[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

[joemauer]

If we were to always follow Bryant, there would be no discussion at all. just pages of Bryant referring to reports and lists, and followers thanking him for it. Not that I don't value his remarks - I too think he is usually the one to listen to if it comes to TES - but a forum is meant for discussions, not just for being a broadcast tool for one expert.

Let me put in a new question: am I really the only one who tunes his decks to his own abilities?

Batting new ideas around is how TES keeps evolving, albeit some ideas are over top ridiculous. People here( mtgthesource) don't seem to like new stuff much. There is a Spike player mindset for most people on these forums that want to use the most proven(or successful) formula. Don't expect people here to be receptive of your new ideas ever.

All that being said, I feel like 12 lands is the correct number at the moment. It has been working for me. I could see perhaps a Tropical Island in the sideboard.

Like Clown of Tresserhorn alluded at, the maindeck seems great at the moment;however the sideboard still seems to be in need of tweaking.

[Megadeus]

Tested earlier against BUG Delver. Man this is a tough MU. Of course this was also my first time playing the deck live against an opponent. G2 I think I messed up a bit only storming for 10 Gobbos on T2 when I think I couldve made 14. I wouldve won if I had playied it right. I think I lost the first 5 in a row, then I learned what hands are good and bad. I then Won on T1 and 2 respectively the final 2 games we played. I think my big issue is that I was playing it more of how ANT should be played out. Once I realized that it is okay to just shit out Goblins early and win off of them I got a lot better at my lines. I look forward to my first tourney soon. The only thing I have found is that It gets awkward sometimes with Chrome Mox. Sometimes I dont want to exile a red or black card and end up exiling a Silence or Ponder or something. Does this happen a lot to you guys or am I doing something wrong?

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Tested earlier against BUG Delver. Man this is a tough MU. Of course this was also my first time playing the deck live against an opponent. G2 I think I messed up a bit only storming for 10 Gobbos on T2 when I think I couldve made 14. I wouldve won if I had playied it right. I think I lost the first 5 in a row, then I learned what hands are good and bad. I then Won on T1 and 2 respectively the final 2 games we played. I think my big issue is that I was playing it more of how ANT should be played out. Once I realized that it is okay to just shit out Goblins early and win off of them I got a lot better at my lines. I look forward to my first tourney soon. The only thing I have found is that It gets awkward sometimes with Chrome Mox. Sometimes I dont want to exile a red or black card and end up exiling a Silence or Ponder or something. Does this happen a lot to you guys or am I doing something wrong?

Against BUG Delver, you have to use your cantrips correctly. Basically it involves planning ahead.

[Megadeus]

I tried. I was a bit too worried about his counters. Also Is it right to bait counters? I played Silence on T2 against my opponent after I probed him and Saw Force + Daze just to bait a counter to go off next turn, but he didnt counter it and I got super confused. He Jedi Mind tricked me!

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Sometimes you have to make them have it. I rarely bait counters. Generally it's synonymous for trying to get hellbent. If my hand's clogged with chant effects or extra tutors, then sure I'll run them out. If they resolve, cool. If not, oh well.

[Lemnear]

I'm not about to do anything. Bahamuth suggested I could try -1 Wish. I responded by saying we could try -1 Infernal instead, adding it to the sideboard. Just an idea. And no card is ever sacred in discussion. If you think Infernal is sacred, don;t join the discussion. I've heard enough people wine about how bad an idea it is to cut it, without daring to really try it.

He didn't, really. He said 'I could say...'. And he agrees with me about the 13 lands.

Anyway, once you have finally learned how to read, you might notice I just decided on cutting either a Ponder or a Probe.

You've thrown Infernal, Probe and Ponder into the ring. People responded with their thoughts while most of those topics are already handled in the wake of the last 60 pages. Some cards ARE sacred. Would you join a Vintage Discussion and bring up the topic to cut Black Lotus from decks and really expect serious responses to that? Your only argument for cutting an Infernal was the possibility of Wish into Infernal into Ad Nauseam which is hilarious expensive at first compared with wishing for Diminishing Returns and second, removes biz from your maindeck. I once tested a grim in SB long ago and it was a complete waste. Imo there is no need to repeat a lackluster idea once more.

Bahamut DID gave evidence, unless you question reason via calculation.

And after I have to realize that you are NOT looking for suggestions but for agreement and flaming I'll let you continue to throw around cards for cut. Why not "dare to try" to cut LED's and Dark Rituals next if there are no holy cow's? ;)

[Bahamuth]

Bahamut DID gave evidence, unless you question reason via calculation.

You misquote me. I never gave evidence to back up playing 13 land. My point has been for a while that, while doing math might give certain insights, it will not help you to decide on configurations. I'll explain myself in the 12 vs 13 land debate.


Let's look at the percentages again:
12 Land:
0: 0.19
1: 0.38
2: 0.29
3+ 0.14

13 land:
0: 0.16
1: 0.36
2: 0.31
3+: 0.17

I think we can agree that hands with either 1 or 2 lands are preferrable. We can see that 12 and 13 land have the same added probability of drawing either 1 or 2 land. The differences lie elsewere. They are:
- 3% difference in drawing 0 land
- 3% difference in drawing 3+ land
- Different distribution along 1 or 2 land

So now, if we based ourselves on this math, we would still have to make a judgement which of the 2 sets of percentages we like more. In fact, based on the 3 points I just made, we have to make a decision. The problem here, is that it is unclear which of these differences is the most/least important. Do we want to take a 3% probability of drawing 3+ land and a slightly different distribution of 1vs2 lands, to reduce the probability of 0 land by 3%? I don't know. There are hands that are fine with 0 land. There are also hands that are fine with 3+ land. And I wouldn't even know if the deck wants 1 or 2 land hands more, and I've played it quite a lot. You can't judge based on math.

I choose to run 13 land because it feels like it's more stable. I have no actual arguments to back that up, but then again, no one here has.

I disagree with cutting IT before Wish (obviously). I think IT is way superior, and I don't even think I would run an IT SB if I could.

[Asthereal]

Your only argument for cutting an Infernal was the possibility of Wish into Infernal into Ad Nauseam

The reasons I gave were:
- the option of tutor-chaining from Wish.
- the fact that Wish serves more purposes than Infernal.
And I never said it was correct. Just that, if one were to cut a business spell anyway, it was worth looking in to.

My comment, though rather bluntly put, still stands: please start to read posts before responding to them.

[Pelikanudo]

You misquote me. I never gave evidence to back up playing 13 land. My point has been for a while that, while doing math might give certain insights, it will not help you to decide on configurations. I'll explain myself in the 12 vs 13 land debate.


Let's look at the percentages again:
12 Land:
0: 0.19
1: 0.38
2: 0.29
3+ 0.14

13 land:
0: 0.16
1: 0.36
2: 0.31
3+: 0.17

I think we can agree that hands with either 1 or 2 lands are preferrable. We can see that 12 and 13 land have the same added probability of drawing either 1 or 2 land. The differences lie elsewere. They are:
- 3% difference in drawing 0 land
- 3% difference in drawing 3+ land
- Different distribution along 1 or 2 land

So now, if we based ourselves on this math, we would still have to make a judgement which of the 2 sets of percentages we like more. In fact, based on the 3 points I just made, we have to make a decision. The problem here, is that it is unclear which of these differences is the most/least important. Do we want to take a 3% probability of drawing 3+ land and a slightly different distribution of 1vs2 lands, to reduce the probability of 0 land by 3%? I don't know. There are hands that are fine with 0 land. There are also hands that are fine with 3+ land. And I wouldn't even know if the deck wants 1 or 2 land hands more, and I've played it quite a lot. You can't judge based on math.

I choose to run 13 land because it feels like it's more stable. I have no actual arguments to back that up, but then again, no one here has.

I disagree with cutting IT before Wish (obviously). I think IT is way superior, and I don't even think I would run an IT SB if I could.

I think cutting Empty the warrens and No Main WinCon is the way, instead of 4th B.Wish. AND letting 2 E.Warrens in Side. (for the 3rd land)

I just think as Emidlin regarding Empty Base and I cannot change my mind regarding this, it is a meta call!

Also and having in mind that you can win with NO Tendrils Base, you can win also with NO Empty Base, if the goal is to support a WinInATurn A.N.

What do you think?

[Koby]

What do you think?

How do you win if you can only produce 6 mana before you cast a tutor?

[Asthereal]

Team Nijmegen Tendrils worked under the same principle, I believe.
Cut all the bad cards, and just Wish for the winners. I think it could work.

If you have 6 mana before an Infernal, you cannot win with that list.
That's a disadvantage, but then again every choice you make has pro's and con's.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

About having no main deck win:

Sure it's cool, and I love it to death, but it's too cute. The games you win with Empty outweigh the benefit of having the sickest Ad Naueams ever.

[Megadeus]

Just was watching one of the Twitch streamed games. Heard this exchange after the match that always somewhat frustrates me:

TES player: "Good Games"
Stoneblade: "Not really bud"

Ugh why do people have to be so salty? Have you guys found that this happens a lot? I understand the frustration of losing to combo, but they weren't horrible games... Its not like TES guy went off on T1 both games. Game 2 they had a decent exchange.

Also saw that the stoneblade guy surgical extracted the TES players Rite of Flames when could have opted for LED. I doubt that was the correct choice.

Also to Bryant: This Primer is pretty amazing. And the fact that it is kept up to date so well is impressive. I have probably read every single link so far that are recent and they have been great help to learning this deck. thanks man!

[Bryant Cook]

Where is this video? Link?

[Megadeus]

Si Ning Li vs Hank Mead

http://www.twitch.tv/jupitergames/c/1783283

It's one of the Jupiter Games.

Edit: The sound was pretty terrible in that it kept cutting out, but Im pretty sure I heard the exchange correctly.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

TES player: "Good Games"
Stoneblade: "Not really bud"

Good storm players like buffalo chicken, baseball and have huge egos.

Therefore, I'm not that great.

[HoneyT]

Good storm players like buffalo chicken, baseball and have huge egos.

Therefore, I'm not that great.

Ain't that the truth!

[thefringthing]

Aww man. I like red meat, can't stand watching sports, and decided sometime after high school that having a big ego to feed is lame. Guess I'll have to shuffle up some basic Forests or something.

That table of probabilities on the 12 vs 13 land question is pretty interesting, if inconclusive. My intuitive feeling is that you lose more manascrewed games than manaflooded games, so I'm inclined to stick with the fourth fetchland. Part of that might be my reluctance to cast Brainstorm without a shuffle effect handy. I've noticed that Bryant is pretty willing to just raw dog turn one mainphase Brainstorms with no shuffle, which I don't really have the stomach for. Missing on that LED or fetchland or whatever it was you needed and letting your opponent take two extra turns is pretty rough. Maybe I'm just a coward, though.

[Pelikanudo]

How do you win if you can only produce 6 mana before you cast a tutor?

Well,

assuming you do not play Tendrils Main, you are in the same position as you will need to pass the turn as you will generate a Letal Empty Token but they do not have haste, so the important issue is that you do not play Tendrils Main therefore you will need always more than 6 mana to win with a letal Tendrils unless you draw B.Wish
This is the first point.

You need therefore 8 mana to win with Tendrils If you do not draw Burning Wish, If you Do draw B.Wish you only need 6 Mana.
This is the second Point.

So we are assuming we'll draw a good amount of cards and among these cards you will be able to cast Burning (6 mana) Or I. tutor (8 mana) For this second scenario you Need LED and this assumes that you need to take out your hand as you'll need a great amount of cards to win the game, But at this point (the problematic), I believe, and in here I'll need Bahamuts Opinions, that the statistics once you draw I.T. AND LED are very favourable so I can assume that you will draw enough cards to generate 8 mana.

Anyways, as I said playing No Tendrils Main and Playing Empty instead you 're in a position in which with only 6 mana you need to draw B.Wish to win in the same turn ou cast A.N.

And again, anyways I play TEndrils Main instead Empty to exactly avoid these , Small I think , scenarios to win with only 6 mana regardless you draw I.T OR B.W.

Bahamut?

[Endure2004]

That was me in the video against hank. He didn't really mean anything by it, he wasn't being unfriendly or anything and he indeed drew rather poorly. I found him pretty friendly, in fact. He admitted that he hadn't played the matchup all that much and extracted the rites because he thought it would take out a past in flames kill. Fortunately, it allowed me to just tutor chain him. If he had aimed it at LED he would've stripped one from my hand, which would've been crippling, but I was so used to saving LEDs for last because of disenchant effects that I usually hold them until right before the tutor. In regards to him drawing poorly though, most people do, when half their decks are irrelevant.

Also, I am in favor for ETW main instead of the 13th land. I haven't lost to wasteland in a long time, you just have to make sure not to board out cantrips against stifle / waste decks. ETW is so solid against a lot of decks, and it's the main kill condition against blue tempo decks. Drawing the one copy naturally almost always = GG against RUG delver. Being a turn faster when you have infernal in hand matters when decks are trying to stick Thalia or hymn to beat you. ETW and 4x probe are far too good to cut. The ad nauseum percentage changes are very, very small and nothing to cry about. Learn how to use all of your different storm engines and know when to empty! This will help you win more games then changing back to tendrils main.