayyer]

Hey guys, I've been out for a while, but now I'm getting back! Now that the year is ending I'll have a little more time to paly and to brew....

I'd like to ask, where is this deck right now? I'vebeen hearing different stuff, I've seen jund lists and bug lists, and pretty much everything with green and black is running shaman.
I'll probably sleeve this deck again, but what is the best direction right now? Tempo (like I played before), midrange, stoneforge package... keep W? Splash any other color?
My last list, if I remember was something like


4 seize
4 hymn
4 plowshares
3 decay
1 pulse
3 moxen
3 top
4 bob
4 goyf
4 kotr
2 liliana
1 garruk relentless
and the same 23 lands everyone was running (4 waste and 1 maze included)

Does this still work? I tampered a bit with shaman, and I liked him, after all, but he never gets to stay long enough on the field... when i tested him, it was against a bug and a jund, and I was completely smashed.

Thanks again, and I hope I'll stick for a longer time now!

[Mr. Safety]

How viable would a Sinkhole/Vindicate/Wasteland + Loam/Crucible build be right now? Curious...Sinkhole is at its lowest price in a long time (Unlimited ones are about $32 a piece ATM) and it seems that a heavy land disruption approach could be good.

Thoughts?

[Sughayyer]

@Mr. Safety
I see you like LD strategy. But sinkholes are getting cheaper because it's not being used anymore.
See, you do 2 or 3 mana (sinkhole or vindicate) to destroy a land. Assuming your opponent didn't counter you, nor use a reliquary to sac that land and get another one, he can simply daze the land away (in the case of canadian and team america)... and even if you spend 2 or 3 mana to crack a land, with *one* mana (you spent at least 2 remember) they can ponder/brainstorm/spin the top and find another land.

A while ago I saw your list full of 3-drops, and you said that canadian was not a problem... how the matches turned out?

[sdematt]

I'm now 6000 words into my article. Prepare for a long read or a two-parter.

The article is now mostly done, I'm just going to get some proofreading done and format it a bit and see how we're going to release it.

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

Hey guys, I've been out for a while, but now I'm getting back! Now that the year is ending I'll have a little more time to paly and to brew....

I'd like to ask, where is this deck right now? I'vebeen hearing different stuff, I've seen jund lists and bug lists, and pretty much everything with green and black is running shaman.
I'll probably sleeve this deck again, but what is the best direction right now? Tempo (like I played before), midrange, stoneforge package... keep W? Splash any other color?
My last list, if I remember was something like


4 seize
4 hymn
4 plowshares
3 decay
1 pulse
3 moxen
3 top
4 bob
4 goyf
4 kotr
2 liliana
1 garruk relentless
and the same 23 lands everyone was running (4 waste and 1 maze included)

Does this still work? I tampered a bit with shaman, and I liked him, after all, but he never gets to stay long enough on the field... when i tested him, it was against a bug and a jund, and I was completely smashed.

Thanks again, and I hope I'll stick for a longer time now!

goyf, bob, knight, shaman plus any number of spells seems to be the popular choice. All other cards are pretty much debatable. We are awaiting Matt's bug tourney report any day now!

[Mirrislegend]

@ Matt:

How was it having so little acceleration, especially with GSZ?

Did you ever find yourself wishing for more anti combo cards? How about wishing for the 4th Abrupt Decay?

I cut Dryad Arbor cuz it kept screwing me over. Clearly it was good for you based on your tournament report, but would you reconsider it in a more Wasteland heavy field?

[Mr. Safety]

@Mr. Safety
I see you like LD strategy. But sinkholes are getting cheaper because it's not being used anymore.
See, you do 2 or 3 mana (sinkhole or vindicate) to destroy a land. Assuming your opponent didn't counter you, nor use a reliquary to sac that land and get another one, he can simply daze the land away (in the case of canadian and team america)... and even if you spend 2 or 3 mana to crack a land, with *one* mana (you spent at least 2 remember) they can ponder/brainstorm/spin the top and find another land.

A while ago I saw your list full of 3-drops, and you said that canadian was not a problem... how the matches turned out?

I actually like Arena better than Bob in that matchup...it can't be Bolt-ed and most players don't counter it like they would Bob. They should, but they don't. The hold their counters for Knight, GSZ, and other threats. If I get to use a discard on them, I almost always pick Spell Pierce. Force 2-for-1's them and a free Daze slows down their development enough, especially if I get an early Wasteland, so I'd rather just play around daze and let them dump their goo with Force. Then my removal can get in and create parity. Generally, I've found that a strong board-control approach, along with a way to get extra cards like Bob, Arena, or Library, trumps a strong stack-control approach. Abrupt Decay is definately the best card against Canadian, and Deathrite Shaman is good at making my three drops seem like two drops, keeping pace with their faster tempo.

So far I've only played one match, went 2-1 (online.) I've dropped Loam altogether (it's just too much dead weight, honestly.) I worked in the 4th Wasteland, fixed my lands a little (dropped Nantuko Monastary, now only using Treetop Village) and the deck has been doing well. On the play with a turn one Deathrite Shaman is great, especially If I can use targeted discard to get a Liliana down. Then it's the same plan: establish parity by removing threats/discard and then ride a PW or Deathrite to victory (garruk, liliana, or Knight, which I think Matt is correct in saying is a PW in all aspects except for card type.)

A side note: both games I won were close, and the one I lost was a blowout. I got color-screwed off green (holy shit that's bad, I know right?) and had a fistful of green stuff.

I've also done a 2/2 split on Deed/Hymn, whereas before I've tried 3x of one or the other maindeck, the other in the side. I'm happy with it, I see quite a bit of goblins and affinity.

[dballard]

Hey guys, new to "The Rock" and just had a couple of card questions, forgive me if they've been discussed in the previous 196 pages.

I'm looking at some sort of inclusion of Life from the Loam, Raven's Crime and Terravore - any thoughts?

Also wondering about Vexing Shusher to help land some spells.

Lastly, in play testing I often hit both Sylvan Library and Sensei's Divining Top and I'm wondering if 2 of each is too much and if I were to drop one of them, which would it be?

Thanks for the help in advance.

[Mr. Safety]

Shusher might be just the right GSZ target to make the Canadian matchup better. Thanks for the reminder!

As far as Loam, Crime, and Terravore are concerned...It's a little too complicated. You're trying to assemble synergy when what you REALLY want is every card good on its own. Trust me...I've played a lot of different variations with Loam, and I recently dropped all copies. I played 4 for a while, then 3, then down to 1, now none. I'm considering a singleton for the sideboard because it's great against tempo decks, but I'm not sure my SB has room. If you're really into using Loam/Crime/Terravore, check out an Intuition/Loam BUG setup like 'The Mind Harvester.' Those cards lend themselves more to a grinding control deck than they do to a mid-range aggro-control deck like the Rock. *shrug* Just some personal experience. I love the Loam/cycle lands/R-Crime synergy, absolutely love it. It just isn't top tier, and I wanted to win more games against top tier decks.

[Sughayyer]

Hey everyone!

Played again after a long and cold winter :p went 3-0, and I conceeded the last match to a friend from my team (he top 4'd the national legacy event here in Brazil, playing bug - different list than team america, pratically a the rock with blue).

I ran the list:

Creatures:
4 deathrite shaman
4 dark confidant
4 tarmogoyf
4 knight of the reliquary

Removals:
4 swords to plowshares
3 abrupt decay
1 maelstrom pulse

Planeswalkers:
2 liliana of the veil
1 garruk relentless

Artifacts:
3 sensei's divining top

Discards:
3 thoughtseize
3 inquisition of kozilek

Lands;
4 marsh flats
4 verdant catacombs
4 wasteland
3 scrubland
2 bayou
1 overgrown tomb (meh)
1 karakas
1 sejiri steppe
1 swamp
1 horizon canopy
1 forest
1 maze of ith

Sideboard (a mess)

2 pernicious deed
2 oblivion ring
2 engineered plague (I thought there were going to be elves and goblins, but they didn't play their usual decks, so these were kept sleeping on the deckbox)
3 duress
1 life from the loam
1 extirpate
2 surgical extraction
1 bojuka bog
1 diabolic edict (don't know why, didn't ned it)

It's too late in the night to write a full report (I can do it later if you want) but I played agaisnt RUG (2-0, very easy matches), ant (2-1, first game I did mull to five but almost win nonetheless), GW maverick (2-0, VERY easy), and our BUG (I conceeded, but we played for fun, interesting results.... I won the first game and lost the other two thanks to hymn to tourach + snapcaster for hymn to tourach, made possible by shaman. Made me think about that card again....)

Well, thanks again, and good night!

[H0tmilk]

Would running jitte as a 2 of be worth it in the deck? Just curious on peoples thoughts.

[sdematt]

Would running jitte as a 2 of be worth it in the deck? Just curious on peoples thoughts.

I used to run two Jitte in 2011 and they were fine at the time. However, as of late, I have no slots for them, and perhaps not enough creature to run them. Jitte is never a bad card, so I'd definitely say give it a test for your build. what are you running?

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

Would running jitte as a 2 of be worth it in the deck? Just curious on peoples thoughts.

Our creatures are big enough. After trying SFM + equipment and just plain jittes I have switched back to the goyf plan because he is just much better than the crap people try to put into the red zone these days.

[godofallu]

Here is my current list. I'm having great success with it lately and am planning on going to a local tourney with it soon.

http://deckstats.net/deck-1686347-96...941063b67.html

Couple of points I think need to be talked about for Rock. Liliana and the discard package.

Personally when Liliana was first printed I dismissed her as being a bad removal spell not seeing the power of her +1. Now after playing with her a lot I think she is potentially the best card in the deck and I couldn't imagine not running her. She locks opponents out of games when combined with Confidant/Arena/KOTR + Horizons/SFaI and will put both players into topdeck mode quickly where this deck shines otherwise.

As far as the discard package goes I started Junk style with 6 1cc discard (even split of IOK and TS) and now currently play 0. I was told over and over that it is needed to have a chance against combo but frankly I don't find it to beat combo at all, and it just slows down the early game and is dead in the mid-late game weakening the entire strength of a midranged deck. Not sure if anyone else has tested cutting 1cc discard but I would love to hear the results of others on this.

[lordofthepit]

Time to fess up: I stated earlier didn't think Deathrite Shaman would make the cut in Rock.

While I still don't think it's as great as everyone claims it is, it's clear that most Rock decks appear to benefit from its inclusion at the cost of a mana rock or a Birds of Paradise. Congrats to sdematt (who I spoke to at SCG Seattle) for representing with the deck!

[H0tmilk]

2 top's
2 jitte
1 vindicate
1 maelstrom
2 abrupt decay
3 thoughtseize
3 gsz
4 swords
4 lingering souls
3 deathrite shaman
1 ooze
3 goyf
4 knight
4 bob
8 fetch
4 wasteland
1 arbor
1 karakas
1 maze
3 bayou
1 scrubland
1 savannah
1forest
1 swamp
1 plains

sideboard
1 Oring
2 garruk relentless
3 hymn
1 golgari charm
2 teeg
2 deed
1extripate
2 surgical
1 bajuka bog

This is the list I was considering for scg balt. with some possible changes to the SB i would like to fit zealous persicution in for the aggro match-ups.
anyway if anyone has some soild suggestions to this list please let me know.

[Zeckk]

Our creatures are big enough. After trying SFM + equipment and just plain jittes I have switched back to the goyf plan because he is just much better than the crap people try to put into the red zone these days.

It's not about the creature size, it's about the removal option. The SFM package is what gives us a realistic maindeck gameplan against tribal aggro and RUG. RUG now has to worry about deathrites, decay, AND batterskull + jitte. I've heard plenty of valid arguments for focusing on either the GSZ toolbox or the SFM package, but the biggest reason I'm running SFM right now is because it simply frees up more slots for sideboard. With such a great maindeck against most of the aggro lists, I really only have to devote 2 SB slots for E Plague, and possibly a darkblast. Everything else helps against our actual tough matchups, i.e. SnT, miracles, stoneblade, and ANT/High Tide/Storm.

[godofallu]

It's not about the creature size, it's about the removal option. The SFM package is what gives us a realistic maindeck gameplan against tribal aggro and RUG. RUG now has to worry about deathrites, decay, AND batterskull + jitte. I've heard plenty of valid arguments for focusing on either the GSZ toolbox or the SFM package, but the biggest reason I'm running SFM right now is because it simply frees up more slots for sideboard. With such a great maindeck against most of the aggro lists, I really only have to devote 2 SB slots for E Plague, and possibly a darkblast. Everything else helps against our actual tough matchups, i.e. SnT, miracles, stoneblade, and ANT/High Tide/Storm.

I disagree. The SFM package isn't much better against aggro, and aggro decks are the ones Rock a midranged deck already does pretty well against. Going all in on a piece of equipment is more like flipping a coin. If they have artifact destruction you just spent multiple turns on that 1 card which is often enough to cause you to loose.

Having 2 extra giant creatures in play, or extra removal however will stop tribal decks from turning sideways.

The real strength of GSZ though is ramping into a t2 KOTR or Liliana AND giving options to fight combo through teeg/ooze/Kotr -> Karakas/Bog.

If you were running a token strategy SFM would probably be for the best, but when your creatures are usually 4/5+ you don't need that extra push IMO.

[Zeckk]

I disagree. The SFM package isn't much better against aggro, and aggro decks are the ones Rock a midranged deck already does pretty well against. Going all in on a piece of equipment is more like flipping a coin. If they have artifact destruction you just spent multiple turns on that 1 card which is often enough to cause you to loose.

Having 2 extra giant creatures in play, or extra removal however will stop tribal decks from turning sideways.

The real strength of GSZ though is ramping into a t2 KOTR or Liliana AND giving options to fight combo through teeg/ooze/Kotr -> Karakas/Bog.

If you were running a token strategy SFM would probably be for the best, but when your creatures are usually 4/5+ you don't need that extra push IMO.

I would take a jitte over a KOTR against goblins any day of the week. Same goes for elves, and merfolk. In most of my matches, KOTR only shines against SnT, RUG, and Reanimator due to fetching karakas/wasteland and being outside of bolt range.

[lavafrogg]

I would take a jitte over a KOTR against goblins any day of the week. Same goes for elves, and merfolk. In most of my matches, KOTR only shines against SnT, RUG, and Reanimator due to fetching karakas/wasteland and being outside of bolt range.

Except for the fact that Knight is never dropped from Rock and the debate would be Goyf vs SFM/jitte and Goyf is much better against tribal and RUG. Against goblins you need to play a wall turn 2 not a creature that cannot block because it wants to drop a batterskull or equip a jitte, RUG will also stifle/burn your SFM and ancient grudge your equipment so they can swing in. Your goyf will always block their goyf.