Thanks for the reply there. Actually, I've already off'ed about everything that I was willing to let go of to get some newer stuff for a couple other decks. So I'm out of trade stock.Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Thanks for input there. How highly do you value Sigarda, Host of Herons and Baneslayer Angel as cards I should focus on before Tops?
Here is that list I said I'd post:
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate (I have these, but no Maelstrom Pulses or Abrupt Decays. Neither seem totally out of reach)
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recerring Nightmare
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Sylvan Library (trying to make up for missing tops)
1 Sensei's Divining Top (I only have the 1)
1 Enlightened Tutor
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
2 Academy Rector
1 Grave Titan
1 Sun Titan
1 Yosei, The Morning Star
1 Kokusho, The Evening Star
1 Fierce Empath
1 Scrubland
4 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
8 Fetchlands That Get B, G or W
Again, this was made up with what I own. See previous post regarding my budget situation. I have 3 Natural Order and 4 Progenitus, so the NO sideboard plan could be done too.
Currently Playing:
Dredge / Hive Mind / Belcher / Sneak-Show
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4 proggys? Trade 2 for 2 tops i say.
Yea, but I use 'em in Sneak-Show. They're anti-Karakas!
Currently Playing:
Dredge / Hive Mind / Belcher / Sneak-Show
HayWire Motorsports - Tacoma, Washington
GoFundMe
I would go for 1 Thragtusk first, then as many Tops as you need. Thrag is an important GSZ target so getting the first one multiplies. Thragtusk will also stay expensive for quite a while because it will be one of the defining T2 cards until it rotates out so waiting won't make it better.
Thragtusk is better than Finks, but for the $ you could go Finks + Sigarda (and have a little left over). Sigarda is a rock star in my estimation.
Okay, had a bit of overtime on the check this week and picked up a Thragtusk for $20 along with a $10 Baneslayer Angel.
Gonna work on Tops and a Sigarda next.
Currently Playing:
Dredge / Hive Mind / Belcher / Sneak-Show
HayWire Motorsports - Tacoma, Washington
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Nice, and considering you have Sneak and Show built (im assuming by your remark) you can always use prizes from winnings to slowly gather the cards you need for Nic Fit.
Hey Yoric,
I understand you are fine with DRS stalling waiting for a Rector to be activated. I believe we all know here Nic Fit is a late gamer nuts.
The problem is that, me being your opponent and knowing what Rector does, i.e. bringing the late game you are thriving for before it should happen, I really cannot afford that. It is basically buying time hoping finding a way to handle the late game, rather than having nothing for a too-early late game.
I really do not believe activating a DRS for +2 life or -2 life on you, is worth in exchange of the Rector. And I believe that you would be actually quite happy if Rector could be activated under DRS, as much as I would.
@Arianrhod: Nice Top4 on Jupiter.
I saw your updated BGw Rector build, and was quite surprised to see neither StP nor Decay. Is this meta-dependent to you ?
Also, nice to see you back already :D, as well as Tao
Thanks =D
Not as much as you'd think. The most traditional removal that I've ever had maindeck in Rector was 1x StP, many, many moons ago. The deck runs Vindicate, Pulse, and Fetters for spot removal, and then the 3 Deeds and a Moat for sweepers. Also, Rector thrives on gunking up the board. It doesn't necessarily need to remove your Tarmogoyf, if you can't swing into me because I have a Rector sitting there being scary.
That's actually arguably the single scariest thing about Deathrite. It's not that it limits our graveyard options (though it does), or that it's a way to generate reach when we have a Moat established (although it does). It's that he removes the terror that our opponents should feel when they're staring at a Rector. Suddenly, they're not afraid to attack into it at all. -That-'s a problem.
But yeah. The maindeck has more than enough spot removal and sweepers to be okay, even though they are non-traditional in nature (StP/Decay).
As for the sideboard, I did have a 2x Abrupt Decay there for a while. However, they got dropped to make room for the NO package. If you'd like, you can slot in a pair of Abrupt Decays where the 2x Leyline of Sanctitys are, but I think that I like Leyline better because it's a bit more flexible, and it provides another layer of lock against combo. While they try to find an answer to the Leyline, it gives you more time to establish Nether Void for the win. Abrupt Decay does nothing against combo. Obviously it has its own strengths as well, but I'm inclined to say that Rector, at least, is okay without it.
Note: if you're looking at a GBW deck that does -not- run Rector, then you definitely want StP and Decay somewhere. I'm not an expert of the "rock" sub-archetype, though, so I can't say how many of what there. But it basically comes down to space. Rector runs the Rector package and attending enchantments, Rock runs spot removal in those slots instead. Just a matter of what you want to do.
@Tim -- Sigarda should be your next acquisition IMO. Sigarda and Thragtusk will win you a disturbing amount of games. Like, Sun Titan and Yosei are the big bombs and the horrifying hitters.....but they're usually what gets answered. They demand that the opponent has the answer, the opponent uses the answer, then you start dropping the 2nd-string in Baneslayer, Sigarda, and Tusk -- and they're usually out of answers at that point. I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you have Mirri's Guile laying around somewhere, if you didn't already get rid of them. Guile is a good substitute for Top while you're waiting to get them. Obviously Top is dramatically better, but IMO Guile is the best of the "other" candidates, probably followed by Sylvan.
Also, you'll notice an immediate difference in the deck once you get the 5-drops. 5 is a "magic number" for Nic Fit, because if you lead land->Explorer, pass, Phy Tower, sac, you have 5 mana on turn 2.
Likewise, you should try to get at least one of the Sakura-Tribe Elders soon, because 3 is another magic number. Land->Therapy, pass, Land->Explorer, flashback, gives you 3 mana available on t2, which you can use to Zenith out Sakura-Tribe (among other various and diverse lines). IMO you want to flesh out the GSZ options, get the bombs and the win conditions set up so that you have the power, then start adding in the stuff that makes it more consistent.
Arianrhod, what the point to board in one innocent blood vs Junk with ScapeWish? Is it better than leave it for wish?
I was wondering the same thing, and why you put the therapy in the SB? Ive always considered having one SB cause of burning wish, but I am wondering when it is a good idea to move it to the SB?
I havent been to mythic or jupiter lately cause ive just been too busy. I hope to make it to january's though.
I gauged this based on how the pattern of the Junk matchup seemed to be going. The Junk player would drop some shit, I'd kill it, he'd drop some more shit, I'd kill it, he'd kill my shit, and then he'd drop a solitary remaining threat. I figured that this would give me time to find the Blood maindeck, since I'd likely have a Top chugging away. Also, keep in mind that, thanks to Bob, we often have information about what's in our opponent's hand. This makes having a Therapy in the board a very attractive option. I would also not board in the Blood without boarding out a Therapy -- you always want to have a 1cmc way to sacrifice a Veteran Explorer as a Wish target.
The ideal situation here was the opportunity that I missed vs the first Junk player (the one I lost to). If I'd remembered to Wish for the Therapy, I could have made him discard his hand (I know both of the cards in it), ramping out of my mana screw in the process, and blowing up his board. Then I would have been able to stabilize easily, and take that game.
Burning Wish in general is weird in the Junk matchup. You don't want to Wish for something that you can't use the same turn, because your Wish target will just get discarded. At the same time, you don't really want to hold on to Wishes, because then they'll get discarded and, worst-case scenario, Extirpated.
The best way to think about Burning Wish in general is that you want variable cards in specific roles. In general, the slots are:
[Catch-all Answer]
[Catch-all Sweeper]
[Fast/Small Sweeper]
[1-cmc Explorer removal]
[3rd Scapeshift]
[Land destruction]
[Teeg Removal]
Those 7 are fixed slots. What card occupies those slots is variable. So for example, the 1-cmc Explorer Removal slot can be the default Innocent Blood, or you can put the Blood maindeck and board out a Therapy to occupy that slot. I feel that in the Junk matchup, having a Therapy accessible via Wish is more useful than having the Blood accessible via Wish. Blood's better maindeck, and smart Junk players (like JC) will Extirpate Cabal Therapy ASAP. Therapy is actually one of those secret little chinks in our armor, so to speak. If you can get rid of the Therapies, that hurts Nic Fit like hell. I mean, it's obviously recoverable, and I'm torn as to whether it's wise to board in Surgical/Pate vs non-Rector Nic Fit in general, from the opposition point of view. Like in g3 vs JC, sure, he Extirpated three of my core cards (Therapy, Wish, Deed), but those Extirpates could have been business spells instead -- more threats or removal. It sucked, and it hurt, but then he didn't have the resources left to deal with my beatdown plan. But yeah. Protecting a Therapy is probably a good idea in the matchup. I also like to board out a Therapy against the various flavors of Stoneblade, for the same general reason -- they like to Surgical/Extirpate Therapy, -and- you want a Therapy accessible via Wish because Stoneforge gives you information, and that way you have a Therapy available on-demand in the midgame, where you'll have likely used any earlier copies to hit Jace, Force, Brainstorm, Clique, etc.
That all make sense?
Ok, thanks for the input there. I'm pretty sure I saw some Guiles in my box of cards so I'll have to dig through there again. I also have the Tribe-Elders already from when I managed to aquire a collection from a friend so I'll dig them out too. Guess I need to take a closer look at your list, looks like this might be a big rebuild of mine.
Again, thanks for the input. Seems like the help in this thread is a lot more friendly than several of the others.
Currently Playing:
Dredge / Hive Mind / Belcher / Sneak-Show
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/trolololl onSeems like the help in this thread is a lot more friendly than several of the others.
Haven't read other threads, but NicFit is funnier than it is stronger in people's mind.
Hence all friendly people play and talk about Nic Fit, the others go play pro/competitive/DTB/tiers 1(whatever it means).decks :p
/trolololl off
@Arianrhod: Thx for your feedback, and also I like a lot the Cabal sideout tech, that is really a nice feature with B.Wishes.
Meh. And then we beat up on the pro/competitive/DTB/tier 1 decks. The only thing that stops Nic Fit from being competitive at a high level of play is the skill of those who pilot it. I've said that for a long ass time now (while I've been topping events left and right). Too many people pick it up because they think it looks fun, or because they have standard cards and they want to break into legacy. Then they start playing it, and they lose with it. Hard. I've said that all along, too. If you're not prepared to lose with this deck for a few months while you learn its ins and outs, don't bother. But yeah. People pick it up, and they suck with it. That puts the idea into other peoples' heads that the deck is bad, and then that "bad deck is bad" notion sticks with them, so the deck as a whole gets looked down upon, when it's really not the deck's fault at all.
Hell, if you watched those videos from SCG the other day, Brad Nelson picked up the deck, had NO IDEA what the cards did (thought Veteran put lands into play tapped, for fucks' sake), and STILL beat Todd Anderson on BUG Control something like 4-2.
I know we recently lost Megadeus to Stoneblade, and Claymore to Rock, which is a shame. But yeah. I do my best to answer any and all questions that are posed to me in this thread, in the hopes that people other than myself and Qweerios can start actually doing well with the deck and making it respected. I've had a lot of people tell me, to my face, that I'm the only Nic Fit that they've encountered that they respect. And I think that a lot of that comes from the fact that I've been both playing the deck for a year and a half now, and that I've been steeped in the theory of the deck (and, indeed, of the format) for the whole time, since I've been one of the driving forces in the thread. Nic Fit is, in my opinion, a very theoretically-grounded deck. It plays so many weird cards and adopts so many odd lines of play that it can't be anything but. It's not like Stoneblade where your decision tree is literally "Do I have Stoneforge? If yes, I win. If no, I lose. If yes and they kill it, I lose. If yes and I protect, I win." You have to understand the WHY of the obscure, strange card choices. If you don't, you'll never be able to make a proper sideboard, you won't know how to sideboard what and when, and you won't know what lines of play to adopt when.
The other issue with Nic Fit IMO is that it's a Therapy deck at its core. Therapy is one of the single hardest cards to play in the format, and I think that it's actually used most fully in Nic Fit, although Hollywood would probably smack me for saying that. Something like Dredge (including Manaless), generally only uses Therapy as anti-hate option. They think, okay, what hate does this guy have, or, okay, how does my opponent win the game right now, before I kill him? And then they base their line off of that. In Nic Fit, we're actively using Therapy to shape the entire flow of the game, because our game LASTS more than 3 turns (ideally). Dredge cares about the "now." We care about both the "now" AND the "then." Skillful Therapy is critical to Nic Fit, and being able to play Therapy, by its very nature, is something that takes a lot of time, practice, and groundwork in the history of and trends happening within the metagame as a whole. Most people don't have the time, energy, drive, or intellect to master Therapy the way as is needed to play Nic Fit effectively.
Furthermore, again (as with all of this, this is purely my opinion), the smarter you are, the friendlier you tend to be when dealing with equals. I will be the absolute first to admit that I can be a haughty, self-righteous, arrogant prick. I have an ego the size of Alaska, and I'm not afraid to demonstrate that in public, which can occasionally be problematic (to say nothing of embarrassing). But, due to the nature of Nic Fit, I think that this thread attracts people like me. We are, in many ways, the elite of the format. And elite are nothing if not courteous to their own. For example, I will bend over backwards to help those who I perceive as my equals, and those who I can see are trying their hardest. I think that has a LOT to do with the friendly atmosphere in this thread, honestly.
We're the best. We know it. We just have to make the rest of the world understand it, and that's not something that any one of us is going to do alone =)
sup bro ! :D
i was just trolling there, but indeed I believe Nic Fit is fairly competitive vs the "DTB", except combo. But you can't have a deck having good MU vs everyone else.
It rapes RUG and Aggro more generally, it is good vs Esperblade, it can be good vs control with PW.
I mean it is fairly polyvalent.
But sure it takes some skill to push it forward Tops4/8
Let's keep working on that :D
Qweerios commented the other day about a Collective Blessing/Tokens build. It's something that occurred to me after I cracked a Blessing at my prerelease and promptly forgot about, but I've now put together a rough draft. The basic idea is to power out a giant trampler. Humility goes great w/ Blessing and Treetop Village. (Yay layers! For those who don't know: 7B sets creatures to 1/1s w/ Humility then 7C gives them +3/+3 from Collective Blessing. In the case of Village, you'll go w/ timestamp order, so you'll have yourself a couple 3/3 tramplers even w/ Humility on the board.) There's probably a few questionable choices here (Enlightened Tutor especially) but it looks fun.
3 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Marsh Flats
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
2 Treetop Village
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Windswept Heath
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Enlightened Tutor
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Lingering Souls
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Humility
2 Collective Blessing
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Academy Rector
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Wolfir Silverheart
1 Armada Wurm
1 Primeval Titan
2 Sensei's Divining Top
O___O
That list is sexy. The only thing I'll say is that it (and every deck everywhere ever for that matter) needs more Garruk Relentless. Absurd card is absurd.
I still check in :P. My biggest gripe was that the deck could be extremely inconsistent, as it nearly requires an early Explorer, and if you don't get one off soon enough then you're left playing a high CC deck with minimal acceleration. Getting a hand along the lines of 2-3 lands, Pulse, Sigarda, Rector, Witness felt pretty common so I had to mull fairly aggressively to find the narrow band of hands that were keepable. It also seemed difficult to shove hate into the deck due to the size and required balance of the synergy engine and kill packages so it seemed limited in how to fight against the bad matchups...namely combo. You also had to rely very heavily on Deed in most matches since you give up larger single target removal packages in place of sweepers like Deed and Pulse, so not finding a Deed with your mana already established was frequently death - which, along with inconsistency of opening hands, ended another tournament.
The inconsistency also got piled on with the high late-game complexity of the deck when you're facing long tournaments and grinding matches. The game that finally make me switch was top 4 game 3 against Bant, facing down Elspeth at 7 loyalty, Jace brainstorming like mad, a bunch of tokens, a large Knight and I think Hierarchs against my very small board. I top decked a Rector and had a sac outlet to lead into many lines of play to extend the game, but ended up choosing wrongly due to fatigue and died a few turns later.
Then you have Deathrite Shaman and Rest in Peace...could get nasty.
I've actually thought about brewing up something using Grisly Salvage, which would almost certainly get you a Cabal Therapy in the yard and find either Rector or Explorer since you have the top 13 cards of the deck to look at now (considering it played turn 2) along with DRS as an additional accelerant...but I also just wanted a break from Nic Fit after the 10 months or so of playing it to get an alternative deck :P.
I'd love to build Scapefit though, it seems incredibly solid.
Fair enough, I suppose. I will note that I actually keep a lot of hands without Explorer, and they work out okay. There's a lot of factors involved, of course.
Also, for anyone who is interested in Korean Explorers, SCG actually has 3 in stock currently. 1 is NM, 2 are SP. Here's the link: http://sales.starcitygames.com/searc...91;1]=1&auto=Y
Kind of annoyed that they have 3 now after it took me over a year to complete my set, but meh. Good for you guys, I guess.
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