Changed the build a little(thanks to whiley85 and Esper3k):
// Artifacts:
2 Sensei's Divining Top
// Creatures:
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Baleful Strix
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Deathrite Shaman
// Planeswalkers:
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
// Sorceries & Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
// Lands:
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Bayou
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
The deathrites sure are more handy than pernicious deed. Deed sure helps many times, but the mana advantage and damage from deathrite helps more. Of course I moved deed to the sideboard.
Not that Liliana isn't good, but Jace's control fit better in this deck. I saw that after playing a lot with both.
Cabal Therapy over hymn, always.
How about in the SB -3 Plague, +3 Deed? And for the MD, drop the Shackles for a 2nd Jitte (Jitte is totally AMAZING with all the little guys, Jitte stops Mother, its extra lifegain, etc.). Maybe to improve the combo MU, -1 Jace, -1 Needle for +2 Counterbalance? (Move the Needle to the SB?) I mean Counterbalance is obviously really good, and as just a 2-of you shouldn't run into (dead) multiples. Plus it'll free up SB space. CB is also pretty sweet to cascade into.Originally Posted by drfontaine
Thanks mr greenpoe!!
I def think the option with CB is viable for all the reasons you suggested although sometimes it's clonky when you drop it early and since it doesnt affect the current board threats, it can be hard to catch up when you lack the 1mana wrath :/. I think if i were to run it i'd run few copies like perhaps two MD, but right now i prefer CB in SB.
Regarding jitte i played it in main for awhile, thinking it would be another answer to mother etc, although when mother is present she most of the time can prevent combat dmg IE it's hard to get counters on jitte, so in practice it dosnt work as well, also most decks running mother also run jitte on their own, meaning you never really get to land your jitte, and even less likely activate it. Deathrite shaman is better of doing his own work rather than swinging with jitte aswell i figuered. And vs rug/mav gettin active jitte considering their removal is most of the time to slow :/, since they can so easily remove your creature by the time you manage to eq. It's now in SB for games vs goblin/meerfolk! I rather play more EE in main like 2-3 since it can also be dropped for free and animated by tezz same turn for 4 mana for 5/5 haste etc ! Serves as great mother removal etc aswell!
Well I think you can't attack with an 5/5 EE you just dropped in the same turn. Am I wrong? Isn't it still sick?
artifacts dosnt have summ sickness :O, at least thats what i thot )). Anyways its a great way to kill jace. More EE is also strong in miracles mu, in order to kill stoopid angels. Miracles deck which might also be the strongest atm ;)
Creatures do, so if artifact turns into a creature it has summoning sickness =P
EDIT: Sry I wasn't clear, meant that it has summoning sickness if it came to play that turn =) So any artifacts played 1> turn before can attack ^^
Perhaps time to look it up then XD. But with that reasoning it seems i cannot attack with a dimir signet if i animate with tezz that turn, even though it's been in play for a decade no? I mean then it turns a creature and it cannot attack since it gains summoning sicknz the when it gets a creature. That dosnt seem right ).
But perhaps ur right, anwyays if its been in play you can at least animate and attack, so semihaste i guess :/ XD
I'm pretty sure the same problem was with factories for a decade... ^^ couldn't pump itself while blocking when it came into play on your turn. Factory as a land could do that instantly.
Nevertheless the ability of tezz is indeed great since you often animate an artifact you cast one turn before. You usually can't cast Tezz and and artifact that doesn't cost 0 in the same turn.
GREAT anyways was confused, just thot of it when i realized i need more EE in main that it can in fact be cast for 0, IE the given example. Thanks alot for clearing it up!! greatly appreciated!!!
Hm that's true, maybe 2-3 copies of Inquisition or Clique, since they can be good cascades (and EE is a really bad cascade!) which will help in the combo MU too. (or if a 4c build could be stable, then Tidehollow Sculler could work - he's an artifact too)
Has anyone tried Garruk 1.0 in this deck? I've been testing a build with Garruk Wildspeaker as a 2-of and he's been absolutely fantastic. He does a few wonderful things for the deck: (1) his mana-acceleration means that you can cast him, then drop a 2-drop, or a 3-drop if you've got another land or Shaman open; (2) his mana-accel also helps you play out all the cards you draw with this deck; (3) you can cast him, +1, then ultimate next turn - which is a big deal in a deck full of 1/1's, 1/2's and 2/2's as it means that you can untap and frequently swing with 12 or 16 trampling power....and that's just all the things he does with his +1! His -1 ability is very nice as well. In the build I've been testing, I've been running Tarmogoyf because it's either an either clock vs combo and control or its a giant wall vs aggro. I could justify cutting one, since the deck doesn't want to rush out the floodgates obviously, and because the longer the game goes on, the bigger he'll be (this deck has a lot of different cardtypes - Planeswalkers, Sorcerories, artifacts, creatures, instants and land of course - so you can get him to a 6/7 even without your opponent's yard). But I think either 3 or 4 Tarmogoyf (you could add a Thoughtseize, Decay or Vision) is necessary so that with it + Garruk (+1 then ultimate as needed), you actually have a pretty solid clock. Actually, Garruk has been so good I've considered adding a 4th.
4 Shardless Agent
4 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Ancestral Vision
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Bayou
3 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Island
Oh man, that's exactly what I thought a few days ago. Haven't actually tried it yet, though. Good to hear that he works well.
So I've still been doing well with Demars's original version, plus some changes to include Abrupt Decay. I was just thinking of incorporating Deathrite Shaman so glad to see that's pretty much the consensus here. Cutting Deed or at least moving it to the board and trimming a land or two makes sense.
I'm curious why everyone seems to have moved away from Hymn to Tourach? It makes the mana occasionally awkward but that card is a beast for me. Awesome card in general but extra strong in this deck - we have Goyf and now Shaman to benefit, Wasteland to help wreck they're mana if we hit land, and Visions to press the CA further. Plus taking it out seems like it'd make the combo MU worse. Also no one playing Ghastly Demise at all surprises me. i know Decay is Decay but I've liked still having a one-mana removal as there's lots of Maverick and Goblins in my area. The one-of Tiago is something else I was never upset about seeing, and I see that's gone too. And taking out Clique just seems wrong, especially now we're running Shamans and no Deeds - it's a sweet clock which the deck needs, and again, helps combo. Just curious why there has been move away from these cards. Demise or Tiago I could see but no Hymn or Clique just seems bad to me.
Also I love Strix but does it do enough? Seems like we want more high-impact cards. And Therapy is one of my favourite cards ever but I'm not sure this is a Therapy deck, nothing we actively want to sacrifice.
In DeMars' version, since the whole idea is to maximize the card advantage you get from your cascades, I think Hymn is great. I also kept a couple Ghastly Demises when I played the list just to deal with Moms and Lackeys.
I personally like Deed more than Shaman since the list is more controlling and Deed gives you a reset button + gets you Enchantment into the yard for 'goyfs. Cascading into Deathrite also feels very underwhelming when you consider all the other awesome cards you could be cascading into instead.
I think Hymn stresses the manabase a little too much for the MD. It's a fairly incredible (game-winning) card for 2-mana, but you'll get Wasted a lot. I think it belongs in the SB so you can bring it in vs. combo/control. Overall, I think this deck is really well positioned. You've got your combo killers (Force, Clique in the MD, then postboard bring in Hymns and targeted discard), your gravehate (Shaman + whatever you've got in the SB), and vs. control you have MD Planeswalkers, plenty of card advantage, and a million ways to fight enemy Jaces from control (Flash+Cascade both make them not bounce your creatures- then postboard, you have Hymns & discard). Then vs. creature decks, you have Shaman for lifegain, Abrupt Decays to stop tempo decks cold, Baleful Strix as your pseudo-removal, and Deeds postboard as your sweepers (And of course, you've got Clique/Goyf/Agent as blockers when necessary). It's a really powerful deck right now and no matter what the matchup, you've always got a good fighting shot.
Anyone been watching the Invitationals? Looks like Todd Anderson (went 3-1 on Legacy) is rocking a very similar list to DeMars version. He seems to be running Deathrites as well.
Gerry T 4-0ed the legacy portion as well and was playing a nearly identical list.
http://www.starcitygames.com/events/..._vs_joe_b.html
I'm so happy to see this deck doing so well in a big championship. My first deck in legacy, and I'm still buying the goyf, forces and some other cards, but playing on mws and with proxy. It's good to see that this deck can beat the metagame.
He would have been 3-1 if I didnt get cute in sideboarding :P
I saw very little resistance from his deck outside of spot temoval too. Guess i learned my lesson with a trial by fire. Btw im on combo elves. :D
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Yeah I actually think fast combo can be tough for the deck since outside of Force, we don't have much of a way to interact with them until T2 or 3 usually.
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