All B/R update speculation.

[Koby]

You only need to look at the decks lists from PT: New Orleans to really get a handle on what Tinker would do to this format. I'm all for discussion of unbanning any card on the list as long as there is a compelling argument accompanying it. I've never seen one for Tinker and I doubt one even exists.

From memory -
Goblin Recruiter
Metalworker
Tinker
Vampiric Tutor
Hermit Druid
Oath of Druids
Mind's Desire

Pretty much half the Legacy ban list. Ya this was a fair format.

[Hanni]

I'd love to put 4 Tinker's into my U/b MUD deck. I could easily make room for it ;) So go ahead and unban it so I can have fun destroying every person I play against.

[(nameless one)]

I'd love to put 4 Tinker's into my U/b MUD deck. I could easily make room for it ;) So go ahead and unban it so I can have fun destroying every person I play against.

I'm with Hanni on this one. Why risk getting your board nuked with a Stifled Forgemaster when I can feed Tinker a used Grim Monolith to get Blightsteel Colossus.

[GexxX]

There are quite a lot of Decks not able to handle turn 2 tinker on Blightsteel. The card has enough raw power to shift the Format on it's own. Show and Tell does not require an artifact to sacrifice, but it does let your opponent put a card into play. I think tutoring for whatever fits the situation seems like a solid trade. Seriously, Tinker unbanned? That's about as good an idea as Yawgmoth's Win or Bargain or Necropotence off the list. Warping a Format towards combodecks will just annoy the hell out of people who enjoy "fair" magic, which I believe most of the legacy players are. I have two Ideas in mind to abuse the card already and I bet my deckbuilding techniques are about the worst you have ever seen. ;)

A prison Strategy with Trinisphere and Tinker for the Win requires your opponent to have a counter ready turn1 or 2 to just be able to stop you when it counts a turn or maybe two later. Have you tried to counter multiple threats through a resolved 3Phere? It sucks!
Controlish build with a quick "I win" finisher? Well that's pretty absurd either. Picture a Hand full of counters, Turn one Sensei's Top and turn two Counterbalance without the need of a good amount of lands to play something big. They can also just stop anything with a change of pace naturally provided by a card like Tinker.

Seriously? Unpredictable Control-Wins? No thanks.

[Lemnear]

Shhhhhh!

Dude, don't ever MENTION cards like Yawgmoth's Will, Necropotence or Bargain. Every comparison or analogy results is a discussion about the cards...

[xfxf]

Seriously? Unpredictable Control-Wins? No thanks.

Entreat the Angels?

I'm not saying Tinker is fair though, just wanted to make a reminder.

[Amon Amarth]

I've always wanted to do an examination of the Banned List and give every card a fair shake. No time like the present!

I decided to omit manual dexterity cards, ante cards and Shahrazad because they're dumb.

Card rarity as well as it's price will also play a role in whether I consider it for unbanning or not, "power level" is still the most important factor though (over 9000, etc.)

Ancestral Recall

Why not start off with one of the Power 9? Well this card is fucking stupid. Draw 3 for one U, Instant speed. With Snapcaster and Regrowth in the format? Or hell, with no recursion spells ever printed? It's the poster boy for Blue dominance. The Power 9 are Vintage cards that are firmly ingrained in that format's identity and have absolutely no place in a format without a Restricted List. Also it costs a shit-fuck-ton of money. Verdict: Fuck No

Balance

This one is pretty crazy. I don't know of anyone that's ever tested this card in any deck in the last decade or so but the consensus is that is broken beyond belief. I've played it as a one-of in Vintage awhile ago and it was awesome. It's pretty close to a one-sided Wrath of God, Mind Twist and Armageddon. On the plus side it would make Land Tax see more play. Verdict: Fuck No

Bazaar of Baghdad

Price aside, this card is absurd in Dredge. Do you really want to board in 8 cards and still lose? Verdict: Fuck No

Black Lotus

Power 9. Verdict: Fuck No

Black Vise

Vise is interesting. It is a strong play on turn one but it can be mediocre to straight up terrible after any turn after that. This isn't 1995, not every deck durdles around with 12 cards in its hand. There are only 2 decks in my mind that might want to play with it. The obvious one is Burn. More free damage for 1 mana? Awesome. Except for the part where it reduces the consistency and redundancy of the deck which are it's main selling points over other aggressive decks. Affinity is the second deck that would most likely benefit from Black Vise. It's an aggressive one drop that's an artifact. It complements Shrapnel Blast. Affinity is hyper aggressive so it Vise seems like a natural inclusion. Worst case scenario Affinity becomes a DTb and people have to play cripplingly powerful artifact hate in their SB. I am a bit biased though; the thought of playing one of the most hated cards in one of the most hated decks ever tickles me to no end. Verdict: Unban

Channel

I'm sure there is no way someone could abuse 10+ colorless mana... Verdict: Fuck No

Demonic Consultation

Best tutor ever printed. Verdict: Fuck No

Demonic Tutor

Second best tutor ever printed. Verdict: Fuck No

Earthcraft

Earthcraft helps facilitate infinite 2-card combos in dominating decks like Enchantress and Elves. Oh, no wait, I think I meant to say tier 2. Verdict: Unban

Fastbond

Fastbond breaks one of the fundamental rules of Magic: the Gathering so hard that it warps time and space. Verdict: Fuck No

Flash

You remember the best deck ever, right? Verdict: Fuck No

Frantic Search

Oh come on! That's not fair! This one is actually kinda hard. Most obvious application is High Tide, either Solidarity or Spiral Tide variants. Not only is it a draw engine but it also produces mana with the eponymous card. I'm pretty certain this card is very strong here and High Tide would become a turn faster e.g. turn 3. I don't think something like that is healthy. Verdict: Requires Further Investigation

Goblin Recruiter

I really liked playing Food Chain Goblins. It is easily my favorite deck ever. An Aggro/Combo deck that seamlessly switches between those two roles, what's not to love? Goblin Recruiter certainly doesn't lack for power. It's not time-consuming because it won't take more than a few turn to grind someone out if your just jamming Ringleaders every turn, less so if you're comboing. What Goblin Recruiter would do is make Goblins (of the Vial/Food Chain flavors) the best deck in Legacy, although not overwhelmingly so. I'm biased but it's hard to deny that this is one of the strongest unbans they could realistically make. Verdict: Requires Further Investigation

Gush

If FCG was my favorite deck, Gro-a-Tog was my 2nd favorite. I love casting 'Tog and Dryad. You can't cast Ancestral, Yawg Win, Time Walk or whatever but you do get 4 Merchant Scroll and 4 Brainstorm. Oh, and Gush does some work in Storm decks too. Verdict: Fuck No

Hermit Druid

I've fluctuated from a hard unban to a more ambivalent position regarding Druid.dec. While the card, and deck by extension, is vulnerable to literally every single piece of disruption ever printed it is also extremely powerful, fast, and easy to pull off a la Show and Tell, except probably a turn faster. I don't know whether a faster, more fragile combo deck is good for Legacy or not. I'm certain the benefits are outweighed by the negatives. Verdict: Requires Further Investigation

Imperial Seal

I think a sorcery Vampiric Tutor is about the right power level for Legacy if not one of the best cards in the format. I imagine it would be similar to Vampiric Tutor in Old Extended i.e. every deck plays it but it doesn't break the format. It enables every combo deck imaginable but it also makes decks like a Keeper-esque control deck possible. How sweet would that be? Verdict: Requires Further Investigation, Too Expensive

Library of Alexandria

I have no idea if this card is even playable. Great in control mirrors but it's hard to keep this card active. Insane when it's online but meh otherwise. Requires Further Investigation, Too Expensive

Mana Crypt

You're kidding, right? Verdict: Fuck No

Mana Drain

Dark Ritual stapled to a Counterspell is probably too good and would only see a decrease in midrange and ramp decks in Legacy, at best. Not exactly healthy. Requires Further Investigation, Too Expensive

Mana Vault

A powerful card that could be used in MUD or Combo decks. Not sure if it is the bee's knees in either but it's definitely good. Storm would probably get more use out of a one-time boost than MUD which prefers mana sources they can tap to play bombs every turn. Verdict: Requires Further Investigation

Memory Jar

At 5 mana Jar is the most expensive Draw-7 on the Banned List. I think that most Combo decks want to run Ad Nauseum instead. That leaves MUD based decks the real winners here, specifically the ones that run Goblin Welder. Not only does Jar give you a new hand but it also dumps expensive artifacts into the graveyard. Artifact based decks have never been good choices in Legacy and I would vouch for this card as an unban if not for it's history of degeneracy. So... Verdict: Requires Further Investigation

Mental Misstep

I think this card has been banned too recently to see it come off anytime soon. Wait a few years and let's check back. Verdict: Stay Banned

Mind Twist

Another victim of powercreep. Mind Twist hasn't kicked ass since the early 90's. There isn't a home for the card except for the sideboard of dedicated Control decks. If you're going to sink a couple Rituals into a card it better be Ad Nauseum. Verdict: Unban

Mind's Desire

Extremely powerful but equally difficult to cast for full value. Double Blue and a 6 mana casting cost is a real killer. It is also worse than the equivalent Storm engines: Time Spiral and Ad Nasueum. It is more expensive than both and it takes many more resources to extract full value, making you even more vulnerable to disruption. I think it is a better Wish target than Diminishing Returns, at least. Verdict: Unban

Mishra's Workshop

I'm not sure if I liked Type 1.5 so much that I want it back. Verdict: Fuck No

Mox Emerald, Mox Jet, Mox Pearl, Mox Ruby, Mox Sapphire

Power 9. Verdict: Fuck No

Mystical Tutor

Banned too recently and also too good with miracles, combo, etc. Verdict: Stay Banned

Necropotence

Dark Ritual. Verdict: Fuck No

Oath of Druids

I like to play creatures. Verdict: Fuck No

Skullclamp

As much as I would enjoy and orgy of creature decks trying to one-up each other to try and be the best Skullclamp deck I think I'd rather keep the format in a somewhat recognizable shape. Call me old-fashioned. Verdict: Fuck No

Sol Ring

Probably best mana source ever printed. The format wouldn't look remotely the same. Verdict: Fuck No

Strip Mine

I like to cast spells. Verdict: Fuck No

Survival of the Fittest

Banned to soon although Snapcaster and Surgical Extraction/RIP put a serious hurting on the Vengevine zerg strategy. Verdict: Stay Banned

Time Vault

Power 9. Verdict: Fuck No

Time Walk

Power 9. Verdict: Fuck No

Timetwister

I honestly can't remember when the last time I saw a deck run 'twister in Vintage. Still, I think 3 mana Draw-7's are too good for Legacy and it's also worth too damn much. Verdict: Stay Banned, Too Expensive

Tinker

It's like a Demonic Tutor + Channel. That's fair, right? Verdict: Fuck No

Tolarian Academy

Not sure how powerful this card is without Moxen but there is still a good possibility of it doing silly stuff with LEDs, Petals and all the other fast mana in the format. Also, we can jam 4 Crop Rotation. Verdict: Fuck No

Vampiric Tutor

Too good, too fast. Vamp does too much for too little cost. I think it makes Combo decks too good in relation to the other archetypes. Verdict: Fuck No

Wheel of Fortune

Fast. Furious. Efficient. Verdict: Fuck No

Windfall

2Fast. 2Furious. Verdict: Fuck No

Worldgorger Dragon

I don't think Dragon is a problem. Without Bazaar the deck is severely weakened and will have a hard time comboing out with any regularity. It's also vulnerable to almost all disruption. Any fears of infinite draws are also overblown. Verdict: Unban

Yawgmoth's Bargain

There are still a lot of ways to cheat out Bargain. Rector is still a very good card too. Verdict: Fuck No

Yawgmoth's Will

Might as well save the best for last, eh? Yawgmoth's Will is the only card I can say for certain that every time I've cast it, I've won the game. Doesn't matter if it was Long.dec or Legend Black or my 5 color Commander deck. I'm X-0 bitches. Verdict: Fuck No

[Gunseng]

I still do not understand why Windfall is banned. It is only one mana cheaper than Diminishing Returns and does not even draw seven cards. Why is this card considered so powerful that it is on the banned list?

[dune2k]

Just quoting the stuff where I disagree...

Black Vise

Vise is interesting. It is a strong play on turn one but it can be mediocre to straight up terrible after any turn after that. This isn't 1995, not every deck durdles around with 12 cards in its hand. There are only 2 decks in my mind that might want to play with it. The obvious one is Burn. More free damage for 1 mana? Awesome. Except for the part where it reduces the consistency and redundancy of the deck which are it's main selling points over other aggressive decks. Affinity is the second deck that would most likely benefit from Black Vise. It's an aggressive one drop that's an artifact. It complements Shrapnel Blast. Affinity is hyper aggressive so it Vise seems like a natural inclusion. Worst case scenario Affinity becomes a DTb and people have to play cripplingly powerful artifact hate in their SB. I am a bit biased though; the thought of playing one of the most hated cards in one of the most hated decks ever tickles me to no end. Verdict: Unban

It's also pretty powerful against most combo decks (in an aggro deck), since it represents a cheap fast clock and that's especially a problem for storm decks when you need to collect some cards to go off against say a deck playing blue (=being able to counter)...not a fan of it.

Goblin Recruiter

I really liked playing Food Chain Goblins. It is easily my favorite deck ever. An Aggro/Combo deck that seamlessly switches between those two roles, what's not to love? Goblin Recruiter certainly doesn't lack for power. It's not time-consuming because it won't take more than a few turn to grind someone out if your just jamming Ringleaders every turn, less so if you're comboing. What Goblin Recruiter would do is make Goblins (of the Vial/Food Chain flavors) the best deck in Legacy, although not overwhelmingly so. I'm biased but it's hard to deny that this is one of the strongest unbans they could realistically make. Verdict: Requires Further Investigation

Aside from the "not fun" part while watching an opponent stack their decks for like 5 minutes this also has this written over it: 1R: I win against any sort of control decks.
After resolving a recruiter you can just slam goblin after goblin on the board which needs to be handled...and in the case of Miracles that's not even possible. If they Terminus away your Goblins you just play the next recruiter and play them again...not cool from the point of view of a control player.
Biggest problem Goblins have right now is their combo matchup, control is decent to good as it is.

Hermit Druid

I've fluctuated from a hard unban to a more ambivalent position regarding Druid.dec. While the card, and deck by extension, is vulnerable to literally every single piece of disruption ever printed it is also extremely powerful, fast, and easy to pull off a la Show and Tell, except probably a turn faster. I don't know whether a faster, more fragile combo deck is good for Legacy or not. I'm certain the benefits are outweighed by the negatives. Verdict: Requires Further Investigation

This is a consistent turn 2-3 kill that can be put in almost every shell (control, combo, aggro). It's true that you can easily kill it, but only if you a) have some removal in hand and b) your opponent can't countet said removal spell and I don't think that a deck relying on a combo to win in Legacy wouldn't have a way to secure it. ;)

Memory Jar

At 5 mana Jar is the most expensive Draw-7 on the Banned List. I think that most Combo decks want to run Ad Nauseum instead. That leaves MUD based decks the real winners here, specifically the ones that run Goblin Welder. Not only does Jar give you a new hand but it also dumps expensive artifacts into the graveyard. Artifact based decks have never been good choices in Legacy and I would vouch for this card as an unban if not for it's history of degeneracy. So... Verdict: Requires Further Investigation

Although being more mana intesive than the other banned draw 7s this is colorless and can be brought back for almost as often as you like (and played 4 times as well!). Also it's, against any non blue decks, pretty one sided...

Worldgorger Dragon

I don't think Dragon is a problem. Without Bazaar the deck is severely weakened and will have a hard time comboing out with any regularity. It's also vulnerable to almost all disruption. Any fears of infinite draws are also overblown. Verdict: Unban

Well, a draw if provoked by a player is already punished with a game loss...still not that cool to win that way. And there's also the case that you disrupt their combo and they have to draw.

[SpikeyMikey]

Yawgmoth's Will

Might as well save the best for last, eh? Yawgmoth's Will is the only card I can say for certain that every time I've cast it, I've won the game. Doesn't matter if it was Long.dec or Legend Black or my 5 color Commander deck. I'm X-0 bitches. Verdict: Fuck No

Pretty sure I don't believe you. Issues of resolving it 100% of the time aside, I've lost games where I've resolved YawgWin. Most notably to a Sligh player who Forked my Will and then proceeded to Bolt me out, but on several other occasions as well. Of course, the last time I played a format where Will was legal was at least a decade ago.

[LennonMarx]

Well, a draw if provoked by a player is already punished with a game loss...still not that cool to win that way. And there's also the case that you disrupt their combo and they have to draw.

Unless that is a super recent change, a draw is a draw, whether it is casting Flame Rift with each player is at 4, or some loop like 3 Oblivion Rings or Dragon + Animate Dead. Even in that case, the fear of matches ending 1-0-5 is pretty overblown. I played dragon for a lot of years in Vintage, and while there are definitely games that you draw strategically, I don't think I ever had a match go more than like 2-1-2. Coupled with the fact that Dragon kills itself if you give it a stern glance, I think it is likely safe.

[dune2k]

Unless that is a super recent change, a draw is a draw, whether it is casting Flame Rift with each player is at 4, or some loop like 3 Oblivion Rings or Dragon + Animate Dead. Even in that case, the fear of matches ending 1-0-5 is pretty overblown. I played dragon for a lot of years in Vintage, and while there are defiantly games that you draw strategically, I don't think I ever had a match go more than like 2-1-2. Coupled with the fact that Dragon kills itself if you give it a stern glance, I think it is likely safe.

Wanted to add in a "if I recall correctly" but got disturbed...I'll check that out though later today. :)

[mrjumbo03]

It'll be interesting to see how a 4cc(2UB) Windfall with a slightly irrelevant keyword would affect the format. It just got spoiled.

[Amon Amarth]

Just quoting the stuff where I disagree...


It's also pretty powerful against most combo decks (in an aggro deck), since it represents a cheap fast clock and that's especially a problem for storm decks when you need to collect some cards to go off against say a deck playing blue (=being able to counter)...not a fan of it.

Storm doesn't need to sculpt a perfect hand against aggro decks nor do they really care much about their life total. Either they run out 12 Goblins one the first turn or can kill with PiF or whatever. AdN isn't the primary path to victory here.

Aside from the "not fun" part while watching an opponent stack their decks for like 5 minutes this also has this written over it: 1R: I win against any sort of control decks.
After resolving a recruiter you can just slam goblin after goblin on the board which needs to be handled...and in the case of Miracles that's not even possible. If they Terminus away your Goblins you just play the next recruiter and play them again...not cool from the point of view of a control player.
Biggest problem Goblins have right now is their combo matchup, control is decent to good as it is.

Goblins is Miracles worst matchup. Its straight-up terrible. Recruiter doesn't change anything there. Goblins already beats Control decks. Theoretically, Goblin Recruiter lets you go over the top of the creature decks as well lets you race Combo decks. That's the problem.


This is a consistent turn 2-3 kill that can be put in almost every shell (control, combo, aggro). It's true that you can easily kill it, but only if you a) have some removal in hand and b) your opponent can't countet said removal spell and I don't think that a deck relying on a combo to win in Legacy wouldn't have a way to secure it. ;)

Uh, I'm not sure you really want to be putting Hermit Druid in any deck. The combo eats up 10-ish slots and something as fragile as Druid wants quite a bit of protection. You can't just toss a Druid out there without protection and expect to always untap with it. There would be a dedicated Hermit Druid Combo deck.


Although being more mana intesive than the other banned draw 7s this is colorless and can be brought back for almost as often as you like (and played 4 times as well!). Also it's, against any non blue decks, pretty one sided...

I imagine Jar is at it's best with Metalworker. If MUD becomes Tier 1, I won't lose any sleep. It's not as if the deck is impossible to hate out. None of the other applications seem very exciting. The other combo engines are better for their respective decks. Jar requires too much effort for too little reward in Storm.

Well, a draw if provoked by a player is already punished with a game loss...still not that cool to win that way. And there's also the case that you disrupt their combo and they have to draw.

You can only draw if there are no creatures in any graveyard. If you disrupt their combo they lose because you exiled all of their permanents or they get their dragon exiled from their GY.

@SpikeMikey. No hyperbole. I'm not saying it's impossible to lose when casting Yawgmoth's Will it's just much much much harder to lose. I choose to use a personal anecdote instead of something like "Herp Derp" that I used for some of the cards. :)

[seamonkeyman]

I completely agree with Gunseng. Why is Windfall banned anymore?
What Deck would even want it? TES would rather wish for Diminishing Returns and draw the guaranteed 7 cards.
High tide maybe, but does it make the deck that much better?

[dune2k]

Storm doesn't need to sculpt a perfect hand against aggro decks nor do they really care much about their life total. Either they run out 12 Goblins one the first turn or can kill with PiF or whatever. AdN isn't the primary path to victory here.

I know, I play storm decks myself. Still the most problematic matchup is one where you face a fast clock+disruption. Since Vise is colorless it's something you can easily put into any deck to basically land a flipped delver on T1. For RUG this would mean playing 8 Delvers, so making an already bad MU even worse.
Anyways, the biggest problem, in general, I see with it: It's not a creature. Most decks have not too many outs handling it once it hits the table aside from staying on 4 cards in hand. (Although this might have changed with the printing of Abrupt Decay+Deathrite Shaman, giving BG a boost.)

Biggest problem Goblins have right now is their combo matchup, control is decent to good as it is.

Goblins is Miracles worst matchup. Its straight-up terrible. Recruiter doesn't change anything there. Goblins already beats Control decks. Theoretically, Goblin Recruiter lets you go over the top of the creature decks as well lets you race Combo decks. That's the problem.

Yup. As I said: For Miracles it makes Goblins not just a bad MU but almost unwinnable.

Uh, I'm not sure you really want to be putting Hermit Druid in any deck. The combo eats up 10-ish slots and something as fragile as Druid wants quite a bit of protection. You can't just toss a Druid out there without protection and expect to always untap with it. There would be a dedicated Hermit Druid Combo deck.

You could easily build different shells around it: One controlish shell that also has the chance to just win T3, an aggro shell - probably having quite a few cards with Dredge in common - and a full on combo shell with fast mana and a little protection (Chrome Mox/Mox Diamond/Lotus Petal+FoW+Daze+Cantrips).

Still working on the dragon thing. :)

Re: Windfall
It would only be powerful casting it T1 after emptying your hand, after that it gets worse than Diminishing Returns. The advantage it has there is that it's cheaper and easier to cast. Still I doubt it would be played, if at all, more than a 1off as a wish target. Unless I miss something here I don't see a reason for it to stay banned.

[Amon Amarth]

I know, I play storm decks myself. Still the most problematic matchup is one where you face a fast clock+disruption. Since Vise is colorless it's something you can easily put into any deck to basically land a flipped delver on T1. For RUG this would mean playing 8 Delvers, so making an already bad MU even worse.
Anyways, the biggest problem, in general, I see with it: It's not a creature. Most decks have not too many outs handling it once it hits the table aside from staying on 4 cards in hand. (Although this might have changed with the printing of Abrupt Decay+Deathrite Shaman, giving BG a boost.)



Yup. As I said: For Miracles it makes Goblins not just a bad MU but almost unwinnable.



You could easily build different shells around it: One controlish shell that also has the chance to just win T3, an aggro shell - probably having quite a few cards with Dredge in common - and a full on combo shell with fast mana and a little protection (Chrome Mox/Mox Diamond/Lotus Petal+FoW+Daze+Cantrips).

Still working on the dragon thing. :)

Re: Windfall
It would only be powerful casting it T1 after emptying your hand, after that it gets worse than Diminishing Returns. The advantage it has there is that it's cheaper and easier to cast. Still I doubt it would be played, if at all, more than a 1off as a wish target. Unless I miss something here I don't see a reason for it to stay banned.

But what would RUG Delver take out? Not actual removal spells like Bolt because there are too many creatures that if they live will mess you up e.g. Goblin/Merfolk/Elf X, Deathrite Shaman, Mother of Runes, Putrid Imp, etc. Vise plays really well with LD, keeping cards in your opponents hands but the card is too high variance and you can't cut removal for it. I still assert that only a hyper-aggressive deck would actually want to play it where if you draw it late it doesn't matter because drawing any card in your deck at that point is probably going to be pretty bad.

Windfall is probably the worst Draw-7 on the list. I am more conservative about it's potential unban than other cards because I have so little experience with it and it's ilk in formats where you can play 4 of them. I think it would be a good Wish target though.

[GGoober]

This thread is getting angry. I did a Chrome search for "Fuck" and found 30 (31 including this post) entries on this page, contributed primarily by Amon Amarth :P I still can't believe how people are suggesting Tinker and Yawgwin as potential unbans. Even without Moxen and BL, these cards can already utilize Legacy's cardpool to do crazy stuff (4LED + Yawgwin??).

On a side note, I personally think Survival is fair enough to come off the list. Winning on turn 3 with a deck that is dependent on at least 4 cards (2 lands, SotF, 1 creature) and a kickstart of about 'GGG' mana is less scary than the damage Survival brought before it got axed. It's a resilient engine when active, but I personally think with all the new tools these days (Phyrexian-mana Extraction and DRS and RiP), Survival isn't going to be as unstoppable as it once was. Besides, I have always thought Mental Misstep to be more format warping than SotF ever was, and if both SotF and MM were potentially unbanned, MM is still going to have a larger impact for most parts.

[Hanni]

On a side note, I personally think Survival is fair enough to come off the list. Winning on turn 3 with a deck that is dependent on at least 4 cards (2 lands, SotF, 1 creature) and a kickstart of about 'GGG' mana is less scary than the damage Survival brought before it got axed. It's a resilient engine when active, but I personally think with all the new tools these days (Phyrexian-mana Extraction and DRS and RiP), Survival isn't going to be as unstoppable as it once was. Besides, I have always thought Mental Misstep to be more format warping than SotF ever was, and if both SotF and MM were potentially unbanned, MM is still going to have a larger impact for most parts.

While I would love to see Survival come off the list, you're looking at Survival all wrong. It's not just an enabler for a slow (turn 4) combo deck with Vengevines, it's a very powerful engine card. Imagine tossing it into Maverick. All of a sudden, Maverick gains a robust card advantage engine that tutors for any answer it needs, before winning with a pile of Vengevines, or putting a Knight of the Reliquary into play every turn as a backup plan vs hate.

I'm not for or against the unbanning of Survival, and I do think that Survival/Vengevine would not be overpowered these days. I was simply pointing out that Survival does more than just put Vengevines into play.

[Koby]

While I would love to see Survival come off the list, you're looking at Survival all wrong. It's not just an enabler for a slow (turn 4) combo deck with Vengevines, it's a very powerful engine card. Imagine tossing it into Maverick. All of a sudden, Maverick gains a robust card advantage engine that tutors for any answer it needs, before winning with a pile of Vengevines, or putting a Knight of the Reliquary into play every turn as a backup plan vs hate.

I'm not for or against the unbanning of Survival, and I do think that Survival/Vengevine would not be overpowered these days. I was simply pointing out that Survival does more than just put Vengevines into play.

Just a nitpick, Maverick started off as the old skeleton of GW Survival. It would simply morph back to its roots.

I think the tools in the latest sets (Surgical, RIP, Grafdigger's Cage) are enough roadblocks to make Survival an interesting addition. Of course, I'm biased and want to play EPIC Survival Elves, so take that with a kilo of salt. Survival is still a potent engine, and should be heavily tested before re-introduced.