Damion. What does your list look like nowadays?Originally Posted by damionblackgear
So far, this tournament basically told me nothing about any changes that needed to be made to my deck. However, infinite BUG and Miracles testing showed showed that my sideboard was good. Our TES matchup COULD be better, but it was just bad news for me when he topdecks the nuts and blind Cabal Therapies Gaddock Teeg. Boo.
-Matt
How does your sideboard look against BUG and miracles?
My sideboard that I brought to the GP was:
1 Ooze
1 Tracker
1 Pridemage
2 Needle
1 Elspeth
2 Deed
3 Hymn
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Surgical Extraction
BUG:
Bring in Ooze, Tracker, Needle, Elspeth
Bring out some hand disruption, random extras.
Miracles:
Board out irrelevant removal
Board in Needles, Eslpeth, Teeg, Hymn, Pridemage.
-Matt
I hate to bring this up because Junk has been one of my main decks for a long time, but given Jund's recent success, is there a good reason to play Junk over Jund in today's meta?
The main differences from going to red from white appear to be Bloodbraid Elf and Lightning Bolt for Knight of the Reliquary and Swords to Plowshares. Knight is one of my favourite creatures, but with Deathrites everywhere, isn't she just not as strong as she used to be? StP is unconditional creature removal, but with Abrupt Decay, I don't think StP is as important to have. Bolts also deal with turn one must-kill creatures but also provide reach and can pick off planes-walkers if needed.
Is there a good reason to continue going GBW over GBR today?
I think White or Red is completely up to the player, both work very well with the B/G base. White also gives you access to Lingering Souls if you wish. I've been finding that 7-9 maindeck removals in our deck means that opposing shamans are not as much of a problem as they are for say BUG tempo. I find that Knight is still very much a huge threat, and a great creature. Shaman has not ruined Goyf, and it will not ruin Knight either. In the combo fighting arena white gives us SB cards like Gaddock Teeg and maybe even Thalia in certain builds, while red gives us access to REB and/or Pyroblast. I do think that Jund is a bit weaker to combo, but it has been placing pretty highly in recent tournaments. I think that both Junk and Jund are great mid-range grindy decks that do very well against the many BUG variants out there, and either is a great choice. Also whichever way you go bring those Sylvan Libraries, they're just so awesome.
I battled with this:
1 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Eternal Witness
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Thrun, The Last Troll
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Abrupt Decay
4 Thoughtseize
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
3 Mox Diamond
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
Sideboard
1 Nephalia Drownyard
1 Duress
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Golgari Charm
2 Blood Moon
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Maelstrom Pulse
The Drownyard was tech vs miracles (beats top) but it did not come up. Blood Moon was for most poor manabases.
Thrun was a house all day, regardless of something being in his hand (equipment). All day people were picking him to discard over Bob or Lili (both playable the next turn and stuck). Witness pulled her weight all day long.
I didn't like Ooze at all. Batterskull was more important than Jitte (which could be replaced in the current meta).
There were limited instances where having the Decay;Pulse ratio changed in any way would've made a difference. Jace, Empty the Warrens, and against miracles (hitting top in response to fetch... this also cost me the game but was my mistake at not figuring things out before I took action).
I played against:
Maverick (0-2, drew dead both games. Matt watched parts)
TES (2-0, had to go for Gobo's instead of Tendrills. Then Blood Moon's for the win)
Merfolk (2-1 - Lords overwhelmed me game 1, 2 & 3 were overkill on my part)
Burn splash black (0-2, bad match-ups are bad. His black was for Bob, Bump, and Deathrite)
4 Color (2-0, Basically Bug with Stoneforge and Swords > Goyf and random stuff - Attrition war that I won both games due to Thrun)
U/G Enchantress (2-1, Game one I got Combo'd. 2 & 3 I beat up her manabase)
Miracles (1-2, 3 lands all game with 2 being Wastes game 1. Game 2 I decayed his top in response to a fetch and lost the game because of it).
Since the Blood Moons were more because of a challenge made in another thread, I've made some changes to the list. I basically took out Moon and Drownyard along with some other stuff that didn't do well and wasn't going to do well. I still haven't upped the Deathrite count. It wasn't an issue all day. I was able to get someone to for my diamond on the first turn. It kept them in the game for a while though. I had double thoughtseize into Bob otherwise.
Tinkering with some crafting theory. Here
This is a move I hadn't thought of before and it seems good...but why did you lose because of it?Game 2 I decayed his top in response to a fetch and lost the game because of it
Nephalia Drownyard seems pretty interesting tech against Miracles.
Because an online Top for the Miracles player means bad times for their opponents.
For Junk vs. Jund, the main difference is the amount of 2-for-1's Jund has at the moment. BBE is a great 2-for-1, but also has haste, so it threatens Jace immediately. They won't have a turn to set up a Terminus or a Supreme Verdict; Jace is in immediate danger once the Jund player gets to 4 mana, making Jace a liability if unprotected. The burn in Jund gives them a bit more reach and also more ways to kill Jace, whereas Abrupt Decay cries because it can't hit Jace.
I still like white because you have access to better general sideboard cards and Knight. Knight tutoring Wasteland is still very much a thing, and don't you forget it. Sure he might be smaller, but he's still darn good.
I know I'll be alternating back and forth between Jund and Junk, but Junk will always be my favourite
I think our tech against Jund is just what we were talking about: Knight. They have Bob, Goyf, and Deathrite. So do we. They have Bolt for our little guys, and we have Swords for their big guys. They have Liliana, we have Liliana. It really comes down to the draws and playstyle and builds in all honesty. I think Thrun definitely crushes the Jund:Junk matchup, and Elspeth definitely has game. Needle on Liliana makes them cry a bit, and we just play more removal. I think it's basically: 1) Who gets and keeps Deathrite, 2) who can keep pressure on board.
-Matt
White in most Rock lists I see is basically limited to Swords to Plowshares and KOTR. The swords really aren't needed anymore since abrupt decay is better, and maelstrom pulse is really good at the moment. Plus Liliana is basically removal which is also quite good.
If you want to run white over red the main reason is so you can fight combo through cards like Ethersworn canonist and Gaddock Teeg. As opposed to going all in on discard with hymns + thoughtseize. If you're going to run hymn in the sideboard and no white cards except for knight then yeah you might as well ditch white for blue or red. Not that those 3 decks should be merged into 1 thread. That would be dumb.
Rock, Bant, Jund: http://tappedout.net/users/godofallu/mtg-deck-folders/
Swords isn't totally irrelevant considering it hits BBE, Tombstalker and other creatures Decay can't hit. The ways to beat Abrupt Decay are to go big (Moat, Jace) or overload on targets like when Zoo beat out MM (new example being Souls and Tribal).
-Matt
He had 4 lands (3 basics + a fetch, all up) Rest in Peace and Top on the field. 1 unknown card in hand.
I had Liliana (at 5), 4 lands (1 tapped, and one green source), and top. In hand: Aburpt Decay (x1), Surgical Extraction (x2) and land (x1).
He cracked his fetch. I decided that the odds were low enough that I could risk the decay on the Top in response. On my turn I'd Lili to ensure that RiP+Helm never happened. So, I Sent Decay at the top (he didn't save) and then he played Helm. I topped, nothing (Scrub, Zenith, and something else that wasn't a green) checked again after draw, nothing. He activated for 1 on the next turn.
The better play I didn't take into consideration - I should have let it go and save the Decay, the next turn I could have pumped Lili and forced the top to the top of his library every turn if he wanted to keep Helm or had the Decay for RIP if he had played it (with it on the stack - in case he had saved his top and drawn a land). After Seeing the Zenith I would've gone for Teeg. The next turn Geddon'd his lands by color with RiP and top in opposite piles (top with blue sources). I lose Lili but he either loses top (to the would be in hand decay) or his non-waste-able white sources. Aka, Game 2. So, that's my 'bad beat' story. Hindsight's 20/20.
Drownyard was a neat idea but, it didn't do the job and probably won't without a manabase to support it. I'm not willing to stretch my already greedy manabase more. It was better than Maze in the matchup but I think Stronghold will be a better thing in that board slot.
My two cents on the Jund/Junk comparison. Most of the Creatures pair up. They have the Extra Lili which are annoying but most of you have 3-4 Decay so she shouldn't be the worst of things to take care of. The biggest differences are the amount of removal we run vs Bloodbraid's pure spell advantage. Them being able to cast 2 cards is annoying. You should be able to limit their color production/hand-size though. That's the soft spot in the list. Needing RGBB isn't an easy thing when wastelands and swords are being used on most of your mana producing cards. The longer the game goes, the more likely it is to benefit us (my theory) and I think this is because we have SO much removal that we can even up post 2;1.
Vs other decks, Burn will always be good vs planeswalkers and that's the only real difference. That's also part of the reason I used Thrun. I do like they extra Lili they have to fight things like that and that's where Stronghold would come in. We should be able to deal with their Shaman.
Pray they never decide to merge with a good Flow Rock list.
Tinkering with some crafting theory. Here
In his article, Matt made a bold (yet not widely opposed) statement, that Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman are the two cards, that turned Rock to a tier 1 deck. Those two cards however have better synergy with red shell than with white. Swords has anty-synergy with both +2 and -2 of shaman, where bolt not only allows you to burn him for 5 from one card, but also can provide your shaman with yummy food. The fact, that bolt can't kill goyfs and knights was a huge problem for red decks in general for a long time now, but that is supplemented by decays. While there are still occasional Tobstalkers between bolt and decay Jund player has a nice coverage. On the other hand in matchups that don't really depend on board presence, bgw player will often find him/herself sitting with 7 removal cards that don't do much. Those exact machups are the ones you need to race your opponent as well.
However while to Jund 'core' cards work better together, the main issue for it are all the other cards. I am surprised that in the Knights discussion noone brogught my main concern about changing white to red - Karakas. Attacking enemy with wasteland chain is a nice angle of attack, but you may always attack from different direction. Clinging to life with Maze of Ith sometimes wins games, but that is narrow as well. However there is nothing that singlehandedly changes some relevant machups - such as Show and Tell - from very hard to quite favored as much as Karakas does. Jund player must depend on Liliana here (or ultra discard disruption, but we all know that does not always work as well as one would hope for), but she is slow, clumsy and can't be s'n'told in. GY decks should be on a backfoot for a quite long time, but Bojuka Bomb requires a honorable mention here as well.
Another problem for Jund is that Bloodbraid Elf on top of causing your Lilianas, Jittes and Libraries to have anty-synergy with themselves, prevents you from running good cards such as Green Sun's Zenith. While you have much less to zenith for without white and many players don't play gsz in rock lists anyway the reason I mention it here is that between those two tutor effects (kotr and gsz) rock has achieved an unprecedented consistency. Jund is a swing back in a direction of 'if it works it is great, but often it just doesn't'. While I love playing red I feel that unless a really good Bloodbraid Elf replacement is printed in the next two Gruul sets, Jund will be highly inferior in 'good against all decks' department.
However, what may yet turn the tides of battle and I am really looking forward to is a Burning Wish Jund list. Wish however is very meta dependent and while it can Massacre Maverick, the deck is sadly on a backfood nowadays.
The way I see it is: BGx, in any of its forms, trumps most of the "fair" decks with Hymn, Discard, Goyf, Decay, and Shaman, and tends to be poor against good combo decks. The splash of W, R, or U really just supplements that core, and you have plenty of card choices to add functionality in different ways. So you have two options: tool your BGx Midrange to beat the mirror if you expect it to be prevalent (which leads to Jund and Shardless BUG, with additional card advantage engines from Cascade) or to shore up the bad matchup and try to beat combo (BUG with plenty of counters.)
I still think I want to play Junk on Thursday, but I'm a-tuning at this moment. I'll update if there's anything relevant that comes up.
-Matt
So here's what I'm planning on playing tonight:
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sylvan Library
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Garruk Relentless
Same regular list. Board might change:
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Golgari Charm/Zealous Persecution
2 Pithing Needle
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Surgical Extraction
Ideally I'd like to grind the sideboard against Esper as well, but I don't have the time at the moment :/
-Matt
What does your manabase look like?
@Jund: I mostly agree with what has been said already, with the added caveat that BBE isn't anywhere near the same power level as kotr. Yes cascading into bob, goyf or lilly is quite good, but you can also hit useless multiples as stated earlier or ibto something useless like removal w/o a target, etc. It also does not belong in this thread
"Don't mess with me, lady. I've been drinking with skeletons."
I write articles about Legacy Death and Taxes. Check them out.
I think it depends on how you looks at it[Junk;Jund comparison]. There was an overlooked point that was brought up above regarding knight also being it's land base that supports it. BBE has haste. That's your trade-off.
I'm not trying to make it sound like that's a bad trade-off by any means. The format is almost all Planeswalkers right now. Hasted creatures are a powerful thing vs them. They work at sorcery speed. that's part of the reason I picked Thrun. Only Lili interacts positively with him. BBE is the most efficient at his cost (which dodges decay).
I think figuring out how to battle planeswalkers is a relatively new thing for us. I say that because outside of Jace, Liliana, and Elspeth, there hasn't been any real planeswalker activity that's taken an active role in legacy. Jace was the most prevalent since he was blue and brainstormed, the others were here and there. This last GP showed that they are now (being) more heavily adapted into the format. At least, more than they were before.
Tinkering with some crafting theory. Here
I wanted to post what I'm running and get some feedback if anyone has any. Note that I don't own a Karakas or Tarmogoyf or Thoughtsieze.
4x Marsh Flats
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Scrubland
3x Bayou
1x Horizon Canopy
2x Wasteland
1x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Nantuko Monastery
1x Savannah
1x Dryad Arbor
4x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
2x Eternal Witness
2x Vindicate
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Abrupt Decay
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Lingering Souls
3x Sylvan Library
3x Duress
2x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Liliana of the Veil
Sideboard
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Gaddock Teeg
2x Zealous Persecution
2x Pithing Needle
2x Choke
2x Hymn to Tourach
1x Ulvenwald Tracker
2x Timely Reinforcements
Thanks.
So how did you do in the torney Matt?
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