Food Chain Combo

[nevilshute]

If we wanted to have the opportunity to storm for the win then why not choose a cheaper option than Tendrils seeing as we're going to have infinite storm counters anyway? Thinking Brain Freeze or even Grapeshot although that would be sub-optimal due to the red mana.

I don't really like having to depend on non-Food Chain mana in order to win so I think I'll steer clear of any storm shenanigans. Alternatively there's always my old friend Maga, Traitor to Mortals if you want to one-shot for the win ;)

[metamet]

Not a fan of Burning-Tree Emissary, as it's basically a worse Cloud of Fairies. :)

I suppose the thought of Storming out is more novel than it is actually a good idea, since Emmy is just better all around.

[grokh]

Hi,

I had some new ideas
1) Baleful strix

For me, the main utility of Baleful strix is to block flying creatures like Delver of secrets/Vendilion clique and kill em, isn't it ?

BUT, i just found out a new creature which fits much in our deck and without needing a splash ...

Here's the discovery : Cloudthresher.

Why is it awesome against flying threats ?
- It has Flash, you can surprize your opponent with it
- It has Evoke, if you need some mana advantage with the Food chain : - manas (Evoke) + manas (FC) -> + manas ramp ! (the same than a Mulldrifter : - manas (Evoke) + manas (FC) -> + manas ramp too)
- It's a 7/7 Reach body, that's really not a weak creature, so it's like a Deathtouch for blocking a Tarmogoyf (You spoke about deahtouch quality against Tarmogoyf/Knight of the reliquary), if not evoked he'll block all eventual following flyers without dying
- It'll deal 2 damage to each flying creature, enough to instant kill all flying in Legacy (Delver/Clique ...)
- It costs manas, can be tutored by Fierce empath
- It can be tutored by Natural order too
- It deals damage to your opponent too when entering

2) the second idea comes from the 1st, why not building around a Natural order + Fierce empath toolbox ?
We could have Terastodon (artifacts, enchantments etc ...), Cloudthresher (flying threats), Pelakka wurm (for low life situations) and we could imagine much more.

Plus, Natural order could bring us more kill solutions, by Worldspine wurm in my build for example.
So we pass from 4 Food chain to 4 Food chain + X Natural order as win-cons (in my case X=3)

Thoughts ?

[nevilshute]

Finally brought this deck to a tournament again and it was an over all positive experience. It was a 40-man tournament at my LGS with a Swiss, six-round tournament structure. I ended up going 4-2 and missing out on prizes.

Rnd 1: vs Death and Taxes: Won 2-0
This was against one of the best players at my LGS and the best Death and Taxes pilot I've ever met (Thomas Enevoldsen, in case you're a Death and Taxes enthusiast) so I was quite nervous to be drawn against him. Game 1: while we were shuffling he asked why I wasn't playing Food Chain anymore. I didn't want to give away that I actually was and it would prove important as he played a Phyrexian Revoker on turn 2 and, having only seen a couple of blue duals and a Deathrite Shaman on my side of the table, he named Jace, the Mind Sculptor. He wasn't able to apply much pressure for about 3 more turns and I comboed off. Game 2: Abrupt Decay took care of an Ethersworn and I was able to combo off again through Thalia.

Rnd 2: vs Birthing Pod: Lost 1-2
This was a little odd. I was paired against a guy playing a Modern deck. There's a Modern PTQ this week and the guy - who was a very skillful player - was there to practice. I narrowly took game 1 getting Griselbrand and three Griffins down. Game 2 I end up losing after a costly error in judgement early on: I have an Abrupt Decay in hand as well as 1 Force of Will and a blue cards and Food Chain and Manipulate Fate. Turn 2 he plays an Ethersworn Canonist. Almost instinctively I Force it. Almost as soon as I've announced it, I look at my Abrupt Decay and regret wasting my Force. Three turns later I have four lands, a Baleful Strix on the board and 3 griffins exiled and a Food Chain, Vendilion Clique, Fierce Empath and... my Abrupt Decay in hand. I play Food Chain tapping 3 of my 4 lands. In response he Path to Exiles my strix. If I had kept my Force for the PtE I would have gone off then and there. Instead I'm forced to pass the turn and he Harmonic Slivers my Food Chain away. A couple of turns later he combos off. Game 3 I lose, again from a mistake as I Vendilion Clique and fail to spot that he has both Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and Deceiver Exarch in hand. Instead I choose his Harmonic Sliver and I lose when he untaps. This was the 3rd turn of time. I was of course upset with my misplay and it was more or less down to unfamiliarity with the cards I was up against and feeling stressed out a bit as we were in time. But take nothing away from my opponent who played his deck expertly.

Rnd 3: vs. GW Modern deck: Won 2-0
Another guy there to prep for modern ptq. Unlike my previous opponent this guy's deck was severely underpowered to fight a legacy deck and I took both games relatively painlessly.

Rnd 4: vs. Dredge: Lost 1-2
This was the make-or-break game and, unfortunately I lost. I'm not terribly familiar playing against Dredge and the pilot is quite skillful. I lost game 1 without much of a fight. Game 2 I won, hosing him with 1x Relic of Progenitus, 2x Surgical Extractions as well as dropping 2x Deathrite Shamans. Game 3 I mulled to six and kept a questionable hand of 2x DRShaman, 1x Ponder and 3 fetchlands on the draw. My opponent goes City of Brass into Cabal Therapy naming... Deathrite Shaman. I never recovered and he took it.

Rnd 5: vs. Maverick: Won 2-1
Game 1 I mulled to 4 on the play and saw: Force of Will, Brainstorm, Brainstorm, Manipulate Fate. Not wanting to go down further and feeling quite deflated I kept and said 'go'. He plays land -> Noble Hierarch, go. I draw: Force of Will. Go. He plays land and tries to resolve Thalia. I Force, pitching one of my Brainstorms. He says go. I draw, still no land, but a Misthollow Griffin. Go. He plays a Qasali PM and I force pitching my griffin. Next turn I actually get a land - basic island. I pass and he doesn't get anything, attacking me down to 18 with his hierarch. I draw, brainstorm and I actually recover from here to take the game. I lose game 2 and we get into an epic game 3 that I was certain I would lose at one point but double Dread of Night eventually gets me there.

Rnd. 6: vs RUG Delver: Won 2-1
Playing against a friend of mine I mulled to 5 and lost game 1. Post board I was in much better shape going - 1x force, 1x misdirection, 1x Aethersnipe and 1x Griselbrand; + 3x Abrupt Decay and 1x Relic of Progenitus. My 3x Baleful Strix and 2 Wall of Blossoms really are awesome against RUG and comboed off in both game 2 and 3 (though in one of the games I had reached my "critical mass" turn where I had to go off or I'd die to goyf + flipped delver).

All in all: Deathrite Shaman is down right great for us, and having black means access to some great sideboard options. Abrupt Decay really means that the worst hosers against us historically (Revoker, Canonist) are just not that scary anymore. One thing I'd like to think about is to roll with some Ancient Tombs again. Rarely was I able to go off until turn 4 or 5 and that feels slow, especially against other combo decks.

Here's the list I ran:

4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
2x Manipulate Fate
1x Misdirection

4x Food Chain
1x Sylvan Library
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4x Deathrite Shaman
3x Misthollow Griffin
3x Baleful Strix
2x Wall of Blossoms
2x Vendilion Clique
2x Shardless Agent
2x Fierce Empath
1x Aethersnipe
1x Griselbrand
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

2x Tropical Island
2x Underground Sea
1x Bayou
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
3x Verdant Catacombs
1x Forest
1x Island
1x Swamp

Sideboard:
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Relic of Progenitus
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Dread of Night
2x Spell Pierce
1x Flusterstorm
1x Thragtursk
1x Massacre Wurm

[StoneColdEffy]

This list came 5th in a 52 man event in Japan.

http://www.happymtg.com/decks/view/D040574

[metamet]

This list came 5th in a 52 man event in Japan.

http://www.happymtg.com/decks/view/D040574

Here's the list, for reference:

Main Deck Sideboard
4 "霧深い雨林/ Misty Rainforest"
7 "冠雪の島/ Snow-Covered Island"
7 "冠雪の森/ Snow-Covered Forest"
18 Lands

2 "极楽鸟/ Birds of Paradise"
4 "貴族の教主/ Noble Hierarch"
4 "花の壁/ Wall of Blossoms"
2 "ヴェンディリオン三人衆/ Vendilion Clique"
3 "激情の共感者/ Fierce Empath"
4 "霧虚ろのグリフィン/ Misthollow Griffin"
4 "熟考漂い/ Mulldrifter"
2 "誘惑蒔き/ Sower of Temptation"
2 "死儀礼のシャーマン/ Deathrite Shaman"
1 "収穫の魂/ Soul of the Harvest"
1 "霊気撃ち/ AEthersnipe"
1 "グリセルブランド/ Griselbrand"
1 "引き裂かれし永劫,エムラクール/ Emrakul, the Aeons Torn"
1 "聖別されたスフィンクス/ Consecrated Sphinx"
32 Creatures

4 "Force of Will"
2 "誤った指図/ Misdirection"
4 "食物连锁/ Food Chain"
10 Spells


60 Mainbord Cards

3 "大祖始の遺産/ Relic of Progenitus"
1 "墓掘りの檻/ Grafdigger's Cage"
1 "トーモッドの墓所/ Tormod's Crypt"
2 "狼狽の嵐/ Flusterstorm"
2 "クローサの掌握/ Krosan Grip"
2 "三なる宝球/ Trinisphere"
2 "花の絨毯/ Carpet of Flowers"
2 "仕組まれた爆薬/ Engineered Explosives"
15 Sideboard Cards

Interesting return to the UG shell. Curious as to the lack of cantrips, but I'd like to see how it runs. Soul of the Harvest was a curiosity before, but it felt like you need Food Chain online already for it to be worthwhile.

[metamet]

And Simic Charm might have home in a UG shell, as the Unsummon and Hexproof are both valuable modes we sometimes need:

Choose one - Target creature gets +3/+3 until end of turn; permanents you control gain hexproof until end of turn; or return target creature to its owner's hand.

[StoneColdEffy]

So I'm interested in this deck. Wondering what are the merits/disadvantages of the UG, BUG and Recruiter versions? Also what are the deck's good MUs and bad MUs? And does this deck actually have a chance of winning if you don't draw Food Chain?

[Koby]

So I'm interested in this deck. Wondering what are the merits/disadvantages of the UG, BUG and Recruiter versions? Also what are the deck's good MUs and bad MUs? And does this deck actually have a chance of winning if you don't draw Food Chain?

Complexity, consistency, and card availability.

The first is governed by how many "alternate" paths the deck can take to win.
The second is governed by how the deck digs through its important pieces. Imperial Recruiter, cantrips, and cantrip creatures (i.e., Elvish Visionary / Soul of the Harvest) achieve.
The third is obviously dependent on your collection.

[metamet]

So I'm interested in this deck. Wondering what are the merits/disadvantages of the UG, BUG and Recruiter versions? Also what are the deck's good MUs and bad MUs? And does this deck actually have a chance of winning if you don't draw Food Chain?

I firmly believe that the BUG list is the most dynamic and consistent list available. It relies less on Food Chain's resolution for a win than the others do and gives us access to the likes of Abrupt Decay.

You can win with Deathrites and Griffins, which most people don't actually expect with constant guard against FC. It also offers the ability to win out of nowhere (with style) without requiring Show and Tell.

Sleeve it up and do some gold fishing. Its one of my favorite decks to pilot and allows for tweaking and experimenting with new cards. Although I'm convinced some aren't worth running, you still can tweak to your liking. :)

[StoneColdEffy]

I firmly believe that the BUG list is the most dynamic and consistent list available. It relies less on Food Chain's resolution for a win than the others do and gives us access to the likes of Abrupt Decay.

You can win with Deathrites and Griffins, which most people don't actually expect with constant guard against FC. It also offers the ability to win out of nowhere (with style) without requiring Show and Tell.

Sleeve it up and do some gold fishing. Its one of my favorite decks to pilot and allows for tweaking and experimenting with new cards. Although I'm convinced some aren't worth running, you still can tweak to your liking. :)

What's your most updated list? And how do you feel about inclusion of Natural Order and/or Dream Halls for more ways to go off?

EDIT: Card avaiability isn't a problem. My main issue is I want to know how this fairs against other decks and what its merits are over say, other combo decks.

[nevilshute]

What's your most updated list? And how do you feel about inclusion of Natural Order and/or Dream Halls for more ways to go off?

EDIT: Card avaiability isn't a problem. My main issue is I want to know how this fairs against other decks and what its merits are over say, other combo decks.

I've played extensively with Natural Order, both in the main deck and as a sideboard plan in this deck but never with Dream Halls. NO gives the deck more explosiveness but lessens consistency imo and I eventually opted to drop it. You can check my most recent list further up on this page.

When I played this deck originally just as UG it was quite vulnerable to decks that put a fast clock on you, such as burn decks, RUG/BUG Delver decks and Maverick. It would also in general be quite vulnerable to sideboard hosing such as from Ethersworn Canonist and Phyrexian Revoker. But with the inclusion of black and cards such as Baleful Strix and Deathrite Shaman we have a much better way to prolong the game versus a flipped delver or a Knight of the Reliquary, and Abrupt Decay gives us a multi tool versus hosers.

[metamet]

What's your most updated list? And how do you feel about inclusion of Natural Order and/or Dream Halls for more ways to go off?

EDIT: Card avaiability isn't a problem. My main issue is I want to know how this fairs against other decks and what its merits are over say, other combo decks.

My currently list:

MAIN:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
2 Wall of Blossoms
2 Shardless Agent
3 Misthollow Griffin
3 Fierce Empath
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 AEthersnipe
1 Griselbrand
2 Vendilion Clique

1 Sylvan Library
4 Food Chain

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
2 Lim-Duls Vault
2 Manipulate Fate

1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant catacombs

SB:
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Spell Pierce
3 Surgical Extraction
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Wurmcoil Engine



The LDVs are still up for testing, but I have liked them when I've had them. No conclusions there.

For the NO plan, I used to run it in the sideboard when I played UG. It could fit in the current SB depending on your meta, but I haven't missed it all that much lately. The Wurmcoil is in there as an Empath target against aggro, Gobbies and even Burn, and I've been a big fan of it.

[metamet]

Just thought of another alt win that's fetchable by Fierce Empath:



I wouldn't jump on this as actually being good, but with Food Chain and Griffin, we could get past the likes of Ensnaring Bridge.

Any other enters/leaves the battlefield effects on a stick we could play with?

[MaximumC]

I ran this list in my local sanctioned Vintage scene for awhile, the only big change being that I ran Omnath as my secondary win condition. He was great because he came down early and could beat better than Tarmagoyf if I was digging, and he swings for infinite once you get Griffin going. The big problem, of course, is that he gets chump blocked.

For reference, my win package was something like this:

3x Fierce Empath
1x Aethersnipe
1x Grislebrand
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2x Omnath, Lord of Mana

I like the Extractor Demon plan. Particularly because he is good exactly when Omnath is not. Omnath is great against an empty board, such as you might encounter against Show and Tell. Extractor wins regardless of the enemy, but loses if the enemy deck contains Eldrazi, such as Show and Tell.

Interesting.

Any other enters/leaves the battlefield effects on a stick we could play with?

Your options are:

1) Lifegain.
Soul Sisters (Soul Warden, Healer of the Pride, etc) and, Angelic Chorus (infinite life, but its either a useless white weenie or a pricey enchantment that doesnt fit in this deck. The green Warden is interesting I guess.)

2) Pump.
Champion of Lambholt, now that I look at it, looks potentially even better than Omnath as a 3cc win condition. It goes infinite like Omnath, but it doesn't get blocked like him. Of course, it's also worse in isolation.
Cathat's Crusade is another expensive useless enchantment here.
Goldknight Commander, Herd Gnarr, Hamletback Goliath, Juniper Order Ranger are trash AND super expensive!

3) Creatures
Genesis Chamber makes infinite Myr. So I guess you can win after passing the turn. Hooray...?
Minion Reflector is better, makes infinite hasty Griffins. But costs 5 mana and is not a creature.

4) Damage
Warstorm Surge, Pandemonium - Wins, but is not a creature and is pricey.

5) Comedy Option
Tainted Aether- Sacrifice your whole board other than Griffin and Food Chain yaaaay

[metamet]

He also needs to be countered twice to stop, but that likely wont be an edge considering we need Food Chain to land beforehand anyway. :)

How did you adapt the list for Vintage? That's really cool!

[MaximumC]

He also needs to be countered twice to stop, but that likely wont be an edge considering we need Food Chain to land beforehand anyway. :)

How did you adapt the list for Vintage? That's really cool!

Here's a thread about it over at the mana drain: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=44356.0

The biggest difference is what you are worried about in the two formats. The decks to beat in Vintage consist mainly of "Big Blue" decks that try to combo out with Tinker->Blightsteel / Vault->Key / Jace / Tendrils of Agony and protect themsleves with countermagic and duress effects; Oath decks which combo out a fattie quickly while protecting themselves the same way; Shops, which lock you out with sphere effects immediately; Dredge, which wins from the yard terrifyingly fast, and various hatebear decks like Dark Times or White Trash.

My list:

Combo Package (13)
4x Food Chain
4x Misthollow Griffin
2x Fierce Empath
1x Grislebrand
1x Aethersnipe
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Mana Dorks (9)
4x Noble Hierarch
3x Birds of Paradise
2x Wall of Roots

Other Accell (2)
1x Sol Ring
1x Mox Emerald

Lands (18)
3x Ancient Tomb
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Flooded Strand
4x Tropical Island
1x Underground Sea
1x Bayou
2x Forest
2x Island

Dig (5)
1x Brainstorm
1x Ponder
1x Intuiton
1x Demonic Consultation
1x Skeletal Scrying

Countermagic (9)
4x Force of Will
1x Misdirection
4x Spell Pierce

Aggro Option (4)
2x Scavenging Ooze
2x Omnath, Locus of Mana

SIDEBOARD

2x Sower of Temptation
3x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Steel Sabotge
3x Nature’s Claim
2x Trygon Predator
4x Null Rod

I wasn't running Deathrite Shaman because it didn't exist yet, but I think that replaces some of the mana dorks and the Oozes. I also was not running Manipulate Fate at the time.

EDIT: Post Return to Ravnica, I think I'd try something like this:

Combo Package (13)
4x Food Chain
4x Misthollow Griffin
2x Fierce Empath
1x Grislebrand
1x Aethersnipe
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Mana Dorks (8)
4x Deathrite Shaman
2x Birds of Paradise
2x Wall of Roots

Other Accell (2)
1x Sol Ring
1x Mox Emerald

Lands (18)
3x Ancient Tomb
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Flooded Strand
4x Tropical Island
1x Underground Sea
1x Bayou
2x Forest
2x Island

Dig (5)
1x Brainstorm
1x Ponder
2x Manipulate Fate
1x Skeletal Scrying

Disruption (11)
4x Force of Will
1x Misdirection
4x Spell Pierce
2x Abrupt Decay

Aggro Option (4)
2x Scavenging Ooze
2x Omnath, Locus of Mana

SIDEBOARD

2x Ylixid Jailer
3x Leyline of the Void
1x Steel Sabotge
3x Nature’s Claim
2x Trygon Predator
4x Null Rod

In fact, maybe I'll give this a spin tomorrow night. You've inspired me :)

[Darkenslight]

What about Vela, the Night-Clad? Infinite life loss with Griffin and Food Chain out. The issue is obtaining the black when you're comboing out.

[StoneColdEffy]

Ok well I proxied up metamet's list but -1 Shardless Agent since I'm not a fan of 61 card lists and the Agent seemed like the easiest cut. I'll be flying to Sydney for a big legacy event this weekend (playing another deck there) but hopefully will be able to test some games with good players with this deck. I did some goldfishing right now and I like the feel of it, and Sylvan Library seems very good but I guess the life loss on it is pretty big.

[metamet]

What about Vela, the Night-Clad? Infinite life loss with Griffin and Food Chain out. The issue is obtaining the black when you're comboing out.

Could work! Black shouldn't be a problem because Griffins gives us infinite every color forever. Plus, BUG plays black. :)

Ok well I proxied up metamet's list but -1 Shardless Agent since I'm not a fan of 61 card lists and the Agent seemed like the easiest cut. I'll be flying to Sydney for a big legacy event this weekend (playing another deck there) but hopefully will be able to test some games with good players with this deck. I did some goldfishing right now and I like the feel of it, and Sylvan Library seems very good but I guess the life loss on it is pretty big.

I've taken plenty of Sylvan damage, but typically only when it wins me the game that turn. And glad to hear you've sleeved it up! Let us know what you discover in playing it!