Life loss is not my main concern altough you putting FoW in the side might not be a coincidence.Originally Posted by jarvisyu
check out my post in the link: it is not guaranteed value compared to strix, Stoneforge, Snapcaster causing tempo loss if killed.
Currently playing: Elves
Well, bringing up Stoneforge Mystic in the context of BUG is kind of ???Life loss is not my main concern altough you putting FoW in the side might not be a coincidence.
Snapcaster Mage isn't really good in a field of Deathrite Shamans unless if you clear the Deathrite Shaman out first, and also Snapcaster Mage isn't good on turn 2 most of the time.
I brought up this other 2 drops because all of them are utility creatures providing card advantage. It is about the concept of getting value out of a card and not playing stoneforge in BUG.
Currently playing: Elves
Yeah, I get that. Besides Baleful Strix which is 'value', the alternatives aren't guaranteed either. You can also clear the way for Confidant by looking at their hand on turn 1 with a discard spell, seeing if the way is clear, and if it's not, casting another discard spell on turn 2 etc to try to clear the way for it.
Of course you are not guaranteed. (I used "" to signal that in my inital post concerning this topic). But not getting a 2 for 1 with strix or snapcaster is rare and confidant dying is very common. Cutting snapcaster because of deathrite is an overreaction in my opinon:
1) Snapcaster is still supreme against the rest of the field
2) also against deathrite it gets value very likely: They might use it for mana or whatever and since they want to activate deathrite eot whenever they get the chance you can cast snapcaster in response. Sure snapcaster is weaker against BG, but I would not side it out.
So your argument is discard to protect confidant. True, discards supports him, but why do you think was he never played in Esperblade? It is a very similar deck with better lifegain. To me discard alone does not make him great. There is Spell Pierce, brainstorm, SD.top, snapcaster, multiple removal spells or beeing forced to take something else over the removal.
my answer (see below) He is bad against RUG and snapcaster & strix are very good against RUG.
But I am open ... if you can outline why he is nuts as a primary gamplan I am willing to give it a shot again.
Confidant is always tempting but I've never played it in BUG since ages ago.
The problem I have with this specific 2 drop as opposed to other card advantage "2 drops" like baleful strix or snapcaster mage is that with tiago and strix we are "guaranteed" to get additional value once you cast them. If confidant is killed you lost tempo - if he survives for 2+ turns you got above average value. Confidant is therefore a bit more swingy.
Also confidant is just outright bad versus aggressive decks (RUG). Sure there will be the games where you have a high life total and he celebrate a big win vs. RUG, but usually you are hit hard and confidants life loss is a liability or he is removed immediately providing a tempo loss compared to something else you could have done for 2 mana.
Against miracles/UW, confidant is much better because it is a must kill - however again compared to tiago/strix you do not have a guaranteed 2 for 1.
Against Maverick/combo is where confidant is at his best imo, since it is most likely to live.
If I would include confidant I would put 2-3 in my 75. Problem is, cards I would want to cut are 3rd snapcaster mage, 3rd Jace, 4th FoW… all blue cards making the blue count an issue (19 blue cards in my current build).
Currently playing: Elves
If you expect a lot of RUG, I agree, Strix is better. I think overall that RUG is on the decline.Of course you are not guaranteed. (I used "" to signal that in my inital post concerning this topic). But not getting a 2 for 1 with strix or snapcaster is rare and confidant dying is very common. Cutting snapcaster because of deathrite is an overreaction in my opinon:
1) Snapcaster is still supreme against the rest of the field
2) also against deathrite it gets value very likely: They might use it for mana or whatever and since they want to activate deathrite eot whenever they get the chance you can cast snapcaster in response. Sure snapcaster is weaker against BG, but I would not side it out.
So your argument is discard to protect confidant. True, discards supports him, but why do you think was he never played in Esperblade? It is a very similar deck with better lifegain. To me discard alone does not make him great. There is Spell Pierce, brainstorm, SD.top, snapcaster, multiple removal spells or beeing forced to take something else over the removal.
my answer (see below) He is bad against RUG and snapcaster & strix are very good against RUG.
But I am open ... if you can outline why he is nuts as a primary gamplan I am willing to give it a shot again.
Second, I think this is also a huge function of playstyle. Confidant fits my playstyle a lot better (trade 1 for 1 a lot and reload, as well as synergizing very well with Liliana of the Veil). I can understand not wanting to play Confidant (and in fact the other people in that top 8 certainly did well without it too).
Some builds of Esper Stoneforge did play Confidant at some point (including myself), but that was pre-Lingering Souls.
You are right of course, it was Stingscourger (my fault, posting at work in a hurry isn't the best ;-) )
My 2 cent about Dark Confidant : i think it really depends on the field you are expecting and personal playstyle.
My first thoughts about Confi would be in a tempo list, and i tested him there and in some matchups he was beautiful as he is sometimes...
@jarvisyu : Interesting list without Force of Will - would be very interested in some insight on that and how it worked out (i think with making T8 fine) , if possible ...;-)
Wasn't expecting a lot of combo, just a lot of grindy matchups.
my matchups were:
r1: UW miracles
r2: Tide
r3: Affinity (actually did board in Force here)
r4: UW miracles
r5: Ali Aintrazi's BUG
r6: RUG
r7: Shaheen with Esper Stoneforge
r8: Dredge
r9: Intentional Draw.
Of these, I only really want Force versus Tide and Affinity, and _maybe_ miracles (although i generally didn't board it in because I felt pretty good at grinding them out).
Makes sense... no religous call on confidant.
The meta in SCG (and MWS) tends to adapt much fast than in my locals.
Your pairings reflect what you expect. Confidant was only bad in 2 matchups so boarding it out instead of bringin it is to prefer.
I like my forces vs. Miracles and board them usually out against Stoneblade. Against Miracleblade I play 2 FoW
... Against MIracles it is even more about some big spells - trading cards before a "jace war" matters less, since our board presence can be wiped out miraculously easy.
Currently playing: Elves
Agreed with this. Tested some more against Miracles, it feels pretty much like they're a Jace and Entreat combo deck. It really doesn't matter how many cards you throw away in the Jace fight, because if you get one to stick, it's almost impossible to lose. On the BUG side, Creeping Tar Pit and Deathrite Shaman sometimes allow us to just ignore Jace if you can't kill him and just go for the dome, but knowing when that's correct has been tough for me.I like my forces vs. Miracles and board them usually out against Stoneblade. Against Miracleblade I play 2 FoW
... Against MIracles it is even more about some big spells - trading cards before a "jace war" matters less, since our board presence can be wiped out miraculously easy.
We can beat the card Stoneforge Mystic with discard, unlike SDT-reliant Miracles. (random thought: Abrupt Decaying Top in response to a fetch is pretty sweet.)
On the 2-drop war:
I haven't tested with Confidant because my local meta makes it impossible to not main Force of Will. He seems fine in the combo and control matchups, but I'm dubious about his utility in creature matchups.
I've been loving Strix - I even cut my third Goyf for a third Strix. The blue count is a bit low without Strix so he shores up the combo matchup, he's awesome against any creature deck except for literally the card Thalia, and is an evasive man for Jitte. Goyf just gets plowed and then boarded out in so many matchups, although he's still a necessary evil against creatures.
Confidant seems like Goyf in that he's good if he lives, but he gets plowed for no value.
Jarvis - how did you like Engineered Plague?
It's pretty necessary for Goblins. If there were less goblins, I'd consider shaving it. Deed is pretty mediocre in this type of deck since you're so permanent heavy.
EPlague is also quite good against the last of the Maverick players (Human), Elves, and halfway decent against Dredge (Illusion, Horror, Zombie). It's a card that European decklists have had for some time, and their metagame is more filled with Maverick and Elves than American metagames. Was this your reference in deciding to run Eplague?
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I'm going to be honest with you: I don't really look at the results of European tournaments very often, but I did talk to several other people in my area (Maryland / DC) about several metagame calls. Ari Lax convinced me that there would be a lot of other Deathrite Shaman decks, Goblins and Miracles and that GW was on the decline. Plague certainly is pretty reasonable versus them and Elves (obviously).
People barely play Maverick here.. dunno where you get that from. I was honestly convinced american meta was full of Mav.
We have a lot of Stoneblade, Bug and combo to deal with out here.
edit: Curious, what are the 2-4 Tarmogoyf for in side?
I didn't have them sideboarded, but for Brian Braun Duin, I would guess that they come in versus Combo to present a faster clock.
Okay thanks, makes sense.
Plus you can sideboard them very any controldeck given, as long you made him think that you are a creatureless/poor deck. Once their removal is gone, Goyf shines by simply cutting them down in a few turns.
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Don't think UW will board out their removal - even if they don't see a ton of creatures G1.
Deathrite and Clique are significant threats they have to deal with. I also think that even the biggest "deed-lovers" "permanent haters" will start to play Deathrite and which would transform the BUG control archetype a bit away from deed.
Goyfs in the board are not the best clock vs. combo - usually a 3/4 for 1G where you have to tap out - playing creatures in your mainphase is so out anyway...
If i want a faster clock and somethign to bring in vs. control I would put Clique in the sideboard! Much much better in both matchups. Goyfs are key versus RUG, goblins or other random stuff like "brown decks", dredge, [UR] Burn,... where their defensive and offensive capabilities shine and a huge body is very much appreciated.
Currently playing: Elves
Bob is great if you want to play a slow grindy deck. The problem is you can't play Force of Will or Tombstalker with him in. Plus he sucks against combo and super-aggro.
Strix is awesome against Tarmogoyf/KoTR decks which is probably half the aggro decks. Strix is terrible against combo and Miracles.
Snapcaster mage is great if you have the mana and the spell in yard. The problem becomes when you have 4 mana normally it would be better to just play a Jace or Garruk.
Tarmogoyf is good against everything assuming your deck has a variety of different things. With BUG we should have no problem with that.
It's hard to come up with the perfect maindeck. I have had some problems casting Clique considering Hymn/Liliana require two black and Clique requires 2 U. Wastland can really put a damper in the color base.
Pretty much agree but
Confidant is super against combo, because he will live! Compared to goyf 1 damage less per turn, but drawing extra cards!
Goyf is "good" against everything: agree - he is never reall "bad", but there are still better options against most "swords" decks. Also the "we need clock" against combo is old thinking from times when Team America ran 4 Goyf / 4 Stalker. Next to a lavamancing manaelf, clique, a 2/1 flashing back discard and maybe a 2/1 drawing a bunch of cards I dont see the reason to run a 3/4 vanilla versus combo.
Currently playing: Elves
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