Originally Posted by gypsy
Sure planeswalkers are good answers but are they strong enough? Elspeth makes a chump blocker and Tamiyo locks a permanent .. but usually they have more creatures. It slows them up but is it enough?
I'm not looking for anything with the power of (for example) Jace, TMS but do we have direct and effective choices?
I'm testing at this moment Geist of Saint Traft and Mirran Crusader and the only problem I found is actually being able to flee from the wastelands and still be able to cast them with counterspells mana available. (btw, I run 5 Islands and 2 Plains).
Anti-graveyard stops Shaman but they're still very agressive....
Discard is anoying!
Leyline of Sancity? Maybe?
Sword of Feast and Famine?
------//---------
What about Jund?
Spell Snare has been fantastic for me!
Thoughts, both? :)
from my experiences the green decks usually only have 1 threat you care about, you can usually deal with the rest of their cards with stp snapcaster etc so having a chump blocker or locking down something over and over is what actually ends up winning the game as it buys you the time to set up your other powerful cards, if multiple creatures are a problem might want to play more verdicts or paths, cant really say ive ever had trouble with these types of decks, careful play and knowing what to board out has usually been good enough for me
I actually had the same situations with verdict, in the sense that they would stay in my hands for an extended amount of time, but it ended up being useful at some point, as having one in hand somewhat lets me play geedier, I guess? So if you ask me how much I like it, I would say that it does what I want it to do in creature matchups, so I like it enough for my sideboard. As far as if it is needed, I would say I don't know. I never really got in a situation where I absolutely needed to wrath to win since I use that card, so yeah...
However, you talked about Tamyo. Have you tested with it? If yes, how was it?
Played a bunch against BUG Delver today at FnM and at Lunch earlier. Man it's a rough MU. Hymn to Tourach is such a bitch to deal with if you don't have a Spell Pierce. Resolved Walkers are very good, but the key is getting them to stick around for more than one turn... Also use removal wisely. You swords a couple of Goyfs and suddenly a Tombstalker is smashing your face.
won a gpt for denver today with this list
4 stoneforge mystic
4 snapcaster mage
3 clique
1 batterskull
1 jitte
4 brainstorm
4 swords to plow
1 ponder
1 top
1 counterspell
2 spell snare
2 spell pierce
4 force of will
2 explosives
1 moorland haunt
1 karakas
1 academy ruins
1 riptide lab
1 plains
4 island
4 flooded strand
4 scalding tarn
1 arid mesa
4 tundra
1 volcanic island
sb
2 path to exile
2 timely reinforcements
1 venser, shaper savant
1 sphinxs revelation
1 tamiyo
3 red blast
1 mountain
2 flusterstorm
1 disenchant
1 sword of war and peace
no idea if tamiyo or sphinxs revelation are good, no one was playing the decks i wanted to try them out in, i think the tamiyo is good, not sure on the revelation.
rest of the deck was solid, would probably add back some graveyard hate for the gp not sure what i would cut though
Revelation doesnt seem very good sadly... Tamiyo though doesnt seem too bad.
Guys, quick question: why does everyone play Esper Stoneblade and no more UW or BW? What are the strengths and weaknesses of each variant?
Playing black and blue gives you options for discards, counterspells, snapcasters and Jace TMS. Discards are often good early against decks of all format, especially control and combo. Even discarding a goyf and knight doesnt seem all that bad. Dont think I need to explain how good Jace, TMS is. With it, esper stoneblade can afford to go into grindy games with other control decks such as miracles or BUG control. Pure BW stoneblade will lose out in that aspect i feel. Counterspells are for added game against combo, snapcasters are just card advantage engines.
An extra colour allows us to play our engineerd explosives more effectively as well, being able to destroy permanents up to 3. Knights, cliques, liliana, etc
Plus extra colours means more splash-able sideboard cards likes cabal therapy(works very well with lingering souls), perish/darkblast.
I find the main reason people like esper is because it is more forgiving due to having cards that I feel are training wheels like lingering souls that while they are good are completely unnecessary if you are a good player, and having access to discard and a lot of players like being more proactive with discard because it is easier than playing reactive with more counters which i find easier personally.
both decks are able to grind out other decks, i actually find its easier with UW due discard being really bad in topdeck wars whereas counterspells actually do something sometimes. explosives for 3 isnt that big a deal and you should always have an extra dual for something in the sideboard anyway to help out with explosives even if u are only on UW just in case (playing underground just for surgical etc).
but in the end to me its all personal preference, if you feel comfortable and that you think you need the discard play esper. if you are like me and like playing more reactive counterspells and more consistent mana, play UW (or with minor splashes)
So in no way would you play BW? I mean your arguments seem good but I'm pretty sure the guys winning tournaments are good too, I suppose they would rather play the most effective deck possible regardless of making mistakes, them being confidant enough. I mean... is that all? Preferences!? That would mean every top placers prefers Esper to UW in tournaments?
BW is a completely different deck and I wouldn't compare it to Esper or UW as they are trying to do different things even though a lot of the cards played are similar in each decks.
Not just preference but also a lot of players see esperblade doing well so they just copy esper blade, whereas no one really plays UW so they don't see it have high finishes and just assume its not good without actually knowing just because esper is played more than UW. Also a lot of players just go by what they see as results and dont go beyond that so they assume that if you just want to play UW that Miracle Control is the default deck and they subconsciously associate Stoneblade with Esper since it is widely more played and UW with Miracles.
I am not saying Esper is bad, just saying I prefer UW because I prefer my opponent playing into my counterspells rather than playing discard into my opponent and I don't feel like Lingering Souls is worth playing (not that it is wrong to do so, just how I felt playing the deck, obviously the card is very good and can and will win games for you).
There are no real optimal choices in deck building in general, if there was the game would be boring as everyone would have the same 75. Most choices come down to personal preference and playstyle and you should test things out and play what you feel gives you the best chance. I have played decks where players who are better than me swore by a 4 of while I played 0 copies because I didn't like the card because it didn't do enough for me when I played the deck and if I could do it over again I would make exactly the same choice because playing a deck with cards you dislike and think are bad is miserable, do not assume every choice you see in top results is correct just because they are winning, if you feel like a card does not belong then feel free to change it.
One of the advantages of playing esper is that Lingering Souls is one of the best cards in the StoneBlade mirror.
Where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence.
~ Mohandas Gandhi
Did you actualy win it? I thought we drew for first place and split the prizes. I don't really know what went down though, I don't pay much attention to these details or how tournaments are conducted in general.
As for our matches in the swiss rounds, what did you think of Deathrite Shaman?
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
well i won the byes which is all i was playing for lol.
deathrite is obviously a really good card, not sure how much i like it in the deck as i dont think it fits what the deck is trying to do for the most part, though due to the card being so strong its hard to say it is wrong to play it.
The card is great, but not in this deck. Deathrite Shaman adds little value to our gameplan, which (I think) is taking control of the game and playing+protecting Jace/Batterskull.
The value Deathrite Shaman adds in this deck's strategy would be a few, most notably the mana-producing-part:
Because of DS's first ability your gameplan is sped up. The problem with this is that in order to play DS, you'll have to play a more fragile mana-base which makes you more vulnerable against Wasteland. And Wasteland slows down your gameplan.
Also, by dropping DS early game instead of discard, you take less control of the game.
Esper or UW
The reason people play Esper is (imho) because Esper really feels like the more powerful deck. Discard gives the pilot a lot of information. Really valuable information because you're playing a controldeck. With acces to bombs like Lingering Souls, Vindicate and really powerful sideboardcards players are lured towards the Esper variant.
Next to that, I believe normal UW is the more consistent of the two. The main reason I play it is because I deeply and sincerely LOVE rock-solid manabases. Next to that I don't like discard in this deck because of the late-game-mehh-'ness.
As a former Goblin player, playing both Wasteland and Rishadan Port, I noticed a lot of Legacy-players are really bad at constructing a solid mana-base for their decks. A lot of mana-bases are really greedy and contain cards that are only really useful in very rare situations . People get over the top with adding non-basic lands, to the point people only play non-basics. With some decks (like Tempo-decks) it isn't a problem and those kind of decks are usually happy when the opponent gives up tempo by using Wasteland.
So the question is; How do you play your deck? What is your playstyle? Do you play Stoneblade as a tempo-like deck, or do you play it as a control deck? And are you concious about the way you 'auto-pilot'-play your deck?
My personal answer is I see it as a control-deck. I like to put my opponent under pressure, but for me it's more important to take control of the game.
As I'm playing a control deck I want to put my lands into play and reach 4+ mana as soon as possible, so I need to be wasteland-proof and play a lot of lands. When choosing the amount of lands I often raise my chosen amount by 1. Like, when I think the deck would work great with 22 lands, 2 ponder taken into account, I end up playing 23. This was a tip I read in an article a year ago and has been making my deck more reliable ever since.
Next to that, while constructing a mana-base I didn't just had to ask myself ìf I hated Wasteland, but how much I hated the card. Some people think playing up to 5 non-basic lands (considering 22 lands total) is 'Wasteland-proof', but for me 3/23 non-basics is the limit.
Couple of notes on Lingering Souls;
The card can be seen as 'training wheels' and think it's not necessary if you reached a certain level of playskill. I think the 3 mana sorcery is a bit clunky. Others see Lingering souls as a card-advantage machine, wincondition (with or without equipment) ànd jace-protection in one single card.
Great players like Shaheen Soorani preach that Lingering Souls is the best card in the deck and you shouldn't cut it. Instead of immediately shouting he's wrong, I think we should be curious why he says this is the best card in the deck.
~Tom
The versatility of Lingering Souls is what makes it so powerful. It has the ability to hold off an opposing threat when you are on the defensive, and the ability to provide substantial pressure when you are on the offensive.
Here’s how I look at it:
Upsides:
Defensive Capabilities: Provides up to 4 blocks, with the potential to gain advantage in the process (through gangblocking, aka 2 spirits block Delver, and 2 Spirits remain).
Offensive Capabilities: Applies varied pressure with evasion. Has the ability to deal with planeswalkers quickly. In tandem with Stoneforge and Umezawa’s Jitte/Sword of X+Y, it can quickly dominate a board.
Resilient against board/spot removal: Can be played to survive Wrath effects with flashback. With equipment, it can force your opponent to use spot removal to prevent counters on Jitte or the effect of a Sword of X+Y.
Resilient against counter magic: The ability to flashback the spell gives you card advantage when countered (IE: 2 counters are required to fully counter the spell, or a counter and some sort of graveyard removal effect).
Resilient versus discard: Strong versus discard magic where you can choose what you discard (Raven’s Crime, Blightning, etc, though I realize these are not played that often).
Downsides:
Sorcery Speed: Ties up mana during your turn, making it harder to keep counter mana up.
Mana investment: “Clunky.” Can be cast on turn 3 at earliest, which is usually a time that a Stoneblade deck doesn’t want to tap out. Typically isn’t cast till later.
I’m sure that doesn’t represent all of its upsides and downsides, but they certainly are some of the most important.
As a side note, Lingering Souls is also great versus the mirror. It’s easy to lose in board position if you don’t have your own LS to “counter” your opponents. It also forces the opponent to find their own or risk losing planeswalkers/board position (with Jitte in the mix). In addition, it’s also wicked with Intuition, especially if you run Engineered Explosives/Academy Ruins, Snapcaster, etc (just in general synergy).
1 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Karakas
2 Scrubland
3 Marsh Flats
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Wasteland
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Spell Pierce
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Vindicate
SB
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
3 Force of Will
3 Engineered Plague
1 Counterspell
1 Nihil Spellbomb
I tested that list today against UWr Punishing Miracles, Burn and Maverick and felt favoured in all the matches pre and postboard.
Maybe some of ou got some ideas to improve the list theoretically or by testing against some other matches. Goblins seems pretty good, maybe Hymns should be Thoughtseizes and i'd loe to fin in one more Vindicate or a Crucible of Worlds.
That list might have some problems against Bug/Canadian, though i think that could be handles quite easy.
Looking forward for feedback ^^
I don't remember where I got it exactly, it came first in a tournament in Europe couple weeks back probably a tournament in France or Spain (mana infinito). Seems suited towards a BUG meta with more removal, no discard and Baleful Strix:
1x Academy Ruins
3x Baleful Strix
1x Batterskull
4x Brainstorm
2x Engineered Explosives
4x Flooded Strand
4x Force of Will
2x Island
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3x Lingering Souls
2x Plains
4x Polluted Delta
1x Scrubland
3x Snapcaster Mage
3x Spell Pierce
4x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Supreme Verdict
1x Swamp
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Tundra
1x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Underground Sea
3x Wasteland
2x Disenchant
2x Duress
2x Flusterstorm
1x Nature's Ruin
1x Perish
3x Thoughtseize
2x Timely Reinforcements
2x Zealous Persecution
I've been testing it but it's 45-55 against the Dethrite Shaman decks and terrible against Combo decks (Pre board). I think Baleful Strix could be something interesting with Academy Ruins to hold the castle against Tombstalkers etc. but I couldn't make it work.
that list seems really random and doesn't have a solid game plan, main reason for me to play black would be discard, don;t know why you would only sb them
I think the game plan is durdle and stall the board long enough in an aggro/tempo environment for a Jace-win. At least it won something:
http://manainfinito.com/coverage/lis...2012-noviembre
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