I will link the latest tops of the deck. :) The first two were linked by SBGpinas with Google Translate I prefer the normal website lol
http://manainfinito.com/coverage/lis...2012-noviembre
http://manainfinito.com/coverage/lis...l-2012-octubre
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=50057
and our local December 2, 2012 Major Legacy Event by SBGpinas.
Well I'm not being emotional, this is the 12-post forums and calling the deck not strong enough, doesn't deserve to be in the Established forums and other adjectives requires some reaction. If you must understand try posting as an example on the Maverick forums that their deck is weak and can't compete in the meta anymore. You can check if no one will react lol It thrives on the right meta and one of the few decks which can Kill UW Miracles with little to less problems. The decks to beat are shifting always to the meta on which Legacy shifts on. Archetypes rise and archetypes fall, BUG is back on the map but it has disappeared for a very long time.
I don't mean to denigrate the progress made by all of the play-testers and deck-builders who posted in this thread from its inception.
I am certainly not insinuating that this deck is not capable of competing in high-level tournaments, because clearly, based on recent SCG results, it is most definitely capable of doing so.
I really just want to understand how this deck is as successful as it is. After testing it myself, and analyzing the deck list from a deck-building theory standpoint, I just don't see it. This deck seemingly flouts conventional deck-building wisdom regarding archetypes and strategies that have been established over the course of the game's existence. It is a control deck that uses a combo deck's tempo-based stalling tactics, or a combo deck that tries to control the game without enough widely applicable control tools.
After re-reading the OP in this thread several times, I am still at a loss for a good explanation on the minutiae of the game plan in every match-up. I wish there was a better, more in-depth primer on this deck than the one in the first post. I want to learn how to play this deck against the widely played tier archetypes without feeling as if I am paddling upstream while fighting raging rapids that are pummeling the sides of my canoe.
Ok thanks for explaining :)Originally Posted by MGB
The deck is actually complicated based on it's draw. You can have a Show and Tell plan with Primeval Titan which makes you Ramp up really easy to Eldrazzis. Difference with this to other Show and Tell Decks is that Sneak Show has it's weaknesses with regards to Karakas. Omni-tell can easily be sideboarded against with O-ring, Venser, Angel of Despair and etc. If Show and Tell gets countered, you have outs because you can hard play your Fatties.
Or you can have a quick Ramp plan if you draw a lot of Vesuva's and Cloudposts. One repeal tempo play is enough to buy you time for let's say like a turn 4 Ulamog. This deck is hard to disrupt via counters because most of the cards you play are not combo-ish. Most decks don't really pack so much Land Hate which is this decks investment plan. That's the reason it can do well, it's resilient.
I agree on the said weaknesses of the deck. Really tough to beat Storm and you have to play correctly. The thing is you just have to accept the deck's weaknesses and strengths. What's your meta in your place anyway? Tweaking the main deck and sideboard is the only thing we can really do.
How was everyone's testing against the BUG Delver or BUG Control matchup?
Does the Nov. 25 list perform well? Or does Rock's new test list perform better?
Finished 2nd in a small legacy tournament filled with RUG Delver and BG decks :)
went 3-0-1 we drew the last round and split packs. Got an Overgrown Tomb in it.
I adjusted the main deck again into a 4 show and tell build and the 3rd brainstorm because I think it's better than 2 All is Dust in a RUG Meta. Although didn't face any RUG until the finals which we drew anyway. We played 3 games and I won game 1 and 3 :)
Round 1 - Affinity 2-0 (Double turn 3 show and tell Primetime)
Round 2 - MBA with Green 2-0 (This was a funny game as game 2 I couldn't get anything going except for a turn 8 Glacial Chasm with just one more land because I couldn't draw extra lands. One of them was Wastelanded and my 2 Expedition Maps got Krosan Gripped my Sensei's Top Pithing Needles. Luckily he doesn't draw the Wasteland he needed and died to his Double Bitterblossom and 1 Dark Confidant lol)
Round 3 - Nic Fit 2-0 (Game 1 Hardplay Primeval Titan then Infinite turns. Game 2 dragged along so long as my Eye of Ugin died and he got an Acidic Slime Volrath Stronghold combo going on. I held on with lands and was able to legend rule his phyrexian tower and volrath into an All is Dust. After much shuffling and topping got Emrakul for the win.
Round 4 - (Test) RUG won 2-1
Went a very dissapointing 3-4 at our national championship with 100 players
Round 1 against Omnitell:
Lose game one to a shown and told omnisciense into emrakul + griselbrand. Win 2 games on back on Venser and karakas
1-0
Round 2 against BUG
Win game 1 with a hardcast primeval after my show and tell got counter. Lose 2 games after getting hymned, wastelanded and Vendilion Cliqued
1-1
Round 3 against Cascade aggro feat bloodbraid elf and ancestral vision
Dont remember much of this, won 2-1
2-1
Round 4 against MUD (sigh)
Game one he gets a 2nd turn metalworker and plays a lot of big stuff including Karn liberated while I sit with an All is dust in hand. I manage win game 2 but lose again game 3
2-2
Round 5 against Nivmagus combo
Repeal is really good here and so it gets fowed game 1 and surgical extracted game 2, while he beats me with a 10/11 niv-magus elemental on his 3rd turn after random spell + flusterstorm both games. He also sides in Price of Progress
2-3
Round 6 against BUG + natural order
He gets progenitus out but I race it with primeval titan
3-3
Round 7 agianst 5-color zoo
Win game 1, lose game 2-3 to fast beats albeit slowing him down with repeals. This game should have been a win but I was rather tired at that point so I might have made some mistakes.
3-4
So, eventhough I managed to dodge the ANT-decks(whitch I had 8 SB cards for) I also dodged all UW-miracle decks, esper control and junk/maverick decks. The BUG-matchup is not impossible but pretty rough, because Hymn + clique + wasteland is hard to beat. The nivmagus deck had pretty much the nutdraw 2 games in a row, and I think that deck folds to itself and has many bad matchups so its not to much to worry about. The MUD-matchup is terrible as previously has been mentioned.
Sorry to hear you had a poor showing. I find that beating BUG comes down to keeping stable hands instead of active-hands. I also sideboard weirdly against them. I side out cards like Show & Tell, and just go for increased advantage cards. Their Build also depends hugely.
I have found in testing for BUG to be a positive matchup, but it does require heavy playtesting.
Been testing a build with trinket mages again, to meet halfway my perceived weakness of Pithing Needle, by running less of them, and my desire for more advantage and play.
What's you bullet package with Trinkets in? Is it as simple as Needle/Chalice/EE/Nihil/Relic?
Isn't Trinket Mage a little to slow for Pithing Needles? :)
Yes. If you only need mages for needles, then by all means just run more needles. Trinket Mage is there to make slow do-nothing hands into incredible monsters.
Just play miracles if u don't like bug decks, you can play off the top of your deck.
Btw winning games with blind miracles is soo much fun due to the fact you opponent will just rage after about "luck" and "statistics"
Took the POST IT! List to a top 8 of duels yesterday. And time walking is fun. try reknit and spellskite in sb for bug decks. Kite blocks good all day and reknit helps with abrupt and waste. It was a good cards for me.
Don't fallow the "ANT" tooting his horn. Not everything you read is right.
This is a deck you build to suit YOUR play style. Just test a lot. Knowing what hands and how to sb is key to this deck
So yeah playtested against this guy who knows the decks ins and outs.
Went to a 2-3 Record pre-boarding and a 0-2 after sideboarding.
He had a Goblin Chieftain Build which can really get the damage on. Krenko is also just insane because he can create enough tokens to beat annihilator.
I used to think sublime love was just a troll or always drunk, but now I realize he really is just verging on illiterate. Heinous molestation of the English language aside, be wary of his advice. He did beat me in the swiss of said event, because a Temporal Mastery build has an advantage over a holistic and stronger main only against the mirror. If the meta becomes so saturated where the mirror has to be won, then Temporal Mastery deserves more credit than I have given it in the past.
Until then however, it is a brick against RUG, and simply win-more against too many decks in the meta at the moment, where reactive spells are stronger. This isn't a preference-concept. This is just testing.
More proof of sublime love's trolling/belligerent blindness, suggesting reknit over cards I have suggested in a similar vein in the past like skyshroud blessing. This pilot has been trolling me for years now. Just be aware and choose however your testing see's fit.
typing with a retarded auto correct phone, yup, drunk usually, trolling yes, dyslexic also yes. Sad it took this long to call me out.
I don't test anymore, I just run it. And yes temporal is godly in this deck. Try it with show and tell it's bonkers.
Testing is overrated, it's all situational experience that gets there.
Rug is a 60/40 favor match up. Once in a wile it gets me, I don't mind. It is usually due to a GOOD rug player. Like idk John of Carol who ONLY play rug. The same way you play post.
I troll just to keep u off Mount Olympus, if u did tournament reports of the times you don't get to top, I bet one would start to learn more from that. one usually learns more from mistakes, it's only a mistake if you don't learn from it.
I don't reed this form EVERY day, so I did not see reknit was chatted about. this is a form for LEARNING how to play post. I already know how. I just poke in every now and then.
I read up on other decks I don't know. like 4 color aggro, or nivmagus aggro. Those decks look fun to play
(quote of the day)
'I would agree with you, but then we would both be wrong'
Rock, Sublime love, could you please post both the lists you're currently playing? I'd be curious to see what you took out to make room for trinket mages and their toolbox and how's a turbo eldrazi miracle build. Thanks
// Lands
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
4 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [B] Tropical Island
2 [ZEN] Island (2)
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [CMD] Bojuka Bog
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
2 [FD] Trinket Mage
// Spells
3 [US] Show and Tell
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [GP] Repeal
2 [ROE] All Is Dust
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 3 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 [PLC] Pongify
SB: 1 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
Is the list I'm testing currently. As you can see, the only decks I'm going to have issues against are late-game combo that can be stopped by Pithing needle. So Helm or Sneak attack. Of course, at the event I was at two days ago, I faced the only two sneak attack decks in the room and missed top 8 coming in 9th.
For this reason, this build is still theoretical. I only post the list on the front if I know it works.
So in that above iteration, the solo ensnaring bridge comes in for critter filled aggro decks instead of elephant grass? How is that working out against goblins or fish?
no, in said sideboard, the bridge is there strictly for 5+ power dude decks. Mud, sneaky-show, omni, and the like.
I'm still not solid on the sideboard choice though. I'm alternating between that and this:
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 3 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 [PLC] Pongify
SB: 1 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
Last edited by Rock Lee; 12-17-2012 at 07:18 PM.
How were the Trinket Mages in testing? Did they perform as you expected?
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