[Deck] The Rock

[sdematt]

I think sylvan library is as equally as important as top in a junk list. Given the fact that junk decks don' t have the card drawing of blue, sylvan library becomes their extra draw when needed and when your life total is still high. I love the feeling of manipulating your draw phase to suit your needs.

As to top, it is there just in case you need some manipulation during your opponent' s turn.

This. Drawing extra cards and not just manipulation, is a big deal. I challenge a deck with Sylvan online versus a Top online in a Junk mirror and see who will win.

@ Goyf vs. Knight

I've noticed Knight does definitely get outclassed, especially in Deathrite mirrors, whereas Tarmogoyf stays usually in the 3/4 to 5/6 range. This isn't a problem, since once you kill Deathrite you just repump your Knights, but it's something to keep track of. Also, Shaman wars are amazing.

"Remove that!"
"In response, remove it instead."
"Damn!"

@ Part 2 of the article

Part 2 should be coming out before Christmas, or between Christmas and New Year's before GP Denver, hopefully with sideboarding hints, tips, tricks, etc. and what you should or should not be playing as not only a Junk player, but as Miracles and Maverick. I have no problem pushing decks that we can win against.

-Matt

[Barbed Blightning]

This. Drawing extra cards and not just manipulation, is a big deal. I challenge a deck with Sylvan online versus a Top online in a Junk mirror and see who will win.

In all fairness, though, Top has the advantage of being able to dodge removal, and not just abrupt decay--Deed, E.E., non-krosan grip artifact hate, etc.--which is something Library cannot do. The ability to dig is great, granted, but Library definitely has its faults as well. Then again, my list plays more tempo-y than others, almost like a more resilient Tempo Thresh.

Great article, and though I disagree with the zero-lilly plan, I understand the logic. Can't wait for part two.

[Esper3k]

Just curious, but how come people aren't playing Choke anymore? Do you feel that the UW Miracles matchup is good enough without it?

In my experience, that matchup is still pretty rough, especially when they do things like Terminus (on your turn) into Jace. Hand disruption is also not as great against them since Top allows them to hide their goodies from us.

[godofallu]

Played a couple more mirror matches this morning against my roommate.

The first 3 games were won by an early sylvan library pulling the one deck ahead. It really is great and I was absolutely wrong to be playing only 1.

Lingering souls got blown out with Mpulse multiple times and requires you to run equipment to make it good. In total I would have preferred a Tarmogoyf 6/7 times to it. I am going to remove these and Jitte. They aren't worth the room, even with the cute trick with Liliana.

I upped the Liliana count to 4 trying to get her often so I could analyze her but in 6 game I still only played her 2 times. The first time she killed a Deathrite then died. The second she was played mid topdeck war and kept growing with no real effect. Eventually she did kill a topdecked creature with plenty of loyalty to spare for more, but it was never needed.

Top was quite bad for me the two games I had it. Both games I was on 3 lands and the choice between activating DS or using top usually went to shaman.

I think Lingering Souls, Ith, Jitte are all easy cuts. Second Library is a must and Liliana needs more testing.

[Kyle]

I think Liliana works best in blue decks and/or decks running Life from the Loam. I love her so very much, but unless you're running LftL in Junk/Rock, she's making you pitch your trumps. Landing her Turn 2 or Turn 3 is nifty and all, but there's too much card parity at that point.

[dballard]

Top was quite bad for me the two games I had it. Both games I was on 3 lands and the choice between activating DS or using top usually went to shaman.

This.

Depending on what you're playing against, the mana isn't always there for Top. I find Library preferable in almost every instance.

[RPrajzner]

Lilliana isn't the best card in most matchups but her versatility as a discard engine against combo/control and a removal spell verse aggro is amazing. She can also randomly just win games.

[sdematt]

Just curious, but how come people aren't playing Choke anymore? Do you feel that the UW Miracles matchup is good enough without it?

Unless you catch them in tap-out mode, Choke often ends up being subpar for a few reasons.

1) The deck can still with with Jace on board and a Choke.
2) Tapping out for a Jace through a Choke is still good for them.
3) They run Plains that allow them to Top while saving their Islands for ballbusting plays.

Choke doesn't do enough because they can save their mana for Entreat the Angels, or run with Karakas and Plains as much as possible. It just doesn't do enough unless you're heavy on other tax effects.

-Matt

[yutang]

Hi Rock players,

I'm thinking about switching my Deadguy deck over to the Rock. This is my first draft based upon a few lists seen in this thread. I'm currently on 61 cards and I want to cut down to 60 cards (I'm a believer of the 60 card philosophy). At the moment, -1 SDT seems most logical. What are your thoughts? I play in a very blue meta.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Sylvan Library
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Maze of Ith
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland

Sb:
2 Grafdiggers Cage
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Golgari Charm
2 Engineered Plague
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Garruk Relentless

Edit: Changed decklist

[sdematt]

I'd personally cut a Liliana and retool the sideboard, but you do have 5 more slots in the main (without cutting Liliana), I hope you realize. I think you forgot 3/4 Thoughtseizes and 2/1 Inquisition of Kozilek.

I don't think you need Charm AND Plague, but your call.

-Matt

[dballard]

Anyone tried out Selesnya Charm? I'm thinking maybe boarding it for mirror matches to make our boys bigger or more help to remove their big boys? Any opinions? Just seems like good utility all around - but not sure what I'd take out for it.

[Kich867]

So, I'm finally into my career (software engineer woo!) and decided to start moving myself into a big boy deck. The list isn't complete for sure yet, but I have an idea of where I'm going with it. A friend told me that I'd love this deck (I love everything G/B really, but this in particular) and he certainly wasn't wrong. The way my mind thinks about magic and the way this archetype plays is very in sync and I've been having a blast, anyways...on to the list:

// Creatures: 12
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Dark Confidant
4x Deathrite Shaman

// Spells: 19
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Duress
3x Lingering Souls
2x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Abrupt Decay

// Planeswalkers: 1
1x Garruk Relentless

// Artifacts: 4
2x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Sensei's Divining Top

// Enchantments: 2
2x Sylvan Library

// Lands: 23
2x Bayou
2x Scrublands
2x Savannah
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Marsh Flats
2x Wasteland
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Karakas
1x Plains
1x Swamp
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Forest


Right now, there's some budgetary constraints (don't have Savannahs, karakas, or the last bob yet, have everything else) but otherwise I'm loving this list to death. I feel like every game is dramatically different, Lingering Souls carries a lot of weight. I mainly came here to inquire about sideboarding options. Off the top of my head I was thinking something like this:

3x Surgical Extraction
1x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Garruk Relentless
3x Pernicious Deed
3x Hymn to Tourach
...? 3 more things.

[AggroSteve]

i am actually using top..... i could bite my ass for selling my librarys, but i needed the money and top seemed to be better for the list i used to run, but now that i switched to deathrite shaman i would love to get them back, because against slow-rolling decks it is just what you want, the cardadvantage is just awesome

hopefully i will get my hands on some copies again

[yutang]

sdematt - I'll try cutting a Liliana and see how it goes. I also forgot 4/2 of Thoughtseize and Inquisition.

Another question is whether Top should be run in conjunction with Library and if so, what should be the split? 2/2 or 3/1 Library Top?

[sdematt]

sdematt - I'll try cutting a Liliana and see how it goes. I also forgot 4/2 of Thoughtseize and Inquisition.

Another question is whether Top should be run in conjunction with Library and if so, what should be the split? 2/2 or 3/1 Library Top?

I've also been toying with 3 Libraries, but they do NOTHING in multiples, so I'm going to go with 2/2 for now. You could try one as a "Top/Library", and when you draw it, record when you want it to be a Library, and when you want it to be a Top and take it from there.

@ Aggrosteve

Is it just you can't find the Sylvan Libraries, or you don't have the money? Let me know either way.

-Matt

[AggroSteve]

i sold my two librarys about 2 months ago, needed the money..... sucks to be a "poor student" when you want to play legacy :D (i do not like the other formats :P)

right now i got a little spare money but i think i should put it aside so i can buy some real duals soon, which should be my priority :P

this was another reason for me not using librarys, as the lifeloss was allready quite high due to shockland + fetch + thoughtseize

[Amazing Larry]

Hi, I'm new to this site, but a long-time player. I'm very interested in the newer developments for this deck. Last spring/summer I was running a Junk build that was mainly the stock list: 4 Goyfs, 4 Knights, 4 Bobs, 1 Ooze, 1 Pridemage, GSZ, 6-8 Discard, 4 Swords, 2-3 Pulse, and 2 Tops+the usual 23 lands. I love mid-range Junk because it suits my play style just perfectly, but I found that the list I was running was not doing great as Miracles was rising, and the RUG match up was just not great either. So I shelved the deck, and ran mostly Zombardment for the last few months. Now with Deathrite and Decay available, I'm back on the Junk-wagon. Ive been running sdematt's list for the most part (60 cards, no Timely Reinforcements, and Garruk is in the SB), and finding that the deck just gets there most of the time. I really attribute this to Sylvan Library, a card that I had not thought to use previously in this deck. Given that Library is nuts, is cutting tops altogether an option? I was tinkering with running 3 Libraries and no tops, instead adding the 4th Decay, or maybe an extra Goyf in the open spot. Thoughts?

My SB is as follows:
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Bojuka Bog
3 Surgical Extraction
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Garruk Wildspeaker
2 Pernicious Deed

[crow_mw]

I really attribute this to Sylvan Library, a card that I had not thought to use previously in this deck. Given that Library is nuts, is cutting tops altogether an option? I was tinkering with running 3 Libraries and no tops, instead adding the 4th Decay, or maybe an extra Goyf in the open spot.

Better players than myself will probably come here to answer your questions, but throughout this thread multiple times people advised against running more than two libraries. The reason is, that a second one does absolutely nothing (more aggressive decks, like Maverick, actually often run only a single copy). 2/1 split with top is most likely a much better choice than three libraries.

[Esper3k]

Unless you catch them in tap-out mode, Choke often ends up being subpar for a few reasons.

1) The deck can still with with Jace on board and a Choke.
2) Tapping out for a Jace through a Choke is still good for them.
3) They run Plains that allow them to Top while saving their Islands for ballbusting plays.

Choke doesn't do enough because they can save their mana for Entreat the Angels, or run with Karakas and Plains as much as possible. It just doesn't do enough unless you're heavy on other tax effects.

-Matt

I've been trying to find a haymaker card in the board that just wrecks UW. Speaking with UW players from my area, Choke still seems to be one of the cards they fear the most. Early game, it constrains their mana and even if they tap out to use a Jace, it significantly limits what they can do in subsequent turns (makes Counterspell/CB really difficult to cast, etc).

I've been toying around with the idea of Garruk, Primal Hunter as well.

[Barbed Blightning]

He's obviously mana intensive but if he lands vs miracles you win. What about elspeth or gideon?