Food Chain Combo

[grokh]

I'll be testing the LDVs tonight. I cut two Ponders (down to one now) in order to squeeze them in, but the cut makes sense when I find myself saving the Ponders for late game digging anyway. I've top foured the last three tournaments I've played with my current list (sans the LDVs), so, assuming I don't have a string of bad luck tonight, I should be have a decent idea of how I feel about em.

I will tell you, though, that I am excited about the card. :) There's something fun about playing a card people have to read (Manipulate Fate, Griffin, LDV)

grokh,

Definitely go 4 Shaman, 2 Birds. Not sold on the Birds yet, but they definitely have a utility. And make sure to cut room for the Strixes. I agree that the Misdirections main a little too much, like you said, but I don't know how I feel about Coiling Oracle. I've played the card and never liked it... but your mileage may vary. You could also cut any number of Wall of Roots for some Ponders or Sylvan Library, as four is pretty heavy. I run two, but I could see running three paying off, as it's never a *bad* card, especially when prepping time and bodies for the

Hi,

I think i'll definitely go 4 Deathrite shaman + 2 Birds of paradise as you said. I'll cut the 2 Misdirection too. I'll sure cut 1 Wall of blossoms if you think 4 is really too much.

So i've got 5 free slots.

2 Shardless agent cos it seems very exciting with Lim-dul's vault for its cascades. (Can't wait for your tests results with LDV )
2 Baleful strix as you suggested !
And for the 5th slot, I thought to 1 Thragtusk for resisting better to aggro, it's a 5/3 Body, he can attack and block easily, you'll have 5 more life + a 3/3 Beast token even if you exile it with Food chain. Only bad point, he's CCM only and not for being tutored by Fierce empath

When I look at all different lists i see you're almost all playing only 4 mana dorks (for acceleration/ramp) and I play 6 or 8, do I need to cut 2 more mana dorks ?

And I can't understand why just 1 Sylvan library, in just 1 slot, your chances to get it are very small so dunno if you couldn't free 1 slot ?

[Obould]

I use only 4 mana dorks just because filtering is more important than acceleration. You don't need any acceleration if you don't have any combo cards in hand ;) Also it is better to draw a filtercard in late game than a mana dork so you would get a better change to get a card you need in that situation. In my list I have 8 turn one plays: mana dorks and ponders, but I could cut two ponders for LDV if the tests are promising. If you are using natural order in main or side it is reasonable to have more manadorks to get it online as fast as possible.

Edit: Sylvan library helps a lot in a long game and it is nice to draw almost every time. But if you draw more than one of them it is useless, so a one-off is quite good (at least it works for me). And with ponders and braisntorms it is not so rare to "find".

[grokh]

I use only 4 mana dorks just because filtering is more important than acceleration. You don't need any acceleration if you don't have any combo cards in hand ;) Also it is better to draw a filtercard in late game than a mana dork so you would get a better change to get a card you need in that situation. In my list I have 8 turn one plays: mana dorks and ponders, but I could cut two ponders for LDV if the tests are promising. If you are using natural order in main or side it is reasonable to have more manadorks to get it online as fast as possible.

Edit: Sylvan library helps a lot in a long game and it is nice to draw almost every time. But if you draw more than one of them it is useless, so a one-off is quite good (at least it works for me). And with ponders and braisntorms it is not so rare to "find".

You're using 6 mana dorks too, i count your 2 Wall of roots as a mana dork/acceleration, don't you ?

[Obould]

You're using 6 mana dorks too, i count your 2 Wall of roots as a mana dork/acceleration, don't you ?

They are defensive "enablers/acceleration" :P Usually they don't make this deck any faster but helps me be alive and are dudes to get enough mana from food chain for example mulldrifter and so on. A few times the acceleration have been nice, but usually they are only 5 thoughness defenders. Also they have been some times bad and sometimes good so I think I'll cut them for a better cards like strix, wall of blossoms or something. I count one mana little dudes that gives mana as a mana dork.

[grokh]

Hi metamet,

Some returns about my tests this afternoon :
1) 4 Deathrite shaman seems too much for me, he's too conditionnal, when I draw a non-fetch land I can't have mana, I think I'm gonna split 4 Birds of paradise + 2 Deathrite shaman.

2) The cost of Baleful strix seems problematic to me because Food chain produces X mana of any ONE color so without infinite mana I often need to exile 2 creatures for having X manas + Y manas for casting the Baleful strix.

But maybe the 2) is very linked to the 1), I don't know yet.

It would be easier if we were playing mono-colored creatures I think.

[metamet]

Went 3-0 then submitted to a friend for the last round (who was 2-1) instead of playing so we could both cash out. I ended up being the only 3-0 going into round four, which I thought was odd with a 12 man tourney. Anywho!

Played Storm the first round. Nothing terribly exciting happened. The Cabal Therapies were all stars post board, blind hitting Dark Rit one game and LED the other, then flashing back to nail a tutor.

Round two I played against UB Tezzeret. His The Abyss was annoying, but Strix gets there. Brought in Abrupt Decays and Maelstrom Pulse from the side and took out a Chalice on two with the Decay. :) I then ended up pinging him with a Strix or two under an Ensnaring Bridge. Note from this: if you're playing against an opponent who has FoW and Ensnaring Bridge and they pass keeping a card in their hand, it likely means it's a counter... so don't play anything (at least pre combat). :)

Round three I played WG hatebears. Got game one with redundancy. He hates me game two. I get there game three with beats and Wall of Blossoms on the ground.

I was able to cast LDV twice last night, simply because I only drew it twice... and I liked it. But I don't have any definitive evidence to say it's better, but it was certainly nice to get exactly what I needed end of my opponent's turn.

grokh,

Are you testing with other players? I have rarely found Shaman's requirement for a land in the GY to be a hindrance, especially when my opponent plays fetches too. The life gain and shocking it can do it phenomenal when you can't just outright win.

And don't worry about ramping through the Strix. You typically want to play it before you combo off, and if you need to cast it while chaining creatures, just leave a little excess mana open. :) Since we aren't playing Glimpse, there's rarely a shot when we just chain through without having a plan... unless we were playing Soul of the Harvest. :P (Which I don't think is worth it).

And I'd recommend Wurmcoil Engine over Thragtusk. Phenomenal card.

[grokh]

grokh,

Are you testing with other players? I have rarely found Shaman's requirement for a land in the GY to be a hindrance, especially when my opponent plays fetches too. The life gain and shocking it can do it phenomenal when you can't just outright win.

And don't worry about ramping through the Strix. You typically want to play it before you combo off, and if you need to cast it while chaining creatures, just leave a little excess mana open. :) Since we aren't playing Glimpse, there's rarely a shot when we just chain through without having a plan... unless we were playing Soul of the Harvest. :P (Which I don't think is worth it).

And I'd recommend Wurmcoil Engine over Thragtusk. Phenomenal card.

Hi,

Yep, I'm testing with other players, maybe do i often forgot I can exile their fetches too, dunno ...

Keeping mana for Baleful strix ? You mean exile some creatures for having mana ?

Why not, but lots of my creatures are or , if i don't draw Strix, it's some wasted mana ...

And I often combo off full tap with my lands

Comparing Thragtusk and Wurmcoil engine, I think Thragtusk is better, why ?
Assuming they come into play, not countered.

1) Assuming the most played removal in Legacy is Swords to plowshare :
If Thragtusk takes STP, you've already won 5 life (Come into play effect), you win 5 more life from STP and get a 3/3 Beast token => 10 life + 3/3 token
If Wurmcoil engine takes STP you win 6 life from STP, and you get nothing on board => 6 life

2) Assuming the 2nd most played removal in Legacy is Lightning bolt :
If Thragtusk takes Bolt, you've already won 5 life (Come into play effect), and you get a 3/3 Beast token => 5 life + 3/3 token
If Wurmcoil engine takes Bolt, nothing happens. => Nothing

3) 3rd possibility, sacrifice effect, like Liliana of the veil for example :
If Thragtusk get sacrificied, you've already won 5 life (Come into play effect), and you get a 3/3 Beast token => 5 life + 3/3 Token
If Wurmcoil engine get sacrificied, you'll get a 3/3 Deathtouch + a 3/3 Lifelink => 3/3 Deathtouch + 3/3 Lifelink

To resume, whatever how Thragtusk is removed, you 100% sure get 5 life + 3/3 Beast token, and on Wurmcoil engine, he needs to be killed for having its effect. That's why the "leaves play" condition makes Thragtusk better than Wurmcoil engine : "Leaves play" >> "Dies", most in Legacy !

Do you agree, metamet ?

PLus, but it's specific to my list, Thragtusk is a very good Natural order-target AND Natural order-sacrifice for the cost too !

I wonder why do you really want to play Baleful strix, if it's because it's a good blocker (Fly + Deathtouch), I'll answer you, there's no need to destroy the blocked creature, if you block it every turn with a Wall of blossoms, it's enough cos you play combo, you just need to buy some turns against aggro.
But that's right that Baleful strix is good for blocking Flying creatures !

Anyway, would you test on Cockatrice ? I can't find you there !

[metamet]

Unfortunately I don't play on Cockatrice (or online, for that matter... my MTGO name is being used by a few other friends, hah) due to not really having the free time/ambition to sit down at a computer in my free time. :/

I see your argument about Thragtusk and it makes sense, but I wonder how much more valuable it would be to have a Empathable lifegainer over one that you have to natural draw into?

And Strix's ability to not only block creatures but also kill them becomes very valuable when you face off against any form of Delver, Goyf (which can kill Walls a lot of the time), Ooze, Knight or hatebears. Might be a case where a 3/3 split (like Birds and Shaman) would work best for you.

I haven't had any issues with Strix's mana yet, but I have been using him as the start of a chain or waiting until I untap with the proper mana.

[Darkenslight]

I see your argument about Thragtusk and it makes sense, but I wonder how much more valuable it would be to have a Empathable lifegainer over one that you have to natural draw into?

The two that spring to mind are Platinum Angel and Celestial Force. The main problems are that one doesn't actually gain you life, and the other one doesn't until the next turn.

[grokh]

I see your argument about Thragtusk and it makes sense, but I wonder how much more valuable it would be to have a Empathable lifegainer over one that you have to natural draw into?

What you said just gave me an idea. Have to natural draw into it ?
You forgot something, Thragtusk is creature so it could justify to play Natural order MD :
1) Alternate win-con MD
2) Tutor for the Thragtusk solution against aggro, Thragtusk is a blocker (5/3), gives you instantly 5 life and give another 3/3 blocker if removed. Plus, exiling him with Food chain will give you one additionnal mana, just exile the token !

Or maybe playing 2 or 3 Thragtusk is another solution ... ?

What do you think of it ?

[nevilshute]

Nice to see you guys are still working on this deck. After taking an extended break from it, I'm now back playing. Having been inspired by the recent lists I've seen in this thread I've made a few minor tweaks and am now playing:

4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
2x Manipulate Fate
1x Misdirection
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Sylvan Library
4x Food Chain

4x Deathrite Shaman
3x Misthollow Griffin
3x Baleful Strix
2x Wall of Blossoms
2x Vendilion Clique
2x Fierce Empath
2x Shardless Agent
1x Aethersnipe
1x Griselbrand
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Lands
2x Tropical Island
2x Underground Sea
1x Bayou
1x Island
1x Forest
1x Swamp
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
3x Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard:
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Relic of Progenitus
2x Spell Pierce
1x Flusterstorm
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Thragtusk
1x Massacre Wurm

Biggest difference, I think, is the choice to run a singleton JtMS. I just really like the possibilities it lends us. Other than that I have chosen to include a Massacre Wurm in the SB as an Empath target that answers Goblins and other decks that swarm the board. Alternatives would be Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite for instance. But I like that the wurm is a mana cheaper. Will be bringing the deck to one of the new year's first weekly tournaments at my LGS :)

[grokh]

Hi,

I just saw this card from Gatecrash :


It could be a big draw engine for the deck in a build with Wall of blossoms and Wall of roots because Evolve ability checks power OR toughness so a 0/5 or 0/4 creature will trigger Evolve and make us draw 1 card.

Wall of blossoms will make us draw 2 cards, and Wall of roots draw 1 card !

And, the Fathom mage will become a body for blocking creatures after !

Interesting ?

[nevilshute]

I worry that it'll be too expensive a cmc. At 4cmc we'd rather cast a griffin I think. Also, at 1/1 it dies pretty easily for a 4cmc. Seems like a really cool mechanic though :)

Hi,

I just saw this card from Gatecrash :


It could be a big draw engine for the deck in a build with Wall of blossoms and Wall of roots because Evolve ability checks power OR toughness so a 0/5 or 0/4 creature will trigger Evolve and make us draw 1 card.

Wall of blossoms will make us draw 2 cards, and Wall of roots draw 1 card !

And, the Fathom mage will become a body for blocking creatures after !

Interesting ?

[metamet]

I like the board wipe options. Massacre Wurm and Elesh Norn are both great options there. Wurm is actually hard castable, which is neat.

Haven't been impressed with any spoilers yet, although I've been trying to wrap my mind around the possibilities.

I like the Jace, as I used to run two in UG. I haven't tried him in BUG, but I could definitely see the utility and use from landing him, especially with our ability to get him on board turn three if we so like. I'll tinker around with him a bit.

Didn't play last week, per the holidays, but I anticipate playing this week a bit. No new additions or tech, but I'd love to hear what others are doing and what's working out. I think the neat thing about this deck is how customizable it is, even though we have a very sound core and base to work around.

I bet there are still some black gems we haven't considered...

I also wish we could storm combo off with Tendrils of Agony. Are there any creatures (CMC>6?) that fetch Sorceries? It just seems a little too clunky when we have Emmy instead, but it's still fun to think about.

[Koby]

I also wish we could storm combo off with Tendrils of Agony. Are there any creatures (CMC>6?) that fetch Sorceries? It just seems a little too clunky when we have Emmy instead, but it's still fun to think about.

Yes! There is!
Rune-scarred Demon

[metamet]

Yes! There is!
Rune-scarred Demon

I forgot about that guy! :D

Now the only issue we have is having enough mana to cast Tendrils... if only there were a way to translate the creature mana into sorcery enabled mana.

Demon is interesting when compared to Griselbrand. The AEthersnipe, Gris trick works the same way with Rune-scarred, except we net one more mana and don't get to draw a bunch, but rather get to find that bullet. But I don't think it'd be worth it... hm.

Interesting tool to think about, though.

[civet five]

The two that spring to mind are Platinum Angel and Celestial Force. The main problems are that one doesn't actually gain you life, and the other one doesn't until the next turn.

Ancestor's Chosen, Elderscale Wurm and Pelakka Wurm are also options, and probably all much better than Celestial Force.

[Darkenslight]

I forgot about that guy! :D

Now the only issue we have is having enough mana to cast Tendrils... if only there were a way to translate the creature mana into sorcery enabled mana.

Demon is interesting when compared to Griselbrand. The AEthersnipe, Gris trick works the same way with Rune-scarred, except we net one more mana and don't get to draw a bunch, but rather get to find that bullet. But I don't think it'd be worth it... hm.

Interesting tool to think about, though.

Priest of Gix springs to mind...

[leegoo]

Priest of Gix springs to mind...

You could possibly use one of the "free" creatures to make the mana for tendrils (palinchron / great whale)

but wouldn't you just be better off tutoring maga with demon though?

[grokh]

Hi,

I just saw this card from Gatecrash spoiler :


I think it could really fit in our decks, it's a free creature and the mana provided could be use for evoking a Ingot chewer for ramping much more !

But, I'm not sure on free creatures like that, cos if you draw em and no need mana, you'll be temptated by keeping it in hand for the good moment.

I think Wall of roots is maybe better cos he provides mana AND block lots of creatures by it's 0/5 body !