All B/R update speculation.

[kiblast]

I personally don't miss SotF, but I may be in the minority. SotF, like Show and Tell, continously got stronger as players realized its potential and better cards were printed.

SotF is nowhere near to SnT speaking of raw power. You need 1ggg to discard a creature, get a Squee and gain +1 ca out of it, or 1gggg to beat with 2 Vengevine and a couple of lizards. Snt? Tomb, island, SnT and that's it.

[joemauer]

SotF is nowhere near to SnT speaking of raw power. You need 1ggg to discard a creature, get a Squee and gain +1 ca out of it, or 1gggg to beat with 2 Vengevine and a couple of lizards. Snt? Tomb, island, SnT and that's it.

Perhaps, but which one is banned in Legacy?

[jamis]

In my eyes, SotF nullified all other aggro strategies. If you wanted to play an aggro deck, you played SotF or you were just doing something inferior. S&T, other combo decks are still valid stragies. Omniciense isn't the only combo viable right now, you can also play Tendrils, Reanimator, Dredge, or even Belcher. So while you can argue power level of S&T is more than SotF, the warp on the meta is much less.

[Mr. Safety]

Drain in Legacy would be cool to test out, at least. I feel like people don't evaluate it in context. What are you really Draining into? The god-hand plays would be Jace, Batterskull, etc. You can't really justify bigger spells like Sundering Titan just on the off chance you get a good Drain off.

Any 2-3 mana threats for a discounted cost while leaving your own lands to do other work (Wasteland, Spell Pierce, Brainstorm, Swords to Plowshares, etc.) is good, when you consider it's attached to a counterspell. I'm not saying broken, but fuck-nuts good. A turn three Jace isn't crucial to your plan when you can *settle* for a turn two Tarmogoyf or Stoneforge Mystic for or

Why doesn't Cryptic Command see play in legacy? It's too costly at 4 mana, even when you get a two mode counterspell. Mana Drain is a 2 mana, two-mode counterspell. Easily exploitable and could create situations of absolute BLOWOUTS.

[kiblast]

Perhaps, but which one is banned in Legacy?

That's a pretty poor argument.

In my eyes, SotF nullified all other aggro strategies. If you wanted to play an aggro deck, you played SotF or you were just doing something inferior. S&T, other combo decks are still valid stragies. Omniciense isn't the only combo viable right now, you can also play Tendrils, Reanimator, Dredge, or even Belcher. So while you can argue power level of S&T is more than SotF, the warp on the meta is much less.

This is an interesting approach, but in the meantime Delver.decks appeared, Snapcaster was printed, and Goblin and other tribal decks got Cavern of Souls. Goblin and Combo Elves can regularly set up for turn 3 win. I say let's unban it and let's wait for meta to adapt to it; its impact and related strategies would probably be absorbed, at least partially, by the other archetypes.

[Koby]

Let me tell you the story of a deck I once played.

Highlights:
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Vengevine
4 Survival of the Fittest

With a manabase:
2 Forest
2 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
8 fetchlands

Ya, deck was fun. Split in the finals of a >32 person tournament after losing round 1.

[Vacrix]

Yes Mana Drain would be good. Yes it would create blow outs. But there are more than a few good cards in Legacy that are good and create blow outs. Mana Drain is one of those cards that would be great in the control mirror, namely when it can counter Force, Jace, Batterskull. It would also be good against midrange decks that play high cc spells like Pulse, Deed, +3cc creatures, etc.

However.. Drain would not get played in dominant Tempo decks like RUG. There wouldn't be a point. They cannot abuse the card with such a low curve. Then again, slow control decks like UW Miracles, Blade control, BUG control, will have dirty hot sex with mana drain. But would it make them more Tier 1 than they already are?

The mana you get from Drain would allow you to cast Batterskull, Jace, Entreat, etc. without tapping out. This is definitely good, perhaps even game changing when the thing you cast with Drain is often going to be your win condition. There are still a few things that have to happen before you can blow out an opponent. You need a Mana Drain, a win condition, and a high cc spell on the opponents stack.

In general this card won't be good in the matchups these control decks already win. How does it really help them against combo? A well placed Counterspell is just as good as a Mana Drain here. In most cases too, you'll be hard pressed to justify cantripping into a win condition over another piece of permission just because you have a Mana Drain in hand. Against aggro, their curve is generally too low for Drain to have a consistent game changing impact. I mean even a high cc aggro deck like Goblins is kicking these control decks in the ass because they have Cavern/Vial. When you look at the control mirror though, Drain would just be ok against RUG because if they can land it on a Force or even a Goyf then it might be the key play of the game when you drop a win condition next turn. Still, even in that matchup.. would it really dislodge RUG from its throne? I think not. RUG's curve is just too low. Instead, it would be good against the decks that are trying hard to make a come back, ie. decks like GB Midrange variants that have generally a pretty high curve. These decks help contribute to a healthy format and a well placed Mana Drain will blow them out everytime. "Grave Titan? Pffftttthahaha. Come with me. This is the evolution of man. You stand here."

The slow control mirrors ie. Blade, Miracles and BUG would probably revolve around who makes the most of his Mana Drains... which means if you want to play a good, slow control deck, you best get yourself a very, very expensive card. Perhaps if they reprint it in The Vault sets or something then unbanning Drain would be a more reasonable choice.

[feline]

Unban mind twist it's probably the weakest card on the list, people dumping their hand for a buncha mana / ritual like effects to mind twist an opponent early is not as powerful as people dumping their hand for a buncha mana / ritual like effects to goblin charbelcher, empty the warrens, ad nauseum, tendrils, etc.

In the late game against a deck that keeps many cards in hand, you're likely against a control deck, so when you top deck the mind twist, it'll likely be countered anyway.

If they unbanned it, I see it likely doing similar things that Land Tax did being unbanned, the price shooting up, then slowly dwindling back down as it will not be in the majority of decks anyway. Land tax was a "fun" unban, not an "o crap" unban, and I think mind twist would be more of a "fun" unban, not something that would cause a bunch of problems.

[Mr. Safety]

Yes Mana Drain would be good. Yes it would create blow outs. But there are more than a few good cards in Legacy that are good and create blow outs. Mana Drain is one of those cards that would be great in the control mirror, namely when it can counter Force, Jace, Batterskull. It would also be good against midrange decks that play high cc spells like Pulse, Deed, +3cc creatures, etc.

However.. Drain would not get played in dominant Tempo decks like RUG. There wouldn't be a point. They cannot abuse the card with such a low curve. Then again, slow control decks like UW Miracles, Blade control, BUG control, will have dirty hot sex with mana drain. But would it make them more Tier 1 than they already are?

The mana you get from Drain would allow you to cast Batterskull, Jace, Entreat, etc. without tapping out. This is definitely good, perhaps even game changing when the thing you cast with Drain is often going to be your win condition. There are still a few things that have to happen before you can blow out an opponent. You need a Mana Drain, a win condition, and a high cc spell on the opponents stack.

In general this card won't be good in the matchups these control decks already win. How does it really help them against combo? A well placed Counterspell is just as good as a Mana Drain here. In most cases too, you'll be hard pressed to justify cantripping into a win condition over another piece of permission just because you have a Mana Drain in hand. Against aggro, their curve is generally too low for Drain to have a consistent game changing impact. I mean even a high cc aggro deck like Goblins is kicking these control decks in the ass because they have Cavern/Vial. When you look at the control mirror though, Drain would just be ok against RUG because if they can land it on a Force or even a Goyf then it might be the key play of the game when you drop a win condition next turn. Still, even in that matchup.. would it really dislodge RUG from its throne? I think not. RUG's curve is just too low. Instead, it would be good against the decks that are trying hard to make a come back, ie. decks like GB Midrange variants that have generally a pretty high curve. These decks help contribute to a healthy format and a well placed Mana Drain will blow them out everytime. "Grave Titan? Pffftttthahaha. Come with me. This is the evolution of man. You stand here."

The slow control mirrors ie. Blade, Miracles and BUG would probably revolve around who makes the most of his Mana Drains... which means if you want to play a good, slow control deck, you best get yourself a very, very expensive card. Perhaps if they reprint it in The Vault sets or something then unbanning Drain would be a more reasonable choice.

Some great points in there, and I 'lol-ed' at the dirty hot sex comment. I agree with you whole-heartedly about the hard control decks loving it, and it making them better. I was especially thinking BUG/Mind Harvester/Intuition-Loam decks, which you alluded to. I think the best use of it in a control deck would be to use the spare mana to blow up the board with Deed. Mana Drain isn't a tempo-denial early play, that's what Daze, Spell Pierce, and Force do best. Mana Drain is the counterspell that helps you effortlessly establish inevitability by countering the key mid-game spell while setting up a cheap end-game yourself.

The other, off-beat consideration I have is this: would Karn Liberated be viable with 3 free mana off a Mana Drain? I can only dream...

I would also love to see Mana Drain in a Thopter-Sword deck. That's a deck where spare mana is almost NEVER wasted.

[dontbiteitholmes]

SotF is nowhere near to SnT speaking of raw power. You need 1ggg to discard a creature, get a Squee and gain +1 ca out of it, or 1gggg to beat with 2 Vengevine and a couple of lizards. Snt? Tomb, island, SnT and that's it.

You forgot something to SNT into play...

The biggest difference, Survival is a one card combo machine (yes you need a creature but you are always going to have it in any survival deck). No matter what the game state is you rip Survival and it's off to the races with Vines. Personally I feel the card is fine w/o Vine and that Vine should have been banned instead, but what can you do? That wasn't a decision that was rushed to. Lots of people, myself included said the format should have more time to adapt when SurvivalVine first started dominating. It was given time to play out a little and things just got worse. It was plain to see Survival warped things a little too much with Vengevine in the format.

The main problem with SNT is you are all in on the combo. If you can't manage to get off the combo or deal with the many things which can neuter the combo (many of which the opponent can drop for free off SNT) you lose, everytime. Plenty of SurvivalVine matches ended without a resolved SotF. Sure it was plan A but the plan B of just beating face was often enough and discard outlets made it realistic to get Vines for free early in the game even without Survival.

You can't really compare them "In raw power" like you are trying to. That's a pretty arbitrary standard.

[Dark Ritual]

Hmm ... I'm inclined to say Lion's Eye Diamond should be banned, if only because almost every combo deck benefits from having it. However, I strongly believe its cousin, Lotus Petal, should be hit before it, as that enables all the turn 1 wins any combo deck can potentially muscle out. Spirit Guides are somewhat of a consideration, but to be fair Petal adds one mana of any color to your mana pool, ups storm count for free, and has a greater presence that both SGs and LEDs outside of Dredge.

As for unbans . . . not really sure.

Because show and tell benefits from LED oh wait...

As for banning lotus petal, are you trolling? That card doesn't enable all the turn 1 wins in legacy or turn 0's for that matter in the form of 5 spirit guides, protean hulk/summoner's pact, through the breach. Also, storm combo decks haven't been doing well recently in the overall metagame especially when countertop miracles is a big thing in legacy right now.

Unbanning mana drain would probably end up being bad. I would hate playing the drain mirror and my wallet would implode if mana drain was unbanned, as drain playsets would probably cost upwards of $1200. Right now the optimal drain control shell doesn't exist however if drain was unbanned I'm positive someone could and would break the card in some new archetype.

I wouldn't care if survival was unbanned. However I doubt wizards will unban survival in the near future.

[joemauer]

That's a pretty poor argument.

It wasn't so much an argument, but rather me trying to nudge you to think for yourself.

If one of these are banned which one of these has more raw power?

Survival of the Fittest is a one card combo machine with multiple ways of winning once it enters play. I think dontbiteitholmes summed up pretty good as to other reasons it has more "raw power" than Show and Tell.

When I came back into Legacy(and magic), around the time Ravinca was coming out, I was a little surprised Survival of the Fittest was unbanned while cards of similar power level(or less power level even) were on the banned list. Now Show and Tell is the one keeping me baffled for the same reason.

[mini1337s]

When I came back into Legacy(and magic), around the time Ravinca was coming out, I was a little surprised Survival of the Fittest was unbanned while cards of similar power level(or less power level even) were on the banned list. Now Show and Tell is the one keeping me baffled for the same reason.

Show and Tell is fragile in the sense that you only get one shot. My main issue with the card is that it's one of those things that "feels bad man" when you have a counterspell, and they just happen to have the backup too. It feels like a cheap way to win in those cases.
The meta is changing though. Karakas, Venser, etc. It should be kept in check for the most part now, though I'm a tad afraid of SnT -> Omniscience -> Enter the Infinite. Yes yes yes, I get that it's a 3 card combo... it will just feel really bad when they get there :P

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Because show and tell benefits from LED oh wait...

As for banning lotus petal, are you trolling? That card doesn't enable all the turn 1 wins in legacy or turn 0's for that matter in the form of 5 spirit guides, protean hulk/summoner's pact, through the breach. Also, storm combo decks haven't been doing well recently in the overall metagame especially when countertop miracles is a big thing in legacy right now.

Unbanning mana drain would probably end up being bad. I would hate playing the drain mirror and my wallet would implode if mana drain was unbanned, as drain playsets would probably cost upwards of $1200. Right now the optimal drain control shell doesn't exist however if drain was unbanned I'm positive someone could and would break the card in some new archetype.

I wouldn't care if survival was unbanned. However I doubt wizards will unban survival in the near future.

1. True. Though I did say "almost every" not just "every". Decks in particular that benefit from LED include decks that run Infernal Tutor or Burning Wish that do not require other cards in hand to go off ... and in my (admittedly limited) experience, that happens to be Storm-based decks or the random Past In Flames Storm or Bomberman port (that one I'm guilty of).

2. Not trolling, though perhaps I could have chosen a different terminology to express the concept of a turn 1 win ... perhaps a win that is sealed by turn 1 but doesn't actually happen until turn 2 or turn 3 (i.e. Omniscience into Emrakul, Empty the Warrens with Storm Count 4 to 5).

EDIT: Due to my limited experience with the Legacy format, I will concede that LED and Petal are not banworthy at this point in time.

[joemauer]

Show and Tell is fragile in the sense that you only get one shot. My main issue with the card is that it's one of those things that "feels bad man" when you have a counterspell, and they just happen to have the backup too. It feels like a cheap way to win in those cases.
The meta is changing though. Karakas, Venser, etc. It should be kept in check for the most part now, though I'm a tad afraid of SnT -> Omniscience -> Enter the Infinite. Yes yes yes, I get that it's a 3 card combo... it will just feel really bad when they get there :P

My last post was somewhat misleading. I don't feel as if Show and Tell is banworthy at the moment. I do feel as if Show and Tell becoming banned is inevitable though.

I think there are some cards that are as strong as Show and Tell or even weaker. I feel as if the following cards could safely be taken off the Legacy banned list:

Mindtwist: This one seems obvious to everyone except WotC. If you are living the dream of double Dark Ritual into Mindtwist then you are only up by one card. Wouldn't you rather just win the game with double Dark Ritual into Ad Nauseum anyway?

Earthcraft: This one is a combo card so it's comparison to Show and Tell is somewhat easy. Show and Tell is stronger than this card in my opinion. This card costs five mana total(Nest+Earthcraft) to combo out where as Show and Tell is three total. Both are effectively two card combos but Show and Tell only needs to resolve one card not two. Resolving Show and Tell is more often than not a better finisher then getting a bunch of squirrels into play. Finally, Show and Tell has awesome(can be pitched to Force of Will).

Land Tax: I believe this card is too situational to abuse in the current Legacy metagame. Also, being able to only get basics is tough to abuse with the current mana bases that most decks have. Finally, Life the Loam is pretty much better than Land Tax in almost every regard.

Worldgorger Dragon: This is another silly one to keep banned. Is the fear of someone causing an autodraw that scary? Wouldn't you rather just win with a good Reanimation target like Grisslebrand?

Tinker: This is the most controversial one so I won't waste my time explaining why I feel this card is on the same level as Show and Tell.

[Lord Seth]

...Land Tax is unbanned.

[joemauer]

...Land Tax is unbanned.

Oh. I didn't notice.

[Julian23]

Nobody really did.

[aaronm678]

My last post was somewhat misleading. I don't feel as if Show and Tell is banworthy at the moment. I do feel as if Show and Tell becoming banned is inevitable though.

I think there are some cards that are as strong as Show and Tell or even weaker. I feel as if the following cards could safely be taken off the Legacy banned list:

Mindtwist: This one seems obvious to everyone except WotC. If you are living the dream of double Dark Ritual into Mindtwist then you are only up by one card. Wouldn't you rather just win the game with double Dark Ritual into Ad Nauseum anyway?

Earthcraft: This one is a combo card so it's comparison to Show and Tell is somewhat easy. Show and Tell is stronger than this card in my opinion. This card costs five mana total(Nest+Earthcraft) to combo out where as Show and Tell is three total. Both are effectively two card combos but Show and Tell only needs to resolve one card not two. Resolving Show and Tell is more often than not a better finisher then getting a bunch of squirrels into play. Finally, Show and Tell has awesome(can be pitched to Force of Will).

Land Tax: I believe this card is too situational to abuse in the current Legacy metagame. Also, being able to only get basics is tough to abuse with the current mana bases that most decks have. Finally, Life the Loam is pretty much better than Land Tax in almost every regard.

Worldgorger Dragon: This is another silly one to keep banned. Is the fear of someone causing an autodraw that scary? Wouldn't you rather just win with a good Reanimation target like Grisslebrand?

Tinker: This is the most controversial one so I won't waste my time explaining why I feel this card is on the same level as Show and Tell.

For someone who obviously doesn't pay attention to the format at all, you have some pretty bold unbannigs.

I'm sure you're just trolling...but tinker speeds up FoW combo by a full turn, and then allows tinker toolboxes. There is no way tinker is safe for any format as a 4x, the card is just ridiculously powerful.

[bruizar]

@Tinker: Main offenders will be Sundering Titan, Spine of Ish-Sah, Myr Battlesphere, Possessed Portal, Platinum Emporium, Steel Hellkite