[Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

[Water_Wizard]

@ phazonmaunt - Good analysis - I especially liked your bottom two sections.

@ catmint - very well said! It seems like you have a lot of experience with this deck and I appreciate you sharing it!

Two other thoughts for possible additions.

The first is Teferi's Response. This card used to see some play back with Landstill was the #1 deck. It may be too narrow now. However, it seems like it would rock certain decks, especially a deck that runs both Wasteland and Rishidan Port (aka Goblins). Destroys their Port, protects your land, and draws you two cards = not bad.

The second is Volrath's Stronghold. As mentioned above, Stronghold is particularly strong with Baleful Strix.

[phazonmutant]

Catmint - I haven't played the Goblins matchup, but I can see how it would be hard. A 100-man tournament in Europe was won by BUG tempo and had 3 other BUG decks in the top 8. All but one had 3+ Engineered Plagues in the board.

So...what about the European metagame makes EPlague a necessity? Obviously it's good against Goblins, is that a bad enough matchup that we need 3? It seems mediocre against Fish, but ok against white creature decks (Maverick, D&T, maybe Deadguy). The question: is Deed bad enough against those decks (or with our own creatures) that EPlague is correct?
Deed is more versatile in that it's good against Miracles, Affinity, and manlands, but worse in that it's slower, vulnerable to Needle/Revoker/Stifle, and 2 colors.

[catmint]

Yes I saw it. Made me think about testing it. It is a bit narrow, since it takes a board control slot which is useless against RUG, but it hits 8+ creatures out of Maverick (Can imagine that hierarchs come out against BUG) so maybe it is better than I thought there. Could also be that this was a group expecting tons of elves.

I don't think the goblin matchup is too hard honestly. We attack their hand, their board/vials & play bigger creatures & acceleration. The game is pretty simple actually: Kill Vial, lords, Lackey - discard/counter Matron/Ringleader. Goblins is still hard and you have to fight and play well against an experienced pilot, but I rather play Goblins than Maverick.

[Water_Wizard]

Problem with Deed vs. Goblins is that X needs to get too high. A lot of their deck is CC=>3. Once you play Deed turn 3, then you have to hit your 4th land drop (assuming you hit your first 3), and then you have to blow it. I played BUG vs. Goblins with Deed, and the problem with Goblins is that their creature's converted mana costs are too high for Deed to be effective.
Goblins can go fast or slow. They can drop a Warchief, give all their guys haste, and wipe you out in a turn or two, or then can hold back, playing 1-2 threats at a time and making you inefficiently use your sweepers.
Plague is a great answer, because it is permanent, and unless they are playing Krosan Grip (which a lot of the American lists are), they are dead to it. Even though Goblins have high CMC, they usually have small bodies, so 1 E. Plague stops 50%+ of their creatures and 2 = GG.
It is more difficult to counter goblins, especially with Cavern of Souls.
Goblins plays out differently than Elves or Affinity, which essentially attempt to dump their hand as quickly as possible. Against Elves or Affinity a Deed for 1 (or even 0 vs. Affinity) can do a lot of damage. Goblins can go fast or slow and can be explosive with EOT Vial and hasted Piledrivers. Literally, an empty board can become Goblin Warchief (end of turn Aether Vial) to Mogg War Marshall, Piledriver, GG.
As catmint mentioned, discard, especially Hymn, is good vs. Goblins because they will hold larger creatures in hand. IoK is okay, but will not hit Ringleader or Seige-Gang Commander. Thoughtseize is okay, but the loss of two life can hurt.

[Koplinchen]

I am not sure if this is the right thread but we were working on a deck that Caleb brought up.

We wanted to play Shardless Agent. You can do that with 1) suspend 2) equipment 3) Cabal Therapy.

I tried the first two combined in bant deck but it was not very stable.

Then we changed Caleb deck from one of the SCG into:

3 Pernicious Deed
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Coiling Oracle
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Island
4 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Baleful Strix
1 Grave Titan/Cons. Sphinx
3 Shardless Agent
3 Force of Will
1 Batterskull
1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Pernicious Deed
SB: 2 Counterbalance
SB: 1 Nether Void (a lot of combo here in Prague)
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 2 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Liliana of the Veil

It is a great fun to play this deck. It is very stable and many cards are pure CA. Therapy+Jace+Deed make a great deck.

Against "fair" deck you are near unstoppable. Maverick is almost no fun to play against, Rug and merfolks are more challenging, but you are the boss here.
Against "unfair" you have Cabal Therapy (you know what your frinds are up to, dont you?), fow, possibly ooze and a lot in SB. I played against ANT a lot and it is pretty close - good news for this kind of deck.

If you have any questions or comments feel free to comment.

[phazonmutant]

I love me some Shardless Agent, but I'm nervous about playing against thresh and combo with a bunch of multicolored 3-drops and no Pierces. But if you've been having good results, it seems worth testing.

How has Veteran Explorer been working out for you? It seems like he's not very good right now because almost every deck plays a bunch of basic lands and can benefit from them about as much as you can. How has the Miracles matchup been?

[Water_Wizard]

I like your deck and I like your idea. Thank you for sharing. It may be more appropriate to post in the Nic Fit forum, as the deck uses Cabal Therapy and Veteran Explorer. http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...enith-Control)

There is also a thread for Shardless Agent decks. http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...s-quot-Control

If your deck is unique, you may want to start your own thread, probably in New and Developmental.

[phazonmutant]

For what it's worth, there's a thread in New and Dev that looks very similar. It looks like it's trying to get off the ground, but it's pretty sweet.

[mike1987]

I changed my bug control to a more midrange sorta deck due to time issues and found it quite fun to play with.

22 Lands
3 Trops
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
3 Wasteland
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest

11 Creatures
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Snapcaster mage
2 Vendilion Clique

2 Artifacts
2 Sensei's Divining Top

Instants/Sorceries
3 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt decay
2 IOK
2 Thoughtseize
2 Spell pierce
1 Counterspell
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Diabolic edict

5 Planeswalkers
3 Jace, TMS
2 Liliana of the veil

The SDT really smooths the card drawing quite a bit, especially if the games go long. Overall I am quite happy with the deck, it's a blast

[Koplinchen]

I love me some Shardless Agent, but I'm nervous about playing against thresh and combo with a bunch of multicolored 3-drops and no Pierces. But if you've been having good results, it seems worth testing.

How has Veteran Explorer been working out for you? It seems like he's not very good right now because almost every deck plays a bunch of basic lands and can benefit from them about as much as you can. How has the Miracles matchup been?

Thanks for the reply. Very challenging was rug since you really want to see both - Explorer and Therapy. So we added Abrupt Decay. That card is 1) anticounterbalance 2) antiRUG.

As we all know Veteran Explorer is usullay a bit weak against Jace decks. That's why Pulses, Clique in the side. I played Miracles twice and it is pretty tough. Jace and Top are the biggest enemies. Volrath's Stronghold is very good here. Miracles have very hard times against resolved Jace. Jitte is also good since it allows you not ot overextend.

Combo match is very interesting and you must play well. Last Thursday I mulled into 4 - 2lands, thereapy, Ooze. Started with cabal on Infernal Tutor, discarding one and stopping him form killing me NOW. Then I drew Baleful Strix - Therapy again. Then I played Ooze stopping his Past in Flames. ...
Perfect is TOP+Fow or after side TOP+Flusterstorm.

[catmint]

I am a bit worried about the spell ghastly demise. With deathrite beeing so pupolar it sucks not be able to take him out early except with decay. He also pushes more dark confidant and baleful strix in the meta.

To replace the 1cmc slot dismember is an option but the life loss hurts too much I think. Disfigure takes out mystic, delver, shaman, mavericks small stuff and is at least a combat trick for bigger creatures. Disfigure will be painful against ooze, knight & Goyf, but Decay, Liliana & sideboard got to take care of that. I figure its the best option atm.

[Kyle]

I changed my bug control to a more midrange sorta deck due to time issues and found it quite fun to play with.

Hey Mike - fun list, I've been also really enjoying the Goyf + Shaman version lately (though I'm particularly partial to the Creatureless version).

Have you considered Sylvan Library instead of Sensei's Divining Top? It's just way too good.

I also like the 2 Snapcaster, 2 Clique split - I think it's the way to go in this version. Also, I think 4 Abrupt Decays is so necessary, as it takes out 75% of Legacy threats.

Did y'all see the "Creatureless" version that took Top4 at SCG Baltimore this past weekend? It's running DrShamans. http://www.starcitygames.com/events/...baltimore.html. There were actually 4 BUG varieties in the Top8. Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman FTW I guess...

Edit:

@catmint: I've seen some people on Cockatrice lately jamming Disfigure, and it's pretty good, though I'm having trouble giving up my Ghastly Demises... it's so good against everything non-Deathrite...

[jamis]

You make a good point about the CA engines taking up a lot of space. I still like Mox Diamond a lot. After watching round 5 of SCG providence, it really convinced me how powerful it can be. I'll work on the list some more. I'll let you guys know what I come up with.

So I refined it a bit. Think there's still room for improvement, though. This is what I think I'm going with

4 Jace TMS
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Worm Harvest

4 Brainstorm

2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
3 Force of Will

1 Darkblast
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Maelstom Pulse

3 Life from the Loam
4 Mox Diamond

1 Academy Ruins
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Creeping Tarpits
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta

After playing the list a few times, I felt both E.E. and Lili needed to be bumped up to 3. I'm also thinking about replacing a Spell Pierce with another Counterspell. There's been a few times where Spell Pierce has sucked either because I drew it too late in the game, or my opponent just played creature after creature while I was holding up spell piece mana. Counterspell on the other hand, has been solid pretty much every time I've seen it. Though, I still haven't' tested against any combo, so maybe a 2/2 split is right.

I also just threw worm harvest in. I haven't seen it in any of the games I've tested so far. It seems good in theory in that it can throw some chumps out while I try to stabilize, and provide a quick win once the loam engine is going.

[catmint]

Yes the 4 BUG decks in the top 8 were interesting.
The community seems to give the delver plan more potential, which has now with deathrite, more lands and a jace sideobard it's own identity and is not just Canadian replacing some spells. To me the threats are too fragilfe for a tempo deck.

The 2 BUG control decks are also interesting:

Jarvis Wu with a confidant plan running daze to support it.

Brian with EE instead of dead supporting deahtrite and 5 cmc4 walkers in a 24 land build running 6 colorless lands and Goyfs in the board.

You already know my opinion about conficant as a primary gameplan http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post687797
...altough I am testing 2 in the board atm to bring it in against control & removal light decks and in this specific matchups he has been good.

Concerning Brians version:
More lands and more walkers instead of some creatures is also something I was thinking about, but not to the extend of cutting all the goyfs. Also fell in love with Baleful Strix. :) -> E. Explosives is not that necessary with Decay I feel.
6 colorless lands and 1 creeping tar pit seems very risky even in a loam build. If I have to deal with an early delver/goyf/lackey/mother I don't want to be forced to loam first to make sure I can cast my decay.

[jeanbathez]

In the last weeks i tested a lot of Versions Bug tempo with Stifle and Nimble and so on, with Confis and and ..... Atm i got the feeling that Bug midrange ist the best version, for my meta (a lot of combo) and my playstyle.
What i realized is, Deathride is so good (nothing new), and that Deathride into turn 3 Jace, won me a few games :-)
So i ended in a midrange versions similar to catmint, and i also wanted to test Strix ;-)

@catmint : how does your list looks like and how did the strix perform ?

[catmint]

One comment to Mox Diamond. It is of course more stable and explosive than deathrite in terms of acceleration, but deathrite does so much more and is a good topdeck. compared to mox diamond which is usually a horrible one. Calling a "mana-elf" a good topdeck is also rather rare.

Baleful Strix performed as expected (good), but I still play with 3 snapcaster, 2 Strix. Snapcaster is obv. better on the offensive whereas strix is good defensively, but snapcaster into Pierce, discard, decay or brainstorm is more versatile. What I like most about strix is its premium ability to defend walkers while providing card advantage. My favourite early turn include discard, deathrite, strix into walker.

I put the cliques in the board, because I wanted to run liliana maindeck and the curve was getting a bit too high.
The Goyfs are there for offensive & defensive purposes, but often come out to make space for cliques or confidants.

My current list:

[cards]

//lands: maybe -1 trop + 1 Bay, -1 misty +1 verdant would be correct. Haven’t changed the manabase although changins spells, so might not be optimal
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
3 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant catacombs

//creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful strix
3 Snapcaster Mage

//walkers
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

// Utility – debating in bringin a singleton Ponder/Library – but tough to make space.
4 Brainstorm

//Disruption
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Disfigure
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will

//Sideboard
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Dark Confidant
1 Life from the Loam
2 Counterspell
[cards]

Played around with the sideboard a lot. Deed got less and less important to win, but is still a good too in creature matchups and against UW.
Edict is for Mongoose and not a bad spell against most creature decks.
Surgicals might cutable since deathrite help with dredge more than I thought.
Counterspell is solid versus combo cause of deathrite and I figure pretty good against UW. In UW they should not be able to beat us with a mystic or some random 4/4 angels due to our removal. So it is basically all about jace and clique since she enables and kills jaces. Our discard is “bad” vs. SD.top and counterspell just hits everything, but is not a maindeckable card if you rund so many “tap-out” cards.

[jeanbathez]

@ catmint : Thanks, your list is very smiliar to mine, what a suprise

I' am still not sold on the liliana maindeck, atm i prefer clique or cantrips...perhaps its just me...

1 mana removal, i still don't like it, but must admit it must be played : i remember a game two weeks ago against goblins in game 2 he was on the play, i looked at my hand (was ok) with 1 deathide and thought this hand looses to turn1 lackey turn 2 incinerator, and he had it and ran me over...

In some games i also miss something like ponder or top or sylvan......

About sideboarding : i also realized that i often borad out some or all tarmoygoyf, its strange but in some matchups he was the weakest slot.

[jarvisyu]

Yes the 4 BUG decks in the top 8 were interesting.
The community seems to give the delver plan more potential, which has now with deathrite, more lands and a jace sideobard it's own identity and is not just Canadian replacing some spells. To me the threats are too fragilfe for a tempo deck.

The 2 BUG control decks are also interesting:

Jarvis Wu with a confidant plan running daze to support it.

Brian with EE instead of dead supporting deahtrite and 5 cmc4 walkers in a 24 land build running 6 colorless lands and Goyfs in the board.

You already know my opinion about conficant as a primary gameplan http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post687797
...altough I am testing 2 in the board atm to bring it in against control & removal light decks and in this specific matchups he has been good.

Concerning Brians version:
More lands and more walkers instead of some creatures is also something I was thinking about, but not to the extend of cutting all the goyfs. Also fell in love with Baleful Strix. :) -> E. Explosives is not that necessary with Decay I feel.
6 colorless lands and 1 creeping tar pit seems very risky even in a loam build. If I have to deal with an early delver/goyf/lackey/mother I don't want to be forced to loam first to make sure I can cast my decay.

I wouldn't really qualify my deck as a 'Team America' deck, since that's mostly associated with Stifle / (4 Hymn to Tourach) and 4 Force of Will.

A better analogy is probably drawn to Modern 'Jund' with some sweet blue spells that you don't have access to.

In addition, I didn't really expect a lot of combo on Sunday, so I moved Force of Will to the board, since it's not very good in a lot of match-ups.

Also, I wasn't actually boarding 3 EE, that's a typo (they are actually Engineered Plague).

[catmint]

Sure Jarvis - not Team America at all.

The thing is that TCdecks http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/for...?format=Legacy collects decklists form all around the world and mtgthesource makes their "deck to beat" selection based on this information. When snapcaster was printed TCdecks started to mix up tempo and control strategies and is since then labeling any BUG deck (even with 0 creatures) as 'Team America'. On thesource there are 2 main BUG threads (tempo & midrange/control) and to setup the threads more like TCdecks mods labeled the threads this way.

More to the point: How do you feel about confident? Did you experience any of the problem I see with him?

Edit:

I remember a game two weeks ago against goblins in game 2 he was on the play, i looked at my hand (was ok) with 1 deathide and thought this hand looses to turn1 lackey turn 2 incinerator, and he had it and ran me over...

In some games i also miss something like ponder or top or sylvan......

About sideboarding : i also realized that i often borad out some or all tarmoygoyf, its strange but in some matchups he was the weakest slot.

I guess it was a scingscour that screwed you because deathrite does not die to incinerator with only lackey on board. Deathrite counts as a conditional "removal" for lackey, but there is also mother. :)

Boarding out goyf is totally reasonable imo. Altough he sometimes closes out g1 you still board him out, since against combo or UW, he is nowhere near as important as against aggressive strategies. Against combo his 3/4 body is nice but i rather have confidant/clique there.

[jarvisyu]

Sure Jarvis - not Team America at all.

The thing is that TCdecks http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/for...?format=Legacy collects decklists form all around the world and mtgthesource makes their "deck to beat" selection based on this information. When snapcaster was printed TCdecks started to mix up tempo and control strategies and is since then labeling any BUG deck (even with 0 creatures) as 'Team America'. On thesource there are 2 main BUG threads (tempo & midrange/control) and to setup the threads more like TCdecks mods labeled the threads this way.

More to the point: How do you feel about confident? Did you experience any of the problem I see with him?

I understand your point about lifeloss, but analogously: lifeloss in Modern Jund was an issue until Deathrite Shaman came about (exacerbated by the fact you play a bunch of shocklands). I don't really like Strix since it's a really low impact card besides cycling for 1 card and having deathtouch.

Also Dark Confidant attacks for 2! Attacking for 2 is 'tech'. :)