All B/R update speculation.

[Mr. Safety]

I think these are a couple of fair, and safe, comments:

1) Black Vise would be really good. It makes fringe playable cards like Kuldotha Rebirth and Shrapnel Blast good. A turn 1 Rite of flame into double Vise is scary good (but not really broken.) Giving aggro decks like Zoo or Sligh/Burn the ability to possibly outrace combo decks would be good for the format. Right now, sligh-style aggro isn't a contender. The lowest curve of top decks right now is RUG Delver/Tempo Threshold. They could probably use it, too...but in all liklihood, their 1-mana threats are already superior IMHO (delver, goose.)

2) Mind Twist would be good in grinding control decks that like to offset late game card advantage. I love Raven's Crime alongside Life from the Loam, but it's just not that great in most cases. It takes a long time to get it active unless you play with redundant copies (either literally or with Intuition) and that redundancy isn't usually that great. Mind Twist would fill that role in Rock/Jund/Good Stuff.dec as a 1-2 of alongside targeted discard. It would be great against most decks without being broken. I like that it's easier to pull off than Hymn with only one black mana, which I think is fairly offset by costing one more mana for the same effect. I really want to play it alongside my Deathrite Shamans, I think it would be good.

Summary: I want Black Vise and Mind Twist unbanned.

[Gheizen64]

Gimme Tolarian :x

4 Tolarian
4 LEd
4 Petal
4 Chrome mox
4 Mox opal

WEEEEEEE, deck that lose everytime you don't draw tolarian because you have a lot of 0 mana artifacts that do basically nothing, especially in multiples, or go big with Tolarian and the U spell that return all your artifact to your hand for 20 storm on T1. Money issues also. And i'd love to play it in stax variants.

Vise wouldn't do anything, as Twist. Dragon could be, but it's a combo card. It's however answered by many colors, so it's more acceptable. Skullclamp? Maverick too good. Survival ? Again Maverick gg. Recruiter? Not really broken, more annoying as shit if you have to stack your deck 1 hour zzz. MM? Everything would play this and would slow the format a lot, meaning again Hivemind as best deck. Earthcraft? Oh another that wouldn't do anything. Hermit? Too good and compact. Frantic Search? Why would i want to help combo again? I don't want more blue zzz. Windfall? Seems better in an all in strategy, worse than existing engine in a more standard compact engine. Would probably see 0 play. Library would be an interesting card, but it's too expensive. Same can be said of imperial seal. Vault is interesting, but probably too good for Storm decks as it make T2 wins so much easier. It's a colorless dark ritual at worst. Pretty good if u ask me.

[Zilla]

Just quoting the stuff where I disagree...
Aside from the "not fun" part while watching an opponent stack their decks for like 5 minutes this also has this written over it: 1R: I win against any sort of control decks.
After resolving a recruiter you can just slam goblin after goblin on the board which needs to be handled...and in the case of Miracles that's not even possible. If they Terminus away your Goblins you just play the next recruiter and play them again...not cool from the point of view of a control player.
Biggest problem Goblins have right now is their combo matchup, control is decent to good as it is.

This isn't actually true. When Goblin Recruiter was legal in this format (when it was still 1.5), Landstill was one of its most difficult matchups. If Landstill can counter Food Chain, it's not particularly difficult for it to control the board until inevitability kicks in.

Also, Recruiter can be an incredibly risky proposition against Food Chain, because it forces you to go all in on whatever plan seems best when you set up your stack. If control is able to disrupt the plan in any way, the Food Chain player can often end up with a stack of cards he can't play properly, and has to manually draw through the cards (often 10 or 20 cards deep) with absolutely no way to shuffle his way out of it. It's not particularly difficult for the savvy control player to do, because he can see exactly what you're putting on top of your deck.

For example, in a lot of games against Landstill, you'd want to go off as quickly as possible to prevent the control player from stabilizing or wrecking your manabase. This would often mean comboing off with only 3 mana on the table, using Food Chain to get the mana you need to cast that first Ringleader. If they hard counter that Ringleader, you're stuck with no creatures on the board, and not enough mana to hardcast another Ringleader, particularly if Landstill can follow up with a Wasteland. Now you have a library full of cards you have to manually draw through (most of which you can't cast) before you can start putting on real pressure.

I can't say for certain how the matchup would play out against modern control decks, but historically, they've done very well against Food Chain Goblins.

[Lord Seth]

First off Amon, thanks for a pretty amusing dissection. One thing I did want to respond to:

Mind's Desire

Extremely powerful but equally difficult to cast for full value. Double Blue and a 6 mana casting cost is a real killer. It is also worse than the equivaent Storm engines: Time Spiral and Ad Nasueum. It is more expensive than both and it takes many more resources to extract full value, making you even more vulnerable to disruption. I think it is a better Wish target than Diminishing Returns, at least. Verdict: Unban

I agree with this. So many of the arguments I've seen for keeping it banned seem to be little more than kneejerk reactions that are easily dismissed when you actually think about it in reality. It's laughably inferior to Time Spiral in High Tide. I'm not as experienced with Storm, but again it just seems like it's weaker than the engine they already have (Ad Nauseam).

It just keeps coming back to the point that Mind's Desire is supposed to serve as the card that lets you build up Storm, yet requires storm to be decent.

[Amon Amarth]

This isn't actually true. When Goblin Recruiter was legal in this format (when it was still 1.5), Landstill was one of its most difficult matchups. If Landstill can counter Food Chain, it's not particularly difficult for it to control the board until inevitability kicks in.

Also, Recruiter can be an incredibly risky proposition against Food Chain, because it forces you to go all in on whatever plan seems best when you set up your stack. If control is able to disrupt the plan in any way, the Food Chain player can often end up with a stack of cards he can't play properly, and has to manually draw through the cards (often 10 or 20 cards deep) with absolutely no way to shuffle his way out of it. It's not particularly difficult for the savvy control player to do, because he can see exactly what you're putting on top of your deck.

For example, in a lot of games against Landstill, you'd want to go off as quickly as possible to prevent the control player from stabilizing or wrecking your manabase. This would often mean comboing off with only 3 mana on the table, using Food Chain to get the mana you need to cast that first Ringleader. If they hard counter that Ringleader, you're stuck with no creatures on the board, and not enough mana to hardcast another Ringleader, particularly if Landstill can follow up with a Wasteland. Now you have a library full of cards you have to manually draw through (most of which you can't cast) before you can start putting on real pressure.

I can't say for certain how the matchup would play out against modern control decks, but historically, they've done very well against Food Chain Goblins.

That was a long time ago and I can't imagine it playing out anything like that today. I think if you're playing a Recruiter and there is a chance you could get disrupted, say a Wasteland on your Tundra and a Swords to Plowshares on your Warchief then you shouldn't be casting Recruiter or you're stacking it wrong. You don't always have to combo off with Food Chain every time. Hell, if the metagame is saturated with slow, Blue control decks I'm not going to even bother playing Food Chain in my maindeck. Food Chain competes for slots with Aether Vial and Vial is a shitload better versus Control decks. I'd just put the Food Chains in my sideboard for the Aggro and Combo decks. You don't have to rush out a Recruiter against these decks. They're glacially slow. Wait till you've run them out of answers then play a Recruiter. It's highly improbable Miracles ever beats a resolved Recruiter.

@Lord Seth: Thank you. I wanted something informative and funny. Well, I tried to be funny. Mind's Desire doesn't seem oppressive in the slightest. It takes too much effort to even get it to the same level as either previously mentioned Storm engines as well as it can fuck you with RNG. It's pretty tame.

@GGoober: I really like the word "fuck" if you couldn't tell. :P

I would like to see Survival and Misstep and some of the other cards listed as "Unban" or "RFI" to be unbanned and let the meta sort itself out. Myself, I like higher power metagames and wouldn't mind Legacy becoming more degenerate. That is a pipe dream of course.

[FieryBalrog]

While I would love to see Survival come off the list, you're looking at Survival all wrong. It's not just an enabler for a slow (turn 4) combo deck with Vengevines, it's a very powerful engine card. Imagine tossing it into Maverick. All of a sudden, Maverick gains a robust card advantage engine that tutors for any answer it needs, before winning with a pile of Vengevines, or putting a Knight of the Reliquary into play every turn as a backup plan vs hate.

I'm not for or against the unbanning of Survival, and I do think that Survival/Vengevine would not be overpowered these days. I was simply pointing out that Survival does more than just put Vengevines into play.

Why would this be a bad thing anyway. Is the format is really overrun by GW creature decks at the moment?

A GW deck that has some actual explosive power? Why not?

And yeah, RIP, DRS, Snapcaster mage + Extraction all make Vengevival a lot less scary nowadays.

[Greenpoe]

Why would this be a bad thing anyway. Is the format is really overrun by GW creature decks at the moment?

A GW deck that has some actual explosive power? Why not?

And yeah, RIP, DRS, Snapcaster mage + Extraction all make Vengevival a lot less scary nowadays.

I think giving Survival to Maverick would be fine. It's bad with Thalia anyway. I'm not sure they would even want it since it overlaps with GSZ anyway.

[Tainted]

I think survival in the current meta can just add some variety
- counterspell and discard still prevent it
- M pulse, decay, vindicate, disenchant can take care of it
- leyline of the void, rest in peace and various extraction effect take care of vengevine and other recursion
- It's true that is a strong reusable tutor but it's mana intensive, so no T1-2 kill

I'd love survival back because it will allow many toolbox multicolored deck, because is not limited to green creatures like gsz,and some bursty start that are still slower than a medium storm or show'n'tell-omni-whatever.deck.

Goblin recruiter it's a little harder it's true that even if you're food chain into it you have to draw the goblins but... Glimpse of Nature... and it's green like food chain, consider it. It could be nice if the goal is to speed up the meta.

[Hanni]

Why would this be a bad thing anyway. Is the format is really overrun by GW creature decks at the moment?

A GW deck that has some actual explosive power? Why not?

And yeah, RIP, DRS, Snapcaster mage + Extraction all make Vengevival a lot less scary nowadays.

Right now? No. Was there an SCG event a little while back where Maverick put 7 out of 8 players in Top 8? Yes. Was there a time when Maverick was the most dominant deck in the format? Yes. Just because Miracles came along and knocked Maverick off its high horse, doesn't mean giving it an engine like Survival is just automatically safe these days.

I think giving Survival to Maverick would be fine. It's bad with Thalia anyway. I'm not sure they would even want it since it overlaps with GSZ anyway.

It's bad with Thalia, because it will cost 2G in a deck that ramps to 2G pretty easily? lol...

And in all seriousness, you think Maverick would rather run GSZ over Survival?

[FieryBalrog]

Right now? No. Was there an SCG event a little while back where Maverick put 7 out of 8 players in Top 8? Yes. Was there a time when Maverick was the most dominant deck in the format? Yes.

You're talking about GW Survival, not Maverick, and in that case it's not Miracles which did anything, it's the banning of SotF. And as people have pointed out, the format is much different nowadays. Survival is more than safe in this environment, and might provide some much needed fresh air to the current strangle-hold brainstorm has on the format, if it didn't become just yet another brainstorm deck in the first place.

Since Brainstorm is too much of a precious babe to get banned despite bringing 7 or 8 out of every top 8 for ages, might as well encourage some other stuff, right? Or no?

[Barook]

Since Brainstorm is too much of a precious babe to get banned despite bringing 7 or 8 out of every top 8 for ages, might as well encourage some other stuff, right? Or no?

Or they could just print stuff that sees heavy maindeck play and discourages Brainstorming, just like DRS puts a damper on GY-heavy strategies.

[DragoFireheart]

Snapcaster Mage
+
Surgical Extraction

Pithing needle

Grafdigger's Cage

Abrupt Decay

Death Rite Shaman


SoTF is fine coming off the banned list.

I would like to see Survival and Misstep and

- I agree with SoTF, but LOLstep? Are you fucking kidding me?

As much as I loved MM when it was legal, that thing needs to stay banned. It would push miracle control over the top, completely shut combo out of the meta, and the meta would devolve into Miracle Control, Goblins (since they are the best deck that abuses Cavern of Souls), Abrupt Step (BUG decks w/ MM and Abrupt Decay), and anti-goblin/anti-miracle/anti-BUG decks.

[wcm8]

[cards]
As much as I loved MM when it was legal, that thing needs to stay banned. It would push miracle control over the top, completely shut combo out of the meta, and the meta would devolve into Miracle Control, Goblins (since they are the best deck that abuses Cavern of Souls), Abrupt Step (BUG decks w/ MM and Abrupt Decay), and anti-goblin/anti-miracle/anti-BUG decks.

That sounds like a fun format.

[DragoFireheart]

That sounds like a fun format.

- I hope that was sarcasm. My meter is currently being repaired.

[Amon Amarth]

Snapcaster Mage
+
Surgical Extraction

Pithing needle

Grafdigger's Cage

Abrupt Decay

Death Rite Shaman


SoTF is fine coming off the banned list.




- I agree with SoTF, but LOLstep? Are you fucking kidding me?

As much as I loved MM when it was legal, that thing needs to stay banned. It would push miracle control over the top, completely shut combo out of the meta, and the meta would devolve into Miracle Control, Goblins (since they are the best deck that abuses Cavern of Souls), Abrupt Step (BUG decks w/ MM and Abrupt Decay), and anti-goblin/anti-miracle/anti-BUG decks.

You cut off my quote. The format would look different than what you postulated.

[DragoFireheart]

You cut off my quote. The format would look different than what you postulated.

Ok, the Show and Tell decks would also abuse MM.

Did we all just forget how utterly warped the format became with Mental Misstep? FFS, it made any deck better by simply adding it.

[Amon Amarth]

Ok, the Show and Tell decks would also abuse MM.

Did we all just forget how utterly warped the format became with Mental Misstep? FFS, it made any deck better by simply adding it.

I'm not sure if you're being purposefully obtuse or not but here is the full quote:

"I would like to see Survival and Misstep and some of the other cards listed as "Unban" or "RFI" to be unbanned and let the meta sort itself out. Myself, I like higher power metagames and wouldn't mind Legacy becoming more degenerate. That is a pipe dream of course. "

The format wouldn't look anything like your describing because there are more cards than MM being unbanned in this hypothetical Legacy. In fact I never said that I think MM should be unbanned. Here is what I said:

"Mental Misstep

I think this card has been banned too recently to see it come off anytime soon. Wait a few years and let's check back. Verdict: Stay Banned"

The latter quote is apart of that big write-up a page back. I thought it would be implied that I did this with the best of intentions, setting aside personal bias. Personally, I would like to see Legacy become broken in half. Still, I don't think that is best for the format or for the game, most people don't enjoy those types of games.

[bruizar]

Problem of mental misstep is the printing of snapcaster mage. Mental misstep was fine before snapcaster, but tiago put the nail in the coffin for MM.

[DragoFireheart]

I'm not sure if you're being purposefully obtuse or not but here is the full quote:

"I would like to see Survival and Misstep and some of the other cards listed as "Unban" or "RFI" to be unbanned and let the meta sort itself out. Myself, I like higher power metagames and wouldn't mind Legacy becoming more degenerate. That is a pipe dream of course. "

The format wouldn't look anything like your describing because there are more cards than MM being unbanned in this hypothetical Legacy. In fact I never said that I think MM should be unbanned. Here is what I said:

- Anyone ever played Find Waldo before?

Also, the format would look like I suggested because MM was that degenerate. I think you are forgetting how ridiculous it was: hoping for other cards to somehow "balance" is pretty silly.

"Mental Misstep

I think this card has been banned too recently to see it come off anytime soon. Wait a few years and let's check back. Verdict: Stay Banned"

The latter quote is apart of that big write-up a page back. I thought it would be implied that I did this with the best of intentions, setting aside personal bias. Personally, I would like to see Legacy become broken in half. Still, I don't think that is best for the format or for the game, most people don't enjoy those types of games.

- You wouldn't need to unban any other card that wasn't some sort of Vintage power: just unban Mental Misstep and watch the format spiral out of control.

[emidln]

Dear Hasbro,

I promise to start buying your sealed product if you let me play with Gush and Brainstorm together as 4-ofs.

Sincerely,

Brandon